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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 7/2/2003 3:55 PM (GMT -6)

OK, the other recent posts on Hell have gotten me to start thinking about this again. I'm curious- are there any tradtional "fire and brimstone" believers out there- who believe in a literal hell of eternal torture for all those who do not accept Christ consciously?
If so I am curious about your thoughts on how this can be. If you think about our notions of justice on earth - the punishment is supposed to fit the crime. The 8th amendment prevents against cruel and unusual punishment. Now I know we are fallen human beings who don't have all understanding presently. But how is it that God - the definition of omnibenevolent - would not take into consideration the crime when imposing the punishment?

And why would the punishment be eternal? Think about that for a moment. Actually our minds can't comprehend eternity, let alone eternal torture. I think that most people, especially most Christians, would employ forgiveness eventually for someone, after they've "served their time"- for a Christian to want vengeance is considered wrong. And that's b/c, according to scripture, Vengeance is God's. So how can our notions of justice and forgiveness be so different than God's? Also, Christ says in the NT that we are obligated to forgive our brother seventy times seven times...in other words, indefinitely. Are we obligated to forgive if the person has not apologized to us and begged our forgiveness? In scripture God says if we do not forgive, he will not forgive us. This isn't qualified by saying, "You must forgive if someone asks forgiveness, but you don't have to if that person never asks forgiveness." I've always been taught that the correct Christian attitude is forgiveness towards someone who sins against us, even if the person is not remorseful . Harboring bitterness and anger and a desire for revenge only hurts yourself. So how come God doesn't adhere to this same standard- if you believe he does exact vengeance?

How do you reconcile this type of punishment with a loving and just God? Let's say we're not talking about the "chieftest of sinners" here, but rather a God fearing Jew, or a person in the middle of the Saharan who has never heard of Christ.

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum in theological circles, but I am interested in hearing what some posters might have to say.

"If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." - John Lennon

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 7/2/2003 5:03 PM (GMT -6)

ReasonableDoubt

quote:

Actually our minds can't comprehend eternity, let alone eternal torture.

RD, just think of Junior High

forever....

"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."
-- George Santayana

Laplace
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138

Posted 7/2/2003 8:38 PM (GMT -6)

ReasonableDoubt,

I agree, your questions are valid ones, and a main objection to Christian doctrine. Since our time here on earth is finite, how can that translate to infinite punishment. Of course, likewise could be said about infinite reward.

If you're wondering if Hell is a literal "hot place" with everyone screaming in pain for eternity, then I would say it is not so. The Bible states that everyone will be judged according to their acts done on earth. Jesus said those who had more light and status in life would be judged more harshly.

I don't think we can come up with a 100% (or even 90%) accurate picture of Hell other than it is a place where God's presence (or at least all but His judgement) is void and that people will be in discomfort.

"The Great Divorce" by CS Lewis to me pointed out a couple speculations about Hell that I never considered but find reasonable to accept (by the way, he never claimed it to be a formal treatise on the afterlife, but that doesn't invalidate his insight in the work).

One is that people in hell are extremely self-absorbed. Meaning that there is a lack of any sense of community unlike Heaven which will have the ultimate form of community. So the inhabitants of Hell will not form any sort of government, family, or even "support groups".

Another is that in Hell people will tend to want to remain miserable. Seems incomprehensible, I know. But you've seen folks who'd rather remain in misery alone blaming everything and everyone (including themselves) than to embrace the love and hope that God offered to them. I can imagine some there will constantly say things like, "I don't understand why God would save so and so...I guess He's not so great after all...Heaven must be a terrible place to be in,...". That is why it is often said those in Hell even if given the choice, would choose to stay there.

Finally, I personally believe that unlike Heaven, people will experience the passage of time. Those who become so absorbed with something as beautiful and lovely as the presence of God will not even sense time fly by as one does in the presence of an attractive member of the opposite sex. And so, for those in Hell part of the punishment will be the time spent in recalling their lives, the wrong choices they've made, and brooding over their current situation.

However, this all does not mean that there won't be any physical torment in Hell. I think that all punishments (physical, mental, emotional, etc.) will be apportioned justly by God. I like how one person put it. "There are no appeals to God's sentencing. But since everyone will understand their crime and subsequent punishment no one will feel the need to."

This should not trivialize Hell though and make it seem like a "not-so-bad" place to be. Quite the opposite. The fact that since everyone will be judged before Christ and those who rejected Him will understand the gravity of their crime should be enough to seriously consider where our faith lies. I admit though the concept of "eternal punishment" is hard to swallow. Even harder to swallow the knowledge that MOST people (not a few, not half, but MOST) will end up there. Again, there are no easy answers. But again I believe for most of those "mosts" will be so self-absorbed that they may not view it as punishment as we understand because they do not long for God's presence.

I fear Hell (or a bad afterlife) above all things given the implications. Knowing that if any one of the major religions which teach exclusivity (Christianity, Islam, Judiasim, etc.) are correct then the majority of Humanity will not receive the "good" afterlife. But I believe that God will judge people on their hearts, and that there will be those who even do not hear the name of Christ physically, can still be saved.

"We ought to be nicer to fellow Christians. After all, these are the folks we will be spending eternity with." -M.Y.

"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 7/2/2003 8:42 PM (GMT -6)

Hi RD,

I believe in the traditional understanding of hell. I do not, however, believe that any are cast into hell on account of ignorance; rather, people go to hell because of willfully choosing to reject God (SIN). The idea that all are under condemnation because of their free choice to rebel against God is fully developed in Romans chs. 1, 2, and 3. Chapter 2 at least holds out the possibility that one might theoretically be able to obey the law of God (conscience, in this case) insofar as he understood it. But again let me reiterate no one will find themselves condemned by God through no fault of their own. This is one issue on which I heartily agree with Edwards' classic sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," in which he basically says one sin justly deserves hell forever, and the only reason any are saved is because of the sheer mercy of God on their behalf.

In addition I think it important to note that I find the Scripture to teach degrees of punishment in hell, just as it teaches degrees of rewards in heaven. Perhaps a small consolation, but then again it does away with the manifestly unjust notion that a Hitler would suffer no more and no less than anyone else for eternity.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 07/03/2003 04:26:09 AM

Laplace
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138

Posted 7/2/2003 9:07 PM (GMT -6)

John Earp,

I agree to some extent. I don't think anyone will be on earth one day, and the next say to themselves, "Where am I? Why is it so hot here? And what am I doing in this handbasket?"

However, I disagree that sin itself requires willful knowledge of doing it. Otherwise there would be no regulations in the OT for "unintentional sins". A sin is still one in God's eyes even if it's aware of or not. Jesus both said that those crucifying Him didn't know what they were doing and that there would be others who would kill Christians thinking they were doing GOOD for God.

But in regards to Salvation, I certainly align myself that everyone has sufficient light to be saved regardless of where they are on earth. This light however, I think, takes different forms. Some may hear the entire formalized Gospel with "the prayer". For others, it may just be knowing that God is not some wood or stone idol and that he/she is inheritly wicked and cries out to the "true God" to save him.

But let's not be too liberal in our interpretation of "light" here and adopt a Universalist view towards religion. The Bible clearly says that those who reject Jesus as the Christ (those that know Him) reject the Father also. That means Muslims and Jews who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah, or Son of God cannot be saved.

"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 7/2/2003 10:35 PM (GMT -6)

Laplace
I agree to some extent. I don't think anyone will be on earth one day, and the next say to themselves, "Where am I? Why is it so hot here? And what am I doing in this handbasket?"

However, I disagree that sin itself requires willful knowledge of doing it. Otherwise there would be no regulations in the OT for "unintentional sins".

John

The topic of unintentional sins is very obscure, with only one reference in all of Scripture that I am aware of. The overwhelming evidence of Scripture is that sin is, as a rule, always a voluntary transgression of a known law. What Lev. 4 teaches us is that if we have been committing a sin without realizing it, upon its realization we must repent of it as well, and look in faith the the atonement for forgiveness.

Laplace

A sin is still one in God's eyes even if it's aware of or not. Jesus both said that those crucifying Him didn't know what they were doing and that there would be others who would kill Christians thinking they were doing GOOD for God.

John

Okay, let me see if I'm hearing you correctly. In your view, the people crucifying and mocking Jesus didn't know they were crucifying and mocking Him? It seems to me that what Jesus must have meant was "they don't realize precisely the nature of their crime, for of course they had to be cognizant of their actions, however ignorant they were of the real nature of what was happening.

Laplace

But let's not be too liberal in our interpretation of "light" here and adopt a Universalist view towards religion. The Bible clearly says that those who reject Jesus as the Christ (those that know Him) reject the Father also. That means Muslims and Jews who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah, or Son of God cannot be saved.

John

I'm definitely not a universalist, not in the least. Saying that there remains the possibility of someone walking in obedience to God without having full knowledge of the Gospel does not mean that any in fact do this, just that "all are guilty before God." That is, all who are guilty are guilty because of their own rejection of what degree of light they do or did have.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 07/03/2003 03:46:03 AM

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 7/2/2003 10:44 PM (GMT -6)

RD

Are we obligated to forgive if the person has not apologized to us and begged our forgiveness? In scripture God says if we do not forgive, he will not forgive us. This isn't qualified by saying, "You must forgive if someone asks forgiveness, but you don't have to if that person never asks forgiveness." I've always been taught that the correct Christian attitude is forgiveness towards someone who sins against us, even if the person is not remorseful.

John

Does God forgive unconditionally? Not according to the Bible.

With regard to humans, the fact is there is nothing at all in the Bible which supports the modern, oft-cited mantra, "you have to forgive even if they don't ask for it." With both God and man, the conditions of forgiveness are by definition the same: repentance and confession.

Now this of course begs the question, "Should Christians harbor bitterness or ill-will towards another?" To which the answer is a definite "no." If we are to be like God, (merciful as He is merciful-Luke 6:36) we must have a disposition or willingness to forgive. But to actually forgive someone to their face when no repentance is forthcoming is contrary to Scripture, Reason, and Experience.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 07/03/2003 04:20:37 AM

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