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lone ranger
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 9

Posted 6/7/2003 7:14 AM (GMT -6)

One of the most frustrating things about Christian life for me has been the issue of faith. I have read many books, and heard many sermons on the topic over my years as a Christian. They all seem to totally omit one very basic, yet very important, issue concerning modern day faith. It is simply that God doesn't talk to us the same way that He used to(in the Bible). I mean, preachers hold up people such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and, of course, Jesus and his followers as examples for us to pattern ourselves after. But, I'm sorry, I'm having a very hard time patterning my walk of faith after any of them due to the fact that their encounters with God involved angelic visitations, God's audiable voice, God's physical appearance, burning bush experiences, supernatural dreams, undeniable miracles, and so forth. I've had none of these, yet preachers continue to use the lives of these "great" men to try to teach me to "walk by faith". By the way, I am defining faith as the obtaining of righteous results from believing and acting on something that God has spoken to a person. I tend to believe that both the force and endurance of my actions would be much stronger if I too heard from God supernaturally, as Moses did through the burning bush. In fact, I think it would be very difficult for me to fail any venture of faith at all, if I simply knew that I knew I was hearing from God on it. As it is, my wavering on things comes not from the enemy's attacks, but rather from my own communication problems with God. I never really know if the thoughts in my head have come from God---which makes it very hard to act on them. Afterall, we don't want to create any more Ishmaels now, do we? I really need someone to tell me how the "still, small voice" of today is better than what they had. To put my discussion in context, let me say that I am strictly talking here about faith as it concerns the specific direction of our lives. I'm fine with the guidance of the Holy Spirit concerning moral issues involving right vs. wrong(what many know as the conscience). It's the open-ended situations such as what, where, when, and how we do this or that which really immobilizes me. It just seems so strange to me that we are supposedly in the Lord's army, and are trying desperately to yield ourselves to hear His specific commands(which will finalize this war!), and He seems to be sending His orders to us encrypted. What other army has ever opperated this way?! Can you imagine any General sending messages to His troops, during battle, that they couldn't understand? Even the new testament followers seem to shed very little light on this coded message scenario. We as a church, at least in America, look very different from those who related to God in the Bible. Some have suggested that we are the problem. That due to our unholiness God is simply not talking to us the way He did in the Bible. Another sobering possiblity is that only those on the "front lines" get God's specially delivered messages. What if God considers the self indulgent, materialistic church of America to be on "inactive duty"? I find this view (of our unholiness) hard to swallow however, given what we know about the lives of these "men of faith" from the Bible. So what's up?! Should we be praying for God to speak to us once again as He did in the Bible, and not by the "still, small voice" alone? Jesus said he could only do what he "saw" his Father do(Jn. 5:19). Would forty days of fasting in the wilderness open up heaven for us too? Perhaps, on the other hand, we are not the problem at all, and God has simply chosen not to talk to us in the same manner for "open view" reasons. Maybe God wants to see how our unsolicited action, born from true love in our hearts for Him, will triumph over evil. As an earthly father, who truly enjoys seeing what his children will come up with on their own, perhaps God delights in seeing the activity of His redeemed children as they "unfold/create" the future as well. Perhaps, since the victory on the cross, only an occasional supernatural act on God's part is necessary(here or there; now and then) to keep things going as they should until the culmination of all things. Should we then stop spending so much time waiting on direct orders from God, and just plunge ahead with own adventure, following only the peace in our hearts(which is, I guess, God's way of showing us the best possible option for us to choose)? I am sincerely trying to get a grasp on this issue. From a man who has become hesitant to step out "in faith" on anything (short of a buring bush experience), I would really appreciate any and all responses. Thank You!

In Christ,
lone ranger

"True freedom is found in one's service to others" King Arthur

Christian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78

Posted 6/7/2003 9:02 AM (GMT -6)

God speaks to us now primarily through His Word. It is complete, it is inspired, and truly, it is all we need. There are things that seem unclear though, things regarding God's will for us in areas like who should I marry, should I move here or there, and what career should I pursue in which the Word of God does not give a clear answer (such as "marry this guy")? When we are walking in God's ways and abiding in Christ, living in obedience, we have prayed and often it does require fasting as well, and we are following His Word (for instance, we don't marry an unbeliever, we don't take a career that would require us to lie, so forth), than we can rest assured that God is with us, has given us wisdom through both His Word and the Spririt dwelling within us, and we can make our individual choices with this assurance. The OT prophets, leaders, and people did not have the Word of God. They also did not have the Holy Spririt or the preaching of Jesus (which we have a recorded record of). God's orders really are not encrypted. They are in His Word. When we know it, study it, abide by it, obey it, we have great confidence and assurance.

I do not wish to persuade you in this reply that the OV is harmful, but your struggle with knowing how God is involved in your life and wondering if perhaps He is merely spectating it rather than actually guiding and speaking to you, sounds reminiscent of my own struggles when I once embraced the OV. I no longer do. When I did, I nearly abandoned my faith altogether and many of your questions sound similar to ones that I also had (which I believe was due to my embracing of the OV because I believe the OV diminishes God in many unfortunate ways). It was a frightening thought to think that God did not know the future and thus, could not advise me (OV) but I believe now that God DOES know ALL the future and while he allows me free will (to an extent), He also in His sovereignty and awesomeness, directs my path in ways I cannot see. I am certainly not His puppet. The Bible is clear that we reap what we sow. We do the sowing. But He PROMISES many things for Believers who abide in Him. One of those things is that He WILL guide us and speak to us (whether it is through His Word, through another person, perhaps through a song or a pastor's sermon, so forth) even though the speaking may not occur with a literal burning bush. God works in mysterious ways and in each person's life differently. Also, what worked for Moses might not work for you or me! Perhaps that is another anwer to your question. He knows each of us individually and works in our lives differently.

God bless you.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/7/2003 9:12 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

One of the most frustrating things about Christian life for me has been the issue of faith. I have read many books, and heard many sermons on the topic over my years as a Christian. They all seem to totally omit one very basic, yet very important, issue concerning modern day faith. It is simply that God doesn't talk to us the same way that He used to(in the Bible). I mean, preachers hold up people such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and, of course, Jesus and his followers as examples for us to pattern ourselves after. But, I'm sorry, I'm having a very hard time patterning my walk of faith after any of them due to the fact that their encounters with God involved angelic visitations, God's audiable voice, God's physical appearance, burning bush experiences, supernatural dreams, undeniable miracles, and so forth. I've had none of these, yet preachers continue to use the lives of these "great" men to try to teach me to "walk by faith". By the way, I am defining faith as the obtaining of righteous results from believing and acting on something that God has spoken to a person. I tend to believe that both the force and endurance of my actions would be much stronger if I too heard from God supernaturally, as Moses did through the burning bush.

It wouldn't be faith if God just told us in a burning bush what to do and consider how Moses responded, he equivocated, asked God for a contingency plan, help from his brother. Apparently burning bushes do not, in and of themselves, inspire certainty regarding what is right conduct.

quote:

In fact, I think it would be very difficult for me to fail any venture of faith at all, if I simply knew that I knew I was hearing from God on it. As it is, my wavering on things comes not from the enemy's attacks, but rather from my own communication problems with God. I never really know if the thoughts in my head have come from God---which makes it very hard to act on them. Afterall, we don't want to create any more Ishmaels now, do we?

Kimosabe, God does not call upon us to be lone-rangers, spider-men, all loners, more or less, seeking to bring justice on their own. Put yourself in a good church and when you feel the moving of the spirit on something, share it with others and see if they feel it is a good idea too and talk to people that know their Bible to find whether or not such an act would be supported by scripture. It also is good to consider the history of Christianity and what others have done and try to learn from them as well.

And if you start out and someone provides you a prophetic witness against your idea, which shows that they really did take the time to understand you and deliberate on your idea, then repent, switch gears and consider something else.

quote:
I really need someone to tell me how the "still, small voice" of today is better than what they had. To put my discussion in context, let me say that I am strictly talking here about faith as it concerns the specific direction of our lives. I'm fine with the guidance of the Holy Spirit concerning moral issues involving right vs. wrong(what many know as the conscience). It's the open-ended situations such as what, where, when, and how we do this or that which really immobilizes me. It just seems so strange to me that we are supposedly in the Lord's army, and are trying desperately to yield ourselves to hear His specific commands(which will finalize this war!), and He seems to be sending His orders to us encrypted. What other army has ever opperated this way?! Can you imagine any General sending messages to His troops, during battle, that they couldn't understand?

The Spiritual Warfare Theodicy tends to fall short of the glory of God regarding questions of how we work out what we as Christians should be doing. I mean in the D-day analogy, it is all set: avoid getting shot and take the beach-head. Militaries also tend to have very strict hierarchical governance structures and so conflicts over strategy take place among the generals away from the soldiers. As someone from a Swedish-Baptist-Pietist tradition, I believe the model for how the Church decides the concrete actions it takes must be quite different. Although, there still is a need for some hierarchy and there may not be one correct ecclesiastical structure, but we can still learn from the varieties that exist and critique and alter the ways we decide things.

quote:
Even the new testament followers seem to shed very little light on this coded message scenario. We as a church, at least in America, look very different from those who related to God in the Bible. Some have suggested that we are the problem. That due to our unholiness God is simply not talking to us the way He did in the Bible. Another sobering possiblity is that only those on the "front lines" get God's specially delivered messages. What if God considers the self indulgent, materialistic church of America to be on "inactive duty"? I find this view (of our unholiness) hard to swallow however, given what we know about the lives of these "men of faith" from the Bible. So what's up?! Should we be praying for God to speak to us once again as He did in the Bible, and not by the "still, small voice" alone? Jesus said he could only do what he "saw" his Father do(Jn. 5:19). Would forty days of fasting in the wilderness open up heaven for us too?

I don't expect God to reveal to us exactly what the Church should be doing. The Koran kind of did that and it ended up prescribing its present day notions of what was right conduct as an absolute, ahistorical ideal. I.e., it did not come from God, but were the fallible notions of men(in all likelihood it was mostly just men).

But the absence of a clear alternative, does not imply we should accept the status-quo. Christianity is waning in the US. You see from the Barna-reports how little those that claim to be evangelical Christians differ from others. We may use more God-speak in how we describe our problems, but we are not being God's light to the world.

quote:

Perhaps, on the other hand, we are not the problem at all, and God has simply chosen not to talk to us in the same manner for "open view" reasons. Maybe God wants to see how our unsolicited action, born from true love in our hearts for Him, will triumph over evil. As an earthly father, who truly enjoys seeing what his children will come up with on their own, perhaps God delights in seeing the activity of His redeemed children as they "unfold/create" the future as well. Perhaps, since the victory on the cross, only an occasional supernatural act on God's part is necessary(here or there; now and then) to keep things going as they should until the culmination of all things. Should we then stop spending so much time waiting on direct orders from God, and just plunge ahead with own adventure, following only the peace in our hearts(which is, I guess, God's way of showing us the best possible option for us to choose)? I am sincerely trying to get a grasp on this issue. From a man who has become hesitant to step out "in faith" on anything (short of a buring bush experience), I would really appreciate any and all responses. Thank You!

Take the leap. You might find it helpful to try joining others in this sight in studying Soren Kierkegaard. I have my own links that reflect leaps I have chosen to take, often to the dismay of others..

But remember, don't be a lone-ranger. Do root yourself in a community.
dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/7/2003 12:05 PM (GMT -6)

Lone Ranger: It seems to me that if we prayed more, we would know God's leading more clearly. This kind of Holy Spirit guidance does not always seem to satisfy (and I don't think there is one "trick" to finding direction from the Lord). That said, studying the Scriptures is of course what should always be our primary means of seeking to hear from God.

Christian: If you really think the OV teaches "God doesn't know the future," then you really did not come to understand what OV in fact teaches. Open Theists emphatically affirm that "God knows the future" (at least those who follow Greg Boyd's explanation of the OV).

Where Open Theists differ from traditional theism is in the view that God also perfectly knows the possibilities that exist in the future. That is, he grants humans significant (but by no means absolute) freedom in morally responsible choices they make.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/07/2003 6:08:43 PM

lone ranger
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 9

Posted 6/7/2003 2:34 PM (GMT -6)

CHRISTIAN: Thank you for your response. You have brought another point up that I would like for you to discuss more in detail, if you would please; for it too has been very troubling to me. I hear many people say, as you have, that the Bible is all we need today. What I don't understand is how you use the Bible(which is just a collection of historical accounts of other people following God by supernatural means) to get specific direction in your life. Yes, I do mean things like who to marry, where to move, and so forth. Suppose a person is trying to decide if they should move to a certain city, or not. You may say that God will confirm it in His word. I say how? Will a certain scripture just appear written on the mirror, similar to Nebecanezzar's experience? Or say, the person's best friend, out of the blue, quotes a scripture about moving. If they did, could this person even then be sure it was God speaking? Satan has been known to quote scripture, right? Maybe God would "give" this person a scripture(whatever that means). I was told this by someone one day who was trying to make a decision about whether to go somewhere or not. When I found out that they had actually looked up many scriptures under the word "go" from a concordance until one "jumped out at them"(again, whatever that means), I then asked them if they had also looked up any scriptures that said "stay". Long pause.....end of conversation. I have also heard of scripture roulette, where a person simply drops the Bible and lets God speak to them from whatever page the Bible opens to. Please help me, I truly don't understand. I mean, without the Holy Spirit speaking to us while we are reading the scriptures(if this is the way that God chooses to speak to us--rhema--) aren't these just words on a page. And,in fact, aren't we just as confused about what we should do now, as before we opened the Bible? So, making the full circle, if we still must have something other than the Bible for our direction, then why this "still, small voice", which leaves many of us frustrated by it's subtlety? Why not an angel or something that will truly confirm that it is actually God speaking, and very plainly what He desires? In your opinion, was this just a bad way to communicate? Has God decided that it was really a mistake on His part to talk to us this way, therefore, He no longer does? Why? The old method seemed to produce much stronger men of faith than we have today. Follow my logic for a moment... You say that God primarily talks to us today through His word(and I assume that you mean that you mean the Bible). You also say that the prophets,leaders, and people of old did not have the word of God(again, Bible). Yet these men(who had no Bible) are esteemed in our Bibles as the great men of faith(Heb.11). "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the rhema(not logos)" Heb.10:17

DWL: I know it is not God's desire for us to be lone rangers, but it was the Calvinist's desire, who persecuted me out of fellowship for my belief in OV. My profile fills in more of the gaps. Anyway, this is just a pen name for me now. Back when I chose this name, you all were the only ones I knew of that I could talk to about such things.

John: Thank you for your comments as well. About more prayer, How does this practically work out. Will we eventually have visions, angelic visitations, words of knowledge, and such...like the early church? Or is it back to the "still, small voice" again?

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/7/2003 5:17 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

John: Thank you for your comments as well. About more prayer, How does this practically work out. Will we eventually have visions, angelic visitations, words of knowledge, and such...like the early church? Or is it back to the "still, small voice" again?

Hi L.R.,

Romans 8:14 seems quite clear--those that are led by the Spirit are the children of God. I don't think God's normal mode of guidance has ever been visions, dreams, etc.

I can say from my own experience that fasting with prayer has almost never failed to intensify my sense of God's voice. I have had what I think would qualify as extraordinary messages from God before, but by far these are the exception (at least for me; I obviously can't speak for anyone else).

That said, I think it helps if we first define what the will of God is. It seems to me that the will of God has more to do with Him forming his character in us than with "guidance" in the typical sense you are enquiring about. It seems to me that God's will for us first and foremost is that we be loving as God is loving, righteous as He is righteous, holy as He is holy. If we are not reflecting the character of God, we ought not to expect to be being led of God in other things. And this requires much earnest prayer.

Seeking to receive and reflect His love is the main thing. Everything else is of subordinate importance.

My extra 2c

Hope this helps clarify what I am trying to say. Let me know if I am not making myself clear.

In Christ,

John Earp

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/07/2003 10:21:52 PM

Edited by - John Earp on 06/07/2003 10:23:43 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/7/2003 5:51 PM (GMT -6)

Dear Lone Ranger,

I'm not going to try to tie together all the things you asked about. I'm just going to take one part, a central part, and make one application to it.

You mentioned the "burning bush." That bush is famous because it held God inside of it without burning up. You wrote:

quote:
I'm having a very hard time patterning my walk of faith after any of them due to the fact that their encounters with God involved angelic visitations, God's audiable voice, God's physical appearance, burning bush experiences, supernatural dreams, undeniable miracles, and so forth. I've had none of these

Maybe, and maybe not.

Mary had God inside of her, and without burning up. Something even Moses had to turn his back to. Two priests were struck dead for touching the ark--even while trying to be helpful. But Mary, the first Christian, the best of us all, is not alone. WE TOO are to be "Christ-Bearers": "Christ-ians." How 'bout it?

It seems that you listed a lot of head-knowledge stuff. And we can do headknowlege stuff by our selves, on our own -- even while in Church. But we are called to be "a people, a royal priesthood, a holy temple." (1 Peter) A burning bush--holding God. What's that about?

The burning bush did not have any other claim to fame. It wasn't the tallest tree in history. It wasn't the oldest, the most symetrical, etc. But it held the Creator of all who is unboundable within its limited space. THAT ITSELF IS A MIRACLE. And the fact that it did not burn up is to.

quote:
The Inconceivable is conceived in the womb of a Virgin
[writes Theodore the Studite];
the Unmeasurable becomes three cubits high,
the Unqualifiable acquires a quality;
the Undefinable stands up, sits down, and lies down;
He who is everywhere is put into a crib;
He who is above time gradually reaches the age of twelve;
He who is formless appears with the shape of a man,
and the Incorporeal enters into a body. . . .
Therefore, He is describable and indescribable.

The "Anastasis" icon is an icon of OUR resurrection. Adam and Eve set free, Christ trampling down death by death.

Hope that helps.

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/07/2003 10:53:18 PM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/7/2003 6:00 PM (GMT -6)

SING CHOIRS OF NEW JERUSALEM!

The paschal victory to hymn

crushed the serpent's head

through death's domains
To wake the imprisoned dead

To him all power is given

All saints in earth and heaven

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/7/2003 6:08 PM (GMT -6)

P E N T A C O S T !

quote:
"The Spirit is in us all, and He is the Living Water Which the Lord grants to those who rightly believe in Him and love Him and who know that there is one Father, Who is above all and through all and in us all."

With these words, Saint Irenaeus of Lyons reminds us of the central truth of our faith – that our God is not a hidden or remote God, indifferent to the plight of His People. Rather, our God is a God Who not only sends His only-begotten Son into the world to transform us and all creation by His unconditional love, but makes us worthy to partake of His divine glory by filling us with His Holy Spirit. And it is precisely through the acquisition of the Holy Spirit that we, like the apostles on the great day of Pentecost, are united together into one body, the Body of Christ, the Church, in the very image of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit itself.

. . .

www.oca.org/pages/news/news.asp?ID=370
(Archpastoral Message of His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman on the Great Feast of Pentecost, June 15, 2003)

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/07/2003 11:11:58 PM

lone ranger
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 9

Posted 6/7/2003 8:25 PM (GMT -6)

John: Thanks again for taking time to work with me on this. I should tell you that I have only known about open view formally for about a year(that's also when I found out about Greg and Woodland Hills). The three years prior to that were spent trying to piece this stuff together on my own. Having been in both the Armeanian and Calvinistic camps earlier in my life, I just felt that neither had it right. I tell you this so that you will understand that I find myself once again re-evaluating many things that I've held as truth. I am now, quite frankly, asking myself how the guidance issue fits into the OV camp. By the way, I too agree that the character issue is a higher priority. It's just that I'm needing clarity on the other at the moment.
Let me now say that I don't see how Rom.8 applies to our topic since the context of the passage is dealing with the moral issue of God's guidance(grace vs. the law). What I am wanting to know is, has God reverted to the "still, small voice" now in our personal guidance because He truly wants to see what we will come up with on our own? You mentioned that you gain a hightened sensitivity to God's voice after fasting and praying. Do you see the words of guidance that God speaks to you as Eph. 2:10 words("good works which were prepared in advance for us to do"), or simply God showing you what path will have the best potential outcome?
You also mentioned that you didn't think that the supernatural medium was God's normal way of communicating. The frustration that I feel about all of this is that my Bible is crammed full of examples saying otherwise. I'm just wondering why. I have had an idea brewing for a while that I was hoping someone might be holding as truth as well.

Potonwheel: I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you are saying at all. I will say, I could have just as easily entitled this topic "real faith requires and angelic visit". I chose the burning bush as a purely random example of God's supernatural communication. My overall point is simply that if we cannot get God's directions clearly then there is no hope for any faith at all. Js. says that faith without works is dead. How can we know what work to do without clear instructions. Moses was given very clear instructions in the burning bush.

Thanks!

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 6/7/2003 9:16 PM (GMT -6)

LR: for most of my Christian life I lived around people who would pray about everything just about, ask God if they should take this job, go here on vacation, all sorts of nonsense like that, as if we were God's robots and everytime we went to the bathroom we had to get his okay for it. I would try that sometimes, particularly in the job but I never felt any surer either way.
Then awhile back I was reading Dallas Willard's book Hearing God and two things stuck with me from it.
One, Jesus never asked God what he should do because he was walking so close with the Father he just knew the Father's will in certain situations. I'm not saying we can get where Jesus is, but the picture is we should be seeking to draw closer to the Father in our daily lives. If we do that usually the picture comes clearly.
The second thing he said is if your praying about something and not getting an answer its probably because God wants you to make the decision. That was very profound for me. Because if you look at a lot of scripture when God wanted his people to do something, something very specfic, he let no doubt. He told them. If he wants you to do something very specifically he'll told you. If he really had a certain job, for instance, he totally wanted you to take he would tell you. Otherwise, I believe he expects us to make some of the decisions ourselves with the wisdom he has given us.
I think the one true thing God will for our lives that is certain is to be conformed to the image of his Son. Most everything else I think he wants us to make the decision ourselves.
Too many Christians use the Bible as if it were some kind of magic wand...

Edited by - honorman on 06/08/2003 02:17:45 AM

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/7/2003 11:02 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

John: Thanks again for taking time to work with me on this. I should tell you that I have only known about open view formally for about a year(that's also when I found out about Greg and Woodland Hills). The three years prior to that were spent trying to piece this stuff together on my own. Having been in both the Armeanian and Calvinistic camps earlier in my life, I just felt that neither had it right. I tell you this so that you will understand that I find myself once again re-evaluating many things that I've held as truth.

Thanks for sharing your experience, LR. I think it's great that you're reevaluating things.

quote:
I am now, quite frankly, asking myself how the guidance issue fits into the OV camp.

From what I know, as the OV eliminates the "blueprint worldview" from the equation (blueprint = there is one and only one specific way each and every situation may turn out and that God has determined this from eternity past), it makes the Scripture's calls to prayer, repentance, obedience, good works, etc., much more optimistic to my mind. That is, it seems to me that the OV makes how we experience the world anyway fit with how we approach God, the Bible, and the Christian life. Prayer really does make a difference in the OV. I honestly don't see how prayer possibly can make a real difference with the classical/blueprint model of the future. Like I said, I think the OV underscores, highlights, and BOLDS the biblical calls for us to respond to God.

quote:
By the way, I too agree that the character issue is a higher priority. It's just that I'm needing clarity on the other at the moment. Let me now say that I don't see how Rom.8 applies to our topic since the context of the passage is dealing with the moral issue of God's guidance(grace vs. the law).

The reason I believe Romans 8:14 in fact does apply to the topic of personal guidance is precisely because this is one of the only times in Scripture where the phrase, "led of/by the Spirit" is even found.

By doing a search for the use of this phrase in the NT, I came up with the following:

Matt 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness

Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The first two have to do with the character development of Christ (He was led by God to enter the temptations in the wilderness). In context, the second two have to do with character development of Christians. I remember when this first dawned on me a few years ago when I was trying to find out what the Bible had to say about "being led by the Spirit." I was quite convicted and humbled to find that my idea of being led was apparently quite different than God's idea.

Tying this back into the theme of God's will for us being that we be loving persons reflecting His love in our relationships with others, it seems to me that if we are needing direction we ought to ask the Lord to show us "what is the loving thing?" (In other words, "what would Jesus do in this situation?) This is our guide.

quote:
What I am wanting to know is, has God reverted to the "still, small voice" now in our personal guidance because He truly wants to see what we will come up with on our own?

I certainly don't think God wants us to "come up with" anything on our own! That would be very wrong and potentially disastrous, in my opinion. I definitely affirm that Jesus wants to be our Shepherd and for us to know his voice and follow Him. I don't think, however, that this means we will necessarily be getting an almost constant flow of direct words of knowledge, visions, dreams, etc.

quote:
You mentioned that you gain a hightened sensitivity to God's voice after fasting and praying. Do you see the words of guidance that God speaks to you as Eph. 2:10 words("good works which were prepared in advance for us to do"), or simply God showing you what path will have the best potential outcome?

What my experience has been when I've been fasting (especially if either on more than a one-day fast or if I have been fasting at least once a week is:

1. I usually can really feel the Spirit of God on me, in me, and working through me. I don't know how to explain it better than that.

2. I also feel a real depth of humbling of my natural human tendency to pride, along with a sense of my desperate need for God's power to be the witness he has called me to be.

3. I also seem to hear much more consistently and strongly the "still, small voice" of God in my mind and heart (especially after the first day or two of an extended fast). This has never been an audible voice for me, but is an unmistakeable knowledge that God is telling me something He wants me to know at the time.

4. I have experienced (one time) what I would call a series of visions from God after a one-week fast. It was how God called me into the ministry. I don't think it was because I was anything special except that I was desperately hungry to know His will. I do not feel at liberty to discuss the contents of these visions. It has been over 15 years since I received these, and I have not seen them fulfilled as yet, but I believe I will. Essentially the message I believe I received from the Lord that day was "This is what I will do with you if you walk closely with me."

5. As to practical outworking of this, I also because of #1, 2 & 3 note much more power in ministry, whether at my secular job, in small or large group settings, or in counseling. It seems when I have been fasting, those who have demonic problems seem to be drawn to me, or perhaps I am drawn to them--I'm not exactly sure. But I do know the spiritual warfare becomes a present reality and not just a theory when I have been fasting.

quote:
You also mentioned that you didn't think that the supernatural medium was God's normal way of communicating.

Actually what I said was I didn't think visions and dreams were God's normal mode of communicating with us. I do believe real prayer is by definition supernatural.

quote:
The frustration that I feel about all of this is that my Bible is crammed full of examples saying otherwise.

A couple of things come to mind with regard to this. First, as you know, the Bible was written over a period of many centuries. There were no doubt many, many godly people during that time period that were not in fact spoken to by God in the extraordinary ways that say, Moses was. In fact, when God tried to talk directly to the people of Israel, they were so afraid they begged Moses to just be their go-between, because they couldn't take the awesomeness of the voice of God. We often presume that we really want to hear God's audible voice, a vision, a dream, a burning bush, if you will. But I really wonder if we even know what we are asking when we say that.

quote:
I'm just wondering why. I have had an idea brewing for a while that I was hoping someone might be holding as truth as well.

If you mean that God is not speaking today as he did in Bible days, I would simply have to disagree. I think the problem has more to do with our modern mindset, our apparent lack of real desire for God for much more than his "blessing" on what WE want to do, than anything else.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

P.S.: By the way, PoW is the resident crusader for Eastern Orthodoxy on this discussion board, even though he attends a Christian Reformed Church. He likes to post some really neat-looking icons and cut and paste lots of quotes from Eastern Orthodox writers. That's pretty much his style.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/08/2003 04:05:48 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/8/2003 2:05 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
John Earp

P.S.: By the way, PoW is the resident crusader for Eastern Orthodoxy on this discussion board, even though he attends a Christian Reformed Church. He likes to post some really neat-looking icons and cut and paste lots of quotes from Eastern Orthodox writers. That's pretty much his style.

P.S., PoW has been a Christian amongst: Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Reformed, Mennonites, Bretheran, Orthodox and Roman Catholics. He likes to post from the 'center' of what the Christian faith is. And he likes to do so creatively--but always with reason.

quote:
Potonwheel: I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you are saying at all. I will say, I could have just as easily entitled this topic "real faith requires and angelic visit". I chose the burning bush as a purely random example of God's supernatural communication. My overall point is simply that if we cannot get God's directions clearly then there is no hope for any faith at all. Js. says that faith without works is dead. How can we know what work to do without clear instructions. Moses was given very clear instructions in the burning bush.

Thanks!

So what I posted was not what you expected. (And I knew it would be.) You want direction. I suggested "waiting." That's the instructions that the disciples received on the Mount of Olives, before Pentacost. It is Pentacost that you can look to as your burning bush. And it is not DATA (informative instructions, like: "How can we know what work to do without clear instructions.") but relationship that matters.

I suggest that you read Brother Lawrence's "Practice of the Rresence of God." -- for FREE, at www.ccel.org/l/lawrence/practice/htm/i.htm (a Roman Catholic monastery special-ed. dishwashers wisdom, brought to you courtesy of Calvin College's mainframe.)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/8/2003 2:06 AM (GMT -6)

Brother Lawrence's answer to the thread-question would be "No."

www.practicegodspresence.com/

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/8/2003 5:45 AM (GMT -6)

LR,

I'm sorry to hear about you being persecuted because of your affirmation of OV. I am here in MX, a somewhat RCC country and I attend a church that is very similar to a southern baptist church. I go there, but I still struggle to understand the sermons since I am still working on my spanish. I am sure that I couldn't become a member if I wanted to because of my theological beliefs.

I, like Pow, am a traditionalist, but Pow and I differ in some quite substantial ways.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/8/2003 9:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
I, like Pow, am a traditionalist...

?

What's a "traditionalist?"

Christian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78

Posted 6/8/2003 2:53 PM (GMT -6)

loneranger, when I say the Bible is all we need today, I suppose I refer to the Bible as being the final Word of God. Within it is the beginning (Genesis), present, and end (Revelation). We are blessed to have this knowledge as so many persons, before it was written, did not have it. I wonder if this was in mind of the author of the verse stating, "To whom much has been given, much will be expected."

God used other means to speak to people pre-Jesus because they lived in a time in which they were under the law, awaiting the Messiah, and without the Bible. I suppose I find it somewhat troubling that so many persons today seek God's voice through experience and feeling vs. Scripture. Many persons desire visions, a "touch of God," a "word," or some other experience. I cannot help but wonder what God feels seeing this and knowing that he has given us so much understanding in his word. I wonder how many persons actually know it and study it. I am not so much referring to those who are in the Word and yet long for more of God, but for those who long for God but prefer an emotional experience rather than disciplinging themselves to be in the Word.

Case in point- my mother-in-law who is Catholic and has shared with me visions in dreams she's had, she gets excited when someone says they've seen Jesus here or there, and so forth. She becomes very emotional when thinking or speaking of a touch she's received. Yet, she never opens her Bible. She knows very little of it. When she gives advice, it is not Biblical because she does not know the Bible. She is not different from the majority of people I know. The Bible says that people die out of ignorance of God's ways. We don't know His ways, yet could if we wanted to. We have no excuse because we have His word. Not only do we have Scripture, but we have books written by pastors and Bible scholars, Christian radio with both music and sermons, ministries galore, Bible study aids. We live in an age and time where there is no lack of knowledge, yet it seems that many simply do not desire to access it.

As for those choices and decisions which are not clear, such as who to marry, jobs, moves, so forth, there are principals that can guide us to making a right decision. Ultimately, many decisions must be made in faith, and after prayer, quiet time with the Lord, and perhaps also fasting. The Lord has given us a sound mind where we can weigh pros and cons of decisions. There is a Proverb that also speaks of wisdom with a multitude of counselors. In many ways, we cheat ourselves when we are not rooted in a church, not fellowshiping with Christians, and not in the Word or prayer. In all honesty, we should expect little if that is the case. The Lord can use others, especially pastors or other Christians, to give us wise counsel. And as I have already discussed, He uses His Word and prayer.

The way that God would confirm a decision in his Word is simply if it is morally and Biblically sound. For instance, when making a decision, a person can ask themselves- is it pure? Is it good and right? Is it something where I will be able to glorify God in? Am I trusting God? Am I having faith? Is there any Scripture I am violating? Am I rebelling? Am I hurting anyone? Will I be able to love in this decision? This is how I see God confirming it. With Scripture already given.

I don't believe you will suddenly hear a voice or feel a warm and fuzzy feeling inside. I am also quite skeptical when people tell me they have "received a word" from God because it is easy to deceive our own selves into thinking we have received a word.

I also do not rely much on coincidental occurrences such as you mentioned with a friend out of the blue, quoting a Scripture about moving. And certainly, I believe it is foolish to open the page believing you will fall upon the verse that will tell you what to do. To often, perhaps we are too fearful to make a decision. Because of our fear of making a wrong choice, we look to God for some sign. I often have longed for God to give me a sign! But then, God requires us to have faith. Faith is when we truly show our love and commitment to God for it is saying to Him, "Lord, I am not sure what to do. But I have prayed and sought you, and I am going to choose to do this trusting that you will not let it pass if it is not your will." Along those lines. Faith requires us to step out not knowing for sure the outcome but believeing that God WILL be with us if we are walking with Him.

We must be careful when others advise us as well. When my mother-in-law advises, I keep in mind that she is not a woman in the Word. We must always hold up a person's advice to Scripture. People will wrongly advise all sorts of things such as telling someone it's okay to divorce their spouse or telling them a certain career is a good career because you will make a lot of money. If God has laid upon a person's heart to be a missionary in a poor country in which the person will have to give up comforts, there will be those who will find this to be foolish! Even a person's parents or spouse or children might wrongly advise due to their own selfish desires or a lack of knowledge of the Lord's will for that person.

This makes a quiet time with the Lord crucial! We must listen to His voice above all others. If we are never quiet and alone, we may not hear his voice. His voice might simply be the peace we have during prayer. It might be that while reading Scripture, the "lightbulb" turns on in our head. It might be that we are suddenly in tears during prayer as we feel the Lord laying something upon our hearts. And again, He works in mysterious ways, differently with all people.

I do find it to be somewhat foolish for a person to look under verses on "go" to find God's will about moving since God does not discuss moving in the Bible except in cases like Jonah going to Ninevah or Abraham leaving his land. If I wanted to find a verse on love, certainly I will. Or a verse on faith. But on my own particular move. God does not discuss that in His Word. Rather I must apply what I know to be His will (to not be immoral, to not be unkind, to give, to be a good steward, to submit to authority, and on and on) to my particular opportunity or problem as I decide what steps to take. And while I do, I can trust that He will guide me in ways unseen IF I am obeying Him and seeking Him.

No, I do not think God's ways of speaking in the OT were worser ways (i.e. thorugh angels). I think of all the various ways God has spoken throught the ages. To Paul, he blinded him. To David (when caught in sin), he used a person (Nathan). For Esther, she fasted three days. To Moses, the bush. To Joseph, an angel. To Peter, Jesus. To us, his word and his spirit. I would not say though that God couldn't use an angel to speak to us today. Or a burning bush. It does seem, however, that he does not use such supernatural ways today as he did then, which I believe is due to the fact that Jesus came and we are the Christians living after Jesus and we have His Word. We are the "church age." The ones living after the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Messiah. The generations before Jesus were the ones expectantly waiting for the Messiah. As well, they did not have the Spirit but were under the law. It was quite different.

In my own life, there have been many decisions made not fully knowing if it was God's will and with no clear sign (no angel, no lighting bolt, no "word") to go on. There have also been decisions were God's will was clear. No premarital sex. That is something a person does not even have to ask God what his will is regarding. No divorce. No adultery. No being out of fellowship in the church. No not forgiving someone. No cursing God. So forth. There are many things that are clear in His Word that guide us greatly. I also have read various viewpoints of different pastors or Bible experts who have written books on the subject of knowing God's will. This has helped me as I have gleaned from their knowledge.

Perhaps the old method produced stronger men of faith although I am not certain that is true. There have been many heroes of faith post-Jesus such as Billy Graham, Corrie Ten Boom, the apostles, Jim Elliot and other missionaries, even these two young ladies who were rescued from Afghanistan after Sept. 11. But the OT men certainly are great men of faith. Their faith was believing that the Messiah would come. They believed in a God who said someday my son will die for your sins and you will receive eternal life. They believed in a promise that had not yet been fulfilled. It would be as if my daughter told me, Dad, someday I will give you 10 healthy grandchildren (if somehow she had divine knowledge of this). Faith would be believing something that had not yet happened. And consider if my daughter were 6 when she said it and perhaps riddled with cancer and told she had a month to live! How absurd her statement would be. If it were God saying it "your daughter will have 10 children someday", I might be like Sarah and laugh or I might be like Abraham and believe with faith in something that I might not even be around to see. As for those of us post-Jesus, we have the history of Jesus and now we are the ones who believe what we cannot see. Somewhere in the NT, I believe it is Paul who states "blessed are you who believe what you have not seen" (along those lines). He explains how the men and women of old heard God and saw God but we do not, thus, we are very blessed when we believe. We believe upon the Word that is the record of what has already been (the apostles, Jesus, the OT men and women).

I am not certain that my words today are completely coherent. A pastor could give a much better sermon on this than my explanation. There are verses that come to mind as I write but I cannot recall where they are located. I will attempt to share some in the future. Please feel free to question what I've said. I do not know if I have helped any.

Edited by - Christian on 06/08/2003 8:07:32 PM

lone ranger
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 9

Posted 6/8/2003 3:33 PM (GMT -6)

Honorman: Thanks so much for your comments. AMEN to too many people using the Bible as a magic wand! Sounds like we come from similar environments. I appreciate the points you shared from Dallas' book, as well. My new(yet still being shaped) outlook on guidance(now that I am in the OV camp) seems to be heading in the direction of what you mentioned. In fact, it is most likely that, when the dust settles from my desperate persuit of the proper perspective on this issue, I will have solidified on exactly what you have said. Thanks too for the "heads up" on the book. I have not read it, yet.

John: I,again, thank you for your response. I want to pick up on some things that you said, and then go in some different directions for a moment in order to help you see my biggest challenges a little better. First, I totally agree with you about the aspect of true prayer in the OV stance, as opposed to the "blueprint" stance. Spiritual warfare is sure seen in a different light, huh? I'll come back to this. Second, I still don't see how Rom.8 applies to our topic, since "being led" here refers to character issues rather than being physically led. Third, while I appreciate what you said about fasting, and I personally agree with the results that you mentioned(only, I've never had a "vision"), what I am most interested in is your outlook(from an open view perspective) as a reciever of guidance from God. I mean, whenever you fast and pray, as you've said, are you thinking, "God will show me what He wants me to do"(Eph.2:10--Closed future), or are you thinking,"God will show me the best thing for me to do"(totally your choice--open future)? Fourth, you say let our guide be "do the loving thing". In the case of "do we go here or there?", can't we be just as loving "here" as "there"? You say,"what would Jesus do"? Therein is the problem! I don't know, a lot of the time! He says that he only does what he "sees" the Father do. Fifth, my mistake; prayer is supernatural. Sixth, I don't see how you can say that God is not speaking to us differently these days than in biblical times. If you could find someone who was absolutely clueless about Christianity, and then presented them with a New Testament, as a means of showing them what "it" was all about. I dare say that one of the first questions out of their mouths for you would be something like, "How many angels have you seen?". If you are familar with John Wimber(founder of the Vineyard church), you'll remember one of his first questions(after sitting in a church regularly, without seeing the things that he began to read about in his Bible) was, "When are we going to start doing 'the stuff'?". I guess my question is very much like his. Oh, I felt the same frustration about this topic while I was in both the Armenian camp and the Calvinist camp, but now that I am in the OV camp, and certainly after reading Greg Boyd's book, God at War it's really starting to gnaw at me again. You mentioned that Jesus is our Shepard. There is a big difference between Him being our shepard as opposed to our General(God at War). Actually, the only time a shepard really leads sheep is to get them to better grass, or to water. Until then, they just kinda do their own thing, don't they? The shepard's leading is all about the betterment of the sheep. Now, if Jesus is really more of our General, then much more clearly stated orders are to be expected, aren't they? Weren't the, what I call "predestined acts" of the patriarchs, given first as "orders" from God in extraordinary ways? Sure, Satan was there trying to mess things up, but it was definitly about God doing His thing, not the troops doing theirs. As it is today, I see a lot of the troops doing their own thing; due, in part, I feel, to them not really understanding their "orders"(that is, if this is the proper perspective). So, are we free to "roam as sheep" until we are led elsewhere, or should we keep fasting until we are near the point of death, while trying to "hear the orders" of our General. Honorman seems to be saying that we mostly sheep free to roam, and that we will be extraordinarilly alerted if God needs us for His "predestined" purposes. One last thing, whenever I say roam, I don't mean to become self indulgent, but rather to roam to areas of our own choosing, and thus expand the Kingdom naturally not providentially.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/8/2003 5:01 PM (GMT -6)

LR
Second, I still don't see how Rom.8 applies to our topic, since "being led" here refers to character issues rather than being physically led.

John

And therein lies the problem, LR. You are trying to be "led" in a way the Scripture does not promise.

LR
Third, while I appreciate what you said about fasting, and I personally agree with the results that you mentioned(only, I've never had a "vision"), what I am most interested in is your outlook(from an open view perspective) as a reciever of guidance from God. I mean, whenever you fast and pray, as you've said, are you thinking, "God will show me what He wants me to do"(Eph.2:10--Closed future), or are you thinking,"God will show me the best thing for me to do"(totally your choice--open future)?

John

I don't think "God will show me what he wants me to do" = "Closed future." I can choose. Choose to fast or not fast, choose to respond to the Spirit or not, choose to obey or not. As an OVer I believe that when I pray, worship, or fast, I am by definition going to be changed and receive more of the divine influence in my life (a greater measure of the Spirit). My perspective on this has not changed substantially since before I was an OVer. (As an Arminian, I still emphatically believed that prayer changes things and that God's mind could be changed, given the right conditions. So I believe I was an OVer before I ever heard of the OV). I also want to emphasize that I never once asked or desired to receive a vision. It came as a complete surprise to me. I really don't think it is about seeking visions, dreams, etc., at all. It is about seeking HIM.

LR
Fourth, you say let our guide be "do the loving thing".

John

Yes, Jesus said that summed up the Law and Prophets, was the New Commandment that he gave us, and Paul said that "he that loves another fulfills the law." Therefore it is eminently reasonable to conclude that "do the loving thing" is what the Lord would tell you.

LR
In the case of "do we go here or there?", can't we be just as loving "here" as "there"? You say,"what would Jesus do"? Therein is the problem! I don't know, a lot of the time! He says that he only does what he "sees" the Father do. Fifth, my mistake; prayer is supernatural.

John

And so we are back to your original question. It seems obvious that you don't have a very vital prayer life. That is what seems to be the hindrance, LR. If you don't know what Jesus would do, you either don't know the Bible or don't know the Father the way you should, or both. I don't mean to put you down, but that is what seems to me to be the problem.

LR
Sixth, I don't see how you can say that God is not speaking to us differently these days than in biblical times.

John

Has God changed? The Bible says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and "I the Lord do not change." It seems to me the only thing that has changed is that we have grown "dull of hearing."

LR

You mentioned that Jesus is our Shepard. There is a big difference between Him being our shepard as opposed to our General(God at War).

John

Of course there is a difference between a shepherd and a general. However, the middle-eastern shepherd, both in Jesus' day as well as ours, led his sheep by talking to them--he did not "drive" them. This is what Jesus was referring to when he said, "My sheep know my voice." As in both metaphors the essential issue is communication, I don't see how the two metaphors make a real difference in the HOW the leader leads. For us as Christians, of course the leadership of the Holy Spirit is received by prayer and faith. It is no different if you are thinking of Jesus as Shepherd or as Conquering King.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you studied the Book of Acts with a view to gleaning from the accounts therein precisely how the earliest Christians were led. (And indeed they were). I believe you will find that they were led to the degree that they were a praying community of believers.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/08/2003 11:09:19 PM

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 6/8/2003 5:12 PM (GMT -6)

Cmon POW, go back and tally up all the links. You know what was said is true...

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/8/2003 7:24 PM (GMT -6)

PoW,

I was simply giving my opinion based on my observations of the usual content of your posts. I think I've noticed you post a time or two to with references to other traditions than Eastern Orthodox, but for the most part, it seems you tend to post little more than EO quotations and EO icons (which I really think are kinda cool).

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

lone ranger
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 9

Posted 6/8/2003 8:53 PM (GMT -6)

John: Brother, I do appreciate your taking the time to respond to this difficult topic. I can tell by your last response that we are not communicating as well as I thought we were. I hope that I have not offended you. I will have to go back and find where it is that I am failing to get my point across. As I said in my first post, I have been exclusively talking about the physical leading of God. You say, now, that this kind of leading is not "promised" in the Bible. Whether it is promised or not, the Bible is full of people being physically led by God, and almost exclusively by extraordinary means. I am simply asking why not any more? Why the still, small, subtle voice instead? On the other hand, why did God give you a vision once? Did you need a clearer message on that particular issue so that faith would result? That's all I have been trying to get you to respond to. Again, I hope that my attempt to get you to look "outside of the box" has not offended you. As for your put down of me, I only wish that the Calvinists had been as gentle with me as you!

I assure you that my lack of a vital prayer life is not the problem here. We just simply have not communicated. To show that this is the case, I will use an example from the book that you recommended I read, ok?

"Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to." (Acts16:6-7)

Surely, Paul and his buddies would have known "what Jesus would do", as you say. Surely, these were praying men, weren't they? Surely, these were fasting men, weren't they? And yet, we find them here "lost" as to what to do. This, in context, is what I have been talking about, John. Incidently, if you finish the reading you will find out that they too recieved a "vision", as you did, to help them find their way. I know that I have taken up way too much of your time; however, I would still love to hear your interpretation of Eph.2:10.

Blessings!

DLW: Thanks so much for concerning yourself with my persecution. It was a really tough year! At first, I thought my problems with the Calvinists were communication related as well. However, as time went on, it became apparent that I was up against a religious spirit. So, what's up in MX? My spanish is not very good either. My family and I are taking a spanish course starting this next year in hopes of reaching out to the spainish community locally and in Mexico. Our church goes to Mexico every year for missions. Also, thanks too for you lead on Soren Kierkegaard. I haven't had a chance to read anything on him, but intend to.

POW: I believe I have read the book about Lawrence years ago. Wasn't he the cook who never even knew if he was saved until his dying moments? Good to know it's online!

Christian: Thank you very much for responding again. I will get back with you soon. But I must now retire for the evening.

DLW
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 6/9/2003 6:19 AM (GMT -6)

Pow:A traditionalist is someone who honors and respects Christian traditions and spends a good deal of time steeping themselves in them and tries to draw from them to inform current practice.

You have a wider knowledge base than I do at this.

TR:I am a professor of Economics at the "Yale" of Mexico. I started here in August, not knowing hardly any Spanish. I am getting better but it is slow because I teach and do research and spend a good deal of my recreation time with Sola English.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 6/9/2003 9:07 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Lone Ranger, I know exactly what you mean and i have thought the same things myself. There's no question that the kinds of physical miracles that occurred quite commonly in the Bible do not happen today. One thing I've thought is that there were special purposes for those miracles - many in the OT were to show God's power as the Lord of the Jews - and to establish their position in the Holy Land.

Another thing I've thought of is that we live in a scientific age. How many of us would believe someone who came and told us that God appeared to them in a burning bush ? We'd probably think they were on drugs. You probably don't believe in the miracles of the crying Virgin Mary , etc. that many people do in fact believe in.

The superstition of someone throwing the Bible on the floor to see where the scripture will open to is laughable!

I think god has endowed us with reason and intelligence and we have enough of it to be able to make reasoned decisions about our lives with the moral assistance of the Bible.

Maybe what it boils down to is living a life of service for others - Mother Teresa comes to mind - . I'm not like that at all ( I wish i was) But perhaps that's what God cares about now. Not who we marry,w here we live, what our job is - as long as they comport with the moral guidance of the Bible and as long as our first aim is to Serve God and others.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/9/2003 9:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
DLW

Pow, A traditionalist is someone who honors and respects Christian traditions and spends a good deal of time steeping themselves in them and tries to draw from them to inform current practice.

I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY LIKE THESE TWO (2) DEFINITIONS:

Tradition is the living faith of the dead;
traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.
(GK Chesterton, Orthodoxy)

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/09/2003 3:00:35 PM

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