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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 6/9/2003 12:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

quote:
DLW

Pow, A traditionalist is someone who honors and respects Christian traditions and spends a good deal of time steeping themselves in them and tries to draw from them to inform current practice.



I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY LIKE THESE TWO (2) DEFINITIONS:

Tradition is the living faith of the dead;
traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.

(GK Chesterton, Orthodoxy)



Good Stuff, Pow!!

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
 
   Posted 6/9/2003 4:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
LR

John: Brother, I do appreciate your taking the time to respond to this difficult topic. I can tell by your last response that we are not communicating as well as I thought we were. I hope that I have not offended you.

John

You are definitely not offending me. I agree it would appear we are miscommunicating.


LR

As I said in my first post, I have been exclusively talking about the physical leading of God. You say, now, that this kind of leading is not "promised" in the Bible. Whether it is promised or not, the Bible is full of people being physically led by God, and almost exclusively by extraordinary means. I am simply asking why not any more? Why the still, small, subtle voice instead?

John

And this I think is the crux of our disagreement, LR. I do not find the "physical" leading of the Lord to be what was usuallyhappening in the Bible. In this topic, as in so many others, the distinction between physical and spiritual is absolutely essential. The "still, small voice" was how the Lord spoke to Elijah during a time of great crisis for Elijah. Why should we devalue it?


LR

On the other hand, why did God give you a vision once? Did you need a clearer message on that particular issue so that faith would result? That's all I have been trying to get you to respond to.

John

My experience had nothing to do with a "physical" leading. It had to do with a spiritual revelation. I still very much had a choice to make. This was quite clear.

LR

To show that this is the case, I will use an example from the book that you recommended I read, ok?

"Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to." (Acts16:6-7)

Surely, Paul and his buddies would have known "what Jesus would do", as you say. Surely, these were praying men, weren't they? Surely, these were fasting men, weren't they? And yet, we find them here "lost" as to what to do. This, in context, is what I have been talking about, John. Incidently, if you finish the reading you will find out that they too recieved a "vision", as you did, to help them find their way.

John

The reference to them being "forbidden by the Holy Spirit" does not say the means of this forbidding was a vision, only that the Holy Spirit forbad them to go into a certain area. It seems to me that this is an example of the "still, small voice" (however emphatic it apparently was). Yes, after these two verses, in 16:9-10 Paul did in fact receive a vision, but again, I don't see this as a "physical" thing as much as it was a spiritual thing.

In any spiritual leading, the human responsibility to obey or disobey is a given. "Physical" to my understanding implies coercion, such as God making Paul go against his will. "Spiritual," on the other hand, has to do with persuasion as opposed to coercion.

That said, I do not see how either the still small voice or the vision is an example of a physical leading. To my mind that would imply God unilaterally forced Paul to do His bidding. This would be inconsistent with the OV (and, I would argue, the way God generally works with people as revealed in the Scriptures).

LR

I know that I have taken up way too much of your time; however, I would still love to hear your interpretation of Eph.2:10.

John

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. NASB

I of course could be wrong, but I don't see that this verse requires us to believe in a closed future (that each and every particular good work we might do has been prepared beforehand by God). It seems simply to say that good works in general are that which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in.




"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net





Edited by - John Earp on 06/10/2003 01:32:19 AM
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
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   Posted 6/9/2003 4:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks.
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
 
   Posted 6/10/2003 3:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
lone ranger,
Greetings,
The still small voice as is being taught by many is a very limited demonstration of God's leading today. He still manifests in the same way he has manifested in the old and new testament, with the addition in the new covenant of His Son, the manifestation of tongues and interpretation of tongues. Your question about the spiritual interactions between God and His people today is answered by the apostle Paul in - Young’s Literal Translation - "1 Corinthians 12:1 And concerning the spiritual things, brethren, I do not wish you to be ignorant;" Paul is teaching about what you are asking, how and by what means does God speak to us or interact with us in the church? Now concerning spirituals or spiritual things brethren I would not have you ignorant. He then goes on to teach about the different gifts, their origin being the Holy Spirit, the body of Christ being members in particular, walk in love first, the misunderstandings and corrections in 14 and their order in the assembly.

My point is, a word of wisdom given today is the same as a word of wisdom given to a person in the old testament or new. A word of knowledge also is the same, or prophecy, or discerning of spirits, or the gifts of healings, ect. Why would someone teach only about a still small voice as (the way) when the Holy Spirit manifests severally (gifts, and their manifestations are much more than just a small voice, no offense meant) as He will. We are led just like the people in the bible were led,( I am not trying to say we must have the exact same kind, a duplication of the burning bush for example) there is diversity.

John Wimber's search and discovery were honest, couragous, and beneficial for the church and a good example for others to follow. I am not saying we should compare ourselves with others, which is not wise, but the same earnest desire for spiritual gifts, while walking in love, should be the norm for us.

A message in tongues with interpretation, a prophecy, a word of knowledge, in the assembly of God's people are manifestations of the Lord speaking, guiding, edifying, the church. I don't discount the still small voice, or the ministry either. I hope you get my drift.

Lone Ranger, you can trust the Holy Spirit, to guide you into all truth and of course the Word is truth .


The last thing I would like to add is as individuals in the church we are given gifts of grace in different ministries. So we should not feel depressed if someone else is walking is a grace that seems greater than ours. The last of chapter 12 shows this - 1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
ect.

Walk in love and be zealous for spiritual things. Welcome to the OV camp.


Ron Sirkel
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lone ranger
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 9
 
   Posted 6/11/2003 12:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To All: I'm back! Sorry, the demands of life took me away temorarily. All of your comments have been great!

Ron: I wondered if anyone would address the spiritual gifts, whenever I posted this! Let me say that I, too, believe as you do on this issue(or, I would at least be on your side of the arguement). However, I, have also seen so much abuse(that may not be the correct word, but...)concerning the "gifts" that I honestly don't know if I could receive from God in this manner, at this time. Therefore, I have not been looking for Him to speak to me in this way. The thought, "Do I even believe in the "gifts" anymore?" actually came into my head just the other day. My silent reply was simply,"No one has proven(from scripture)to me otherwise, so I guess I still do". Your words have convicted me, Ron. I have not "earnestly desired" the "gifts" in a long, long time; and I haven't prayed about them since before that. As I think about it, if the "tongues and interpretation gifts" were given to us by God for the purpose of communication(not to mention "word of knowledge and wisdom"), and were meant to be used as powerfully as you make it sound, then, of course Satan would want to discredit them by all kinds of abuses, wouldn't he? After reading God at Warrecently, I've been looking for areas of battle(not that one has to look too far!). Your words have stirred me to "take up arms" on this front, which I long ago abandonded. Thanks so much for your words, for they were truly "in season". This OV camp is so much more fun!

John: Oooh! Yea, I can see why you were confused about "physical"="coercion". NOT WHAT I MEANT AT ALL. I am fine with all leading being spiritual. My meaning, in this instance,was simply that the Spirit was trying to lead Paul's physical body somewhere. And yes, I was referring to vv.9-10.

Christian: I really appreciate your words. I,too, have had many encounters with people such as your mother-in-law, who go strictly on emotion. The ones I encountered came from the "spiritual gifts"(read Ron's post above)crowd. I appreciate both you and Ron for helping to bring the proper balance!

DLW: Wow, what an adventure! Consider yourself on my prayer list.

ReasonableDoubt: Yeah! Finally someone understands!!! I really appreciate your candid words. I was beginning to think I was way off on this one. You even addressed the "why" question very well; again, I thank you! I mentioned earlier that I had an idea brewing as to "why" myself, but wanted to wait and see if anyone else was seeing anything similar. We, again, seem to be on the same page! My idea continues with what you said about the Jews. I'd love to hear your comments. Do you believe that we are still in the "times of the Gentiles" as mentioned in Rom. 11:25, and that the Jews are still experiencing a "hardening"(also Rom. 11)? If so, could it be that although God wanted to continue these extraordinary works(signs) that He had always manifested through the Jews, even after Jesus, (for a while at least)He decided to "graft in" the Gentiles instead(due to the Jews unbelief)? Can we expect God to once again speak to the world extraordinally through His chosen people when He grafts them back in? Do you believe that the "two witnesses" mentioned in Rev.11 will be literal men? While certainly God has not changed(as John pointed out), He seems to be speaking to His world somewhat differently(than in the Bible) at the moment. Could this be due to the fact that He, at the moment, is not speaking to it(the world) through the Jews, but rather through the Gentiles?
"Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom..."(I Cor.1:22). Interesting observation by Paul about the general interests of each group, don't you think?

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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
 
   Posted 6/11/2003 4:26 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I posted this on another site. It might apply to the questions and issues being considered by SOME on this thread. I'll keep it small.

quote:

Instead of posting a quote extraction, let me direct ALL to the whole source. This is John of Damascus' "Exact Exposition of the Christian Faith." www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-09/Npnf2-09-29.htm#P2930_1712146 In it he refers to such things as:

quote:
Now the Greeks declare that all our affairs are controlled by the rising and setting and collision85 of these stars, viz., the sun and moon: for it is with these matters that astrology has to do. But we hold that we get from them signs of rain and drought, cold and heat, moisture and dryness, and of the various winds, and so forth86 , but no sign whatever as to our actions. For we have been created with free wills by our Creator and are masters over our own actions. Indeed, if all our actions depend on the courses of the stars, all we do is done of necessity87 : and necessity precludes either virtue or vice. But if we possess neither virtue nor vice, we do not deserve praise or punishment, and God, too, will turn out to be unjust, since He gives good things to some and afflicts others. Nay, He will no longer continue to guide or provide for His own creatures, if all things are carried and swept along in the grip of necessity. And the faculty of reason will be superfluous to us: for if we are not masters of any of our actions, deliberation is quite superfluous. Reason, indeed, is granted to us solely that we might take counsel, and hence all reason implies freedom of will.


Well, that quote was painless. (Note the underlining as an outline.)

If you want to go to the site, click on it. If you want to know a portion larger than the above, yet smaller than the whole, then for that I'll post a separate thread, and link to it HERE: www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2180

Its OUTLINE IS:

    Chapter:

  • XXIV. Concerning what is Voluntary and what is Involuntary

  • XXV. Concerning what is in our own power, that is, concerning Free-will

  • XXVI. Concerning Events

  • XXVII. Concerning the reason of our endowment with Free-will.

  • XXVIII. Concerning what is not in our hands

  • XXIX. Concerning Providence

  • XXX. Concerning Prescience and Predestination




TAKE A LOOK!

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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 6/16/2003 11:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for putting me on your prayer list LR.

I have been blessed with the opportunity to talk about religion in a number of my classes..

I also gave one of my fellow professor a copy of "letters from a skeptic" for Christmas...

So we will see how the seeds grow.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
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