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seeker35
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 7/26/2003 6:19 AM (GMT -6)

Sorry, Pow. didn't mean to offend you. Sorry I said "BS."

I thought

you were directing me to use email. Anyway, I preferred it that way, cause it's hard to admit I have questions about this poem, probably everyone else knows by heart. But, you said, ask on the site. So, I'm risking embarrassment here.

ANd No, I'm not some student looking for answers here. I'm much older than that. I'm asking for Me. Because I want to understand.

Does he mean, people do rage against death, but shouldn't, Or, is he saying what I think he is--he's talking about his father, right? I guess a gentle man. But he's saying, YES, RAGE. I agree with that. I'm not sure if I reconcile that with what little I know about Christianity. So....there's my question.
probably get no replies, but anyway, I tried.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/26/2003 9:00 AM (GMT -6)

Can you tell me what thread this was in regards to?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/26/2003 9:21 AM (GMT -6)

I tried searching, and found it here: www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&whichpage=2&TOPIC_ID=2239

Laika and I were having an arguement about whether C.S.Lewis' childrens book narrative was meaningful or meaningless when he has "death work backwards." Laika was stubbornly taking a literalist rather than a literary stance on it.

quote:
PotOnWheel Laika: "Logically meaningless poetry, "death works backwards".

Dylan Thomas: "Do Not Go Quietly Into The Night,
Rage, Rage, Rage, Against The Dying Of The Light"

b>Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

From The Poems of Dylan Thomas, published by New Directions. Copyright © 1952, 1953 Dylan Thomas.
br>

St. John Chrysostom's Easter Sermon, :

found at www.ocf.org/features/EasterSermon.html
br>. . .
Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again;
for forgiveness has risen from the grave.
Let no one fear death, for the Death of our Savior has set us free.
He has destroyed it by enduring it.

He destroyed Hades when He descended into it.
He put it into an uproar even as it tasted of His flesh.
Isaiah foretold this when he said,
"You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering Him below."

Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with.
It was in an uproar because it is mocked.
It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed.
It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated.
It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.
Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.
O death, where is thy sting?
O Hades, where is thy victory?

Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is Risen, and the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is Risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is Risen, and life is liberated!
Christ is Risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead;
for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

To Him be Glory and Power forever and ever. Amen!

================================================

I taunted Laika -- in jest:

"Forgiveness has risen from the grave." What utter illogic! What nonsense.

"Hell took a body. . .and encountered Heaven." What's this?

"The first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep." But. . .OPPOSITES.

Sometimes poetry is necessary.

Sometimes rantings -- as with Dylan Thomas' piece on the tyranny and 'wrongness' of death (What an unnatural parasite!) -- are appropriate,

Sometimes something is just so true that no amount of words even begins to define it.

I responded to Laika with this:

PotOnWheel No poetry doesn't build programming. And if you are telling me that no progams are poetic, then perhaps I should believe you. (?)

We continuted to argue.

Laika:

"Logically meaningless poetry, "death works backwards". . .may soothe the soul. . .

PoW:

Here's why the illustration Lewis used is called for. Fact is that DEATH is a parasite. Death and corruption are not part of our original design. Toil, sweat, childbirth pain are all connected with the fall. Enimity between animals and humans.

Were death a "natural" thing, then a literary divice like "working backwards" would be awkward--an intrusion into the fabric of the story. But since death itself is the intruder (and the Witch) the cause of "working backwards" fits very well in contraposto to the intrusion of death. In fact, as a literary divice the backwards-working is the exact symmetical opposite to death. The "born again" description would not be as neat a motif. Literary license prevails in literature.

What we can get from Lewis' story is the realization that what we begin to be lulled to accept as "natural" -- the linear and downwards path to death -- is truly unnatural.

Viva la Allegory!!!

Let me recomment this site: www.arimathea.co.uk/finding.htm

And this: www.arimathea.co.uk/walk.htm

www.arimathea.co.uk/image3.htm

Hope that helps.

(Glad I was lucky in finding it for you.)

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/26/2003 2:25:17 PM

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 7/26/2003 11:43 AM (GMT -6)

Um, my name is David and I am a rage-aholic! I'm proud to say that since the last post of Pow's that I've read, I've been rage free. That should be like three minutes.

dlw

I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!

Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.

ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino.

seeker35
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 7/27/2003 9:22 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the response. I read it carefully. Probably not enough, but enough for me right now. I liked the link, thanks.

are you the only one here that can get the search engine to work? I swear I tried.

So, if death is unnatural. So is pain. Should we rage against that, too? My god, I'll spend my whole life raging.

what are we supposed to accept?

seeker35
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 7/27/2003 9:33 AM (GMT -6)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/27/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by seeker35

So, if death is unnatural. So is pain. Should we rage against that, too? My god, I'll spend my whole life raging.

what are we supposed to accept?

I hope that you caught that the poem was by a 20th cent. writer: of Dylan Thomas. He is famous; but it is not Gospel. But it is a real poem about a real problem. And in his realism, poetically stated, he calls us to notice the truth: that death is not right.

Death came into the world through sin. And the consequences of sin (death and mortality, even middle age) lead often to more sin, and then more death...

I read that poem in a book by an Orthodox Bishop from England. A professor at Oxford University, actually. (Timothy Ware/Bishop Kalistos Ware) Like a lot of people in England he grew up Anglican; and as a "Westerner" in an "Eastern" form of Christianity he makes interesting connections!

Seeker35, you ask: "I'll spend my whole life raging...what are we supposed to accept?" Good question. Death and life are opposites. But as a follower of Jesus Christ and by God's grace a part of his "Body" (the Church) I know that Life came into the world by the life, death, and resurrection of one man. Adam brought in death. (Whoever he was.) But Christ's life, death, and resurrection brought in life.

When he was still ministering in the time leading up till when he knew that he would voluntarily give his life for many, Christ told his followers "take up your cross and follow me." On the surface that is more horrible than saying "go play on the freeway" as the political image of oppression filled the image of that capital punishment gallows. And the natural shame of dying in the open, unloved and attended to layered on further repulsion. Obviously to "take up one's cross" is not a partial thing.

But the image of the cross is not enough. Another image is needed to tell the rest of the story. With a cross, with for example Jesus, the other half was being buried. The image of "baptism" (going down into water--an element symbolizing the whole world, and also the dangers of the world) both the death and the being laid down are implicite. But baptism also has one other aspect. OUT of the water you come. Christ rose. Being baptized into Christ involves first a COMPLETE renunciation of the Devil and his works; then a completely sincere desire to live for Christ in the power of His Spirit;
burial down into the water; andrising up out of the water. That image makes us symbolically in the image of Christ. The water is still just water. But just as my wedding ring is BOTH a symbol AND the real commitment of my marriage, so Baptism saves us IN CHRIST.

Later, any needed confessing of sins and repentance can be thought of as "second baptisms." That's the way the Eastern Orthodox think and speak of it.

But what of your question: ...what are we supposed to accept?

In baptism you accept the death that comes with your sin. After that you need not fear death. After that you know the ONE who personally IS life. Jesus Christ, God's son. And after that the opposites just go together.

A significant Orthodox hymn says: "THROUGH THE CROSS JOY CAME INTO THE WORLD." Can you think of any two things more further removed: joy and capital punishment?

Dead to sin, and alive in Christ.

The Christian is simultaneously "justified" and "sinful."

This is where Chrysostom's Easter Sermon comes in:

quote:
...for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep

Poetically...

quote:
...forgiveness has risen from the grave...

quote:
Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with.
It was in an uproar because it is mocked.
It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed.
It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated.
It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.
Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.
O death, where is thy sting?
O Hades, where is thy victory?

To Him be Glory and Power forever and ever. Amen!

Something the Orthodox do certain times of the year, as especially good ways of preparing themselves to grow in the Lord (They know BALANCE, and rest from such spiritual athleticisms some times -- just 'keeping in shape' during those times.) is to "prostrate" (kneel and bow down) during this prayer: (BTW, bowing is an "image of death" -- so the bowing down and rising up recalls the saving power of God to heal in our lives, and in so doing we "remember" with assurity what has not even happened yet -- our RESURRECTION with him in Glory.)

quote:
O Lord and Master of my life,
take from me the spirit of sloth, despondency,
lust of power, and idle talk;

But grant rather
the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love
to thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King,
grant me to see my own transgressions,
and not to judge my brother;
for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.

prayer of saint ephrem the syrian - 4th century

seeker35
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 7/28/2003 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

DLW—I appreciated the humor. More than you know.

POW--“And after that the opposites just go together.”

Me--Really? How is that?

I think I understand the paradox. …it is so unbelievable, it has to be true. But, This one.. How does one ever get there? Death stinks. So does pain. I know Christ supposedly changed that, but do you really feel it? …I was baptized. Big deal. I was a baby. Now, I’m not. How did my baptism change things? For real?

Are you saying, it’s some Holy Spirit who gets you there? Well,….what did I do wrong?? The holy spirit isn’t here. I’m left with reasoning. And that doesn’t cut it. And, I know I’m not that intelligent—but I also know that many intelligent people don’t understand it either. That’s why I allowed myself to ask about that poem in the first place.

Sorry, I’m sounding accusatory here. I thank you for your patience and understanding. Here’s a new question…following on the last ones: how can you “remember” something that hasn’t even happened yet? Is it, “Already, not yet?” Please, explain it to me. Just try. That’s all I ask. Explain baptism, please.

Don’t tell me…Poetry. It’s why the bible is written that way, right? I love poetry. Not Dylan Thomas so much, but… Donne…and Yeats…and Hopkins. And Eliot. Yes, that’s sometimes the only way to really say something. But, sometimes, it’s just too darn hard for me to understand.

Anyway, about the kneeling thing. Thanks. I never understood that, and now I think I do. Enough said. And.. btw…I liked the prayer.

Now, think I’ll go read that thread by Mephi. I know if I try really hard, I’ll understand All of it. I’m probably not that ambitious. But, heck, it’s fun. Then, maybe I’ll read that poll thread again. It was funny.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/28/2003 12:51 PM (GMT -6)

I think that you need to go see a pastor. The internet is just not that helpful. Radio or TV either.

seeker35
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 25

Posted 7/28/2003 1:11 PM (GMT -6)

Yes, I see that I have too many personal questions to be dealt with here.
I don’t know any pastors, or ministers or anything. But, I’ll find something. Thanks.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 7/28/2003 1:23 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by seeker35

Yes, I see that I have too many personal questions to be dealt with here.
I don’t know any pastors, or ministers or anything. But, I’ll find something. Thanks.

Please email adiaphora and I'm sure they can help you get in contact with some help.

dlw

I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!

Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.

I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.

C.S. Lewis

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/28/2003 4:17 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Please email adiaphora and I'm sure they can help you get in contact with some help.

Seeker, this is VERY good advice. "adiaphora" (the real person) is connected with several individuals who are pastors. You can find a way, perhaps through them or perhaps just through good advice, get in touch with a church in the city where you live.

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