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0CT0R0K
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/7/2003 2:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | Recently I was debating with a man who is very "pro-homosexual" and wants to see the Church being more involved in the matters and differences of this 'alternative lifestyle'. Most notably with the church marrying two same-sex partners.
He told me that since Jesus never said it was wrong to be homosexual, than in fact it must be okay. I've heard people use this argument before and well ... I just don't know how to respond.
Forgive me for always only posting questions, and never actually getting involved in the topics. I feel sometimes like I am way below you guys in knowledge haha 
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/7/2003 4:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
He told me that since Jesus never said it was wrong to be homosexual, than in fact it must be okay.
The Son of God was became incarnate three ways: in His Creation, in the Given "Word" (Scripture), and in Christ Jesus.
Your friend can not claim that the Son of God didn't, even if the man "Jesus" did not.
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0CT0R0K
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Date Joined Dec 2002
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| Posted 6/7/2003 7:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you for taking my animated octorok 
I mentioned that same point you just said, but before you replied to this. Now however, his argument is:
"And you don't think that Paul's time as a law happy pharasie could have influenced his teachings at all?"
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/7/2003 9:02 PM (GMT -6) | | I would ask him if he believes Paul's writings are divinely inspired. I would recommend Joe Dallas's book A Strong Delusion: COnfronting The "Gay Christian" Movement. HE was a "gay" Christian for awhile. In it he gives four responses to that question.
1)the argument assumes that the Gospels are more authoritative than the rest of the books.
2)the argument assumes that the Gospels are more comprehensive than they really are.
3)this argument is inaccurate in that it presumes to know all of what Jesus said.
4)this argument wrongly assumes that because Jesus said nothing specifically about homosexuality, he said nothing about heterosexuality as a standard.
I have summaried Dallas' arguments from his book because of their length. I hope this helps.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/8/2003 2:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
said:
I mentioned that same point you just said, but before you replied to this. Now however, his argument is:
"And you don't think that Paul's time as a law happy pharasie could have influenced his teachings at all?"
Paul's Pharasie time was not a total waste. The Word is the Word. But Paul's message AFTER meeting Christ head on was the same as Peter's:
Peter writes in his second epistle that our Lord's "divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness," so that through his promises we "may participate in [literally, "become sharers (koinonoi) of"] the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires" (2 Pet. 1:4).
The THESIS of Paul's preaching was the making of saints--conforming to the image of Chirst. Not copying outward behavior, like the pharasies. What Paul preached and taught was:
Romans 12 : 1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Your friend wants to HAVE his sacrifice AND walk around in it too. (Did that joke work? "cake...and eat it too..." Hmmm...) | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/9/2003 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Octorok,
We've been going over this topic for some time in the apologetics forum.
I reposted a good deal of it in the problem of evil forum. Starting with my own story about how I have dealt with similar discussions.
Greg Boyd poses a good set of questions rather later in the link and Iconoclast, me and john earp give a full set of answers and Pow answered the first question.
I know that is a daunting amount of material, but I would encourage you to check it out.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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OrthodoxBerean
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 6/12/2003 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Recently I was debating with a man who is very "pro-homosexual" and wants to see the Church being more involved in the matters and differences of this 'alternative lifestyle'. Most notably with the church marrying two same-sex partners.
He told me that since Jesus never said it was wrong to be homosexual, than in fact it must be okay. I've heard people use this argument before and well ... I just don't know how to respond.
Forgive me for always only posting questions, and never actually getting involved in the topics. I feel sometimes like I am way below you guys in knowledge haha
This is horribly reasoning. It was not Jesus intention when he came to give a list of what was right and what was wrong. Why would he say it was wrong. One could cleary see from the Law that it was. It would have be silly for Jesus to tell the people, especially the Orthodox Jews that homosexuality was wrong. It was in their writtings already as wrong. Jesus did not say that charging in interest was wrong in the gospels either, but we know that it was forbidden in the law.
It is not really an argument as much as it is wishful thinking. That is "wouldn't it be nice if we could do anything we wanted jsut as long as it was not forbidden in the New Testament?"
It seems like you might want to start with this guy on a different foot. Sometimes if certain foundational knowledge is not their it will be impossible for that person to see what in the world you are saying. Why is it important for him that Jesus specifcally said it. He is the same God that moved the writers of the Old T. He gave the Law to Moses. In that sense he did say it.....
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/12/2003 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | And of course, Christian tradition has changed so that now the charging of interest isn't wrong.
So if that can happen for the charging of interest, why can't something similar(theoretically speaking) be true for homosexuality?
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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OrthodoxBerean
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 82
| Posted 6/12/2003 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
And of course, Christian tradition has changed so that now the charging of interest isn't wrong.
What made charging of interest stop being wrong? It is wrong, the fact that a society or a culture has it embedded in it functionality does not make it right.
Yet, there is a differnce in the moral law relative to "charging interest" and "homosexuality". Homosexuality is a sin that affects the body. It is violates the "natural". God made bodies intended for certain acts. The idea becomes more clear when we discover what and why were were made and are here for. We are part of a society that was made for specifc purposes. Homosexuality goes against the very thing that we were intended to do. It would be like using a knife for a hammer.
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/12/2003 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | We have discussed this at length in the other links.
I will simply point out that there was no concept of homosexuality among the writers of the Bible. A better translation of what they wrote concerned homosexual acts. And concerning homosexual acts, specifically anal intercourse between males, I am in whole-hearted agreement with you.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/12/2003 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
OrthodoxBerean
Why is it important for him that Jesus specifcally said it. He is the same God that moved the writers of the Old T. He gave the Law to Moses. In that sense he did say it.....
quote:
Not only is the subject of Scripture, from beginning to end, Jesus Christ, but he also is its ultimate author. Jesus Christ is, for example, the author of the covenants with Abraham and with Moses:
One and the same Householder produced both covenants, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who spoke with both Abraham and Moses, and who has restored us anew to liberty, and has multiplied that grace which is from himself. (Irenaeus, AH 4.9.1)
Christ's claim, that "Moses wrote of me" (Jn 5:46), is taken by Irenaeus to mean that "the writings of Moses are his [Christ's] words," and extended to include "the words of the other prophets" (Irenaeus, AH4.23). I his prophetic element is clearly important for Irenaeus, and it gives a very dynamic quality to his presentation of the economy of God unaided in the scriptural history of salvation.9
J. Behr The Formation Of Christian Theology, Vol One: The Way To Nicea
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Christian
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 6/12/2003 11:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Orthodox Berean, it is nice to see someone new say something new on the issue of homosexuality. You made some extremely insightful comments. Thank you for speaking them. They help me to sort out my own frustrations with the premise that homosexuality is not wrong or harmful. It amazes me that people believe the lie of it not being harmful. All a person needs to do is look at AIDS statistics to see the harm. In fact, didn't AIDS develop as a result of homosexuality? I have not studied AIDS, so I may be wrong but I thought that was the case. Your brief comments are some of the best comments I have heard about homosexuality. It is ludicrous to claim that there is no concept of homosexuality in the Bible.
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/12/2003 12:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Um, it is likely that homosexuality spreads in part through the homosexual community. Since the male rectum was not meant to have anything go up through it, homosexual acts tend to cause damage, which makes the spread of aids easier between homosexuals.
It also spreads easily through junkies using intravenous needles and heterosexuals whose promiscuousness makes them get STDS that facilitate the spread of aids.
Note: I meant constitutional homosexuality whereby someone develops a sexual attraction for people of the same sex later in life due to their hormonal balance that fails to develop as it should while they are in the womb.
This is wrong, in the same sense that people born with birth-defects or genetic propensities to alcoholism are wrong, but it is not a product of choices the individual's choices and it is generally quite difficult for constitutional homosexuals to straighten themselves out.
Now, only a very small portion of the population tends to be like this, but you can read about this debate in the other links.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/12/2003 12:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW
This is wrong, in the same sense that people born with birth-defects or genetic propensities to alcoholism are wrong, but it is not a product of choices the individual's choices and it is generally quite difficult for constitutional homosexuals to straighten themselves out.
DLW has been exteremly unclear about his possition.
But it is enough to say, TRUTHFULLY, that there is NO need for a "constitutional homosexuals to straighten themselves out" -- just to remain celebate like any other virgin or temperate, self-controlled/Spirit-controled believer. The Church (I posted a variety of denominational statements each saying this--but DLW's heat-under-the-collar makes him forget this.) does not condemn the person or the impulse; it guides away from sin, and offers forgiveness. (NO TANGENTS, PLEASE, DLW.)
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DLW
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| Posted 6/12/2003 12:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW has been exteremly unclear about his possition.
Pow is showing his age . I have been clear about my position. I am opposed to homosexual acts as sin, but believe that monogamous relationships that do not engage in homosexual acts and emulate the Christian ideal in every other way ideally should be accepted as legitimate institutions to keep constitutional homosexuals from sinning, just as marriages keep heterosexuals from committing adultery.
quote:
But it is enough to say, TRUTHFULLY, that there is NO need for a "constitutional homosexuals to straighten themselves out" -- just to remain celebate like any other virgin or temperate, self-controlled/Spirit-controled believer. The Church (I posted a variety of denominational statements each saying this--but DLW's heat-under-the-collar makes him forget this.) does not condemn the person or the impulse; it guides away from sin, and offers forgiveness. (NO TANGENTS, PLEASE, DLW.)
Your general views fall under a distnctly non-Euclidean flavor Pow so a tangent will likely intersect the subject anyways .
for a thorough review on this issue, please do consult the other links...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/12/2003 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW
Pow is showing his age. I have been clear about my position. I am opposed to homosexual acts as sin, but believe that monogamous relationships that do not engage in homosexual acts and emulate the Christian ideal in every other way ideally should be accepted as legitimate institutions to keep constitutional homosexuals from sinning, just as marriages keep heterosexuals from committing adultery.
You call that "clear." Just what above requiers being "accepted as legitimate." If there is something wrong with what you say, then it is wrong. If it does not involve sin, then why does is NEED to be "accepted?" you leave the reader waiting for the "other shoe to drop."
You say here "not engage in homosexual acts AND emulate the Christian ideal in every other way" (My caps. Perhaps a BUT?) The "just as marriages" part raises questions. And the questions include the whole thing of "what's he saying?"
Can you be more explicite, DLW??? | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/17/2003 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Okay, I think what is at the heart of my not being clear is my personal ambiguity over what is meant by heterosexual acts. For the most part, I was interpreting it to mean anal intercourse, but clearly that is impossible for lesbians and female bisexuals and yet there heterosexual acts, as illustrated by the movie "Kissing Jessica Stein" are wrong.
So I am not sure myself what actions should be acceptable for a monogamous heterosexual relationship. The two should not become one, but I don't think it should be anything else goes. Just as I am opposed to everything but sex in premarital relationships.
So my beliefs on such concrete specifics are not clear-cut and my belief that some form of homosexual relationship may prove to be God-glorifying by providing mutual accountability against their sinful natures is a leap of faith for me at this point.
thats all for me for now...
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 6/19/2003 7:21 PM (GMT -6) | | OrthodoxBerean
What made charging of interest stop being wrong? It is wrong, the fact that a society or a culture has it embedded in it functionality does not make it right.
Iconoclast
I definitely agree that homosexuality is every bit as wrong as charging interest. My question is: should us Christians stop putting our money in interest bearing accounts? And why exactly do we as Christians take such a strong stand against homosexuality and yet say absolutely nothing about interest rates except to complain that they are too low for our savings account and too high for our mortgage? What up with that?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/19/2003 8:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
OrthodoxBerean
What made charging of interest stop being wrong? It is wrong, the fact that a society or a culture has it embedded in it functionality does not make it right.
Iconoclast
I definitely agree that homosexuality is every bit as wrong as charging interest. My question is: should us Christians stop putting our money in interest bearing accounts? And why exactly do we as Christians take such a strong stand against homosexuality and yet say absolutely nothing about interest rates except to complain that they are too low for our savings account and too high for our mortgage? What up with that?
As they are clearly secular institutions, banks are not under Christian moral obligations. As a Christian I never charge interest to people who ask to borrow what little money I may have. I don't even ask for it back.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/20/2003 1:37 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp
quote:
As a Christian I never charge interest to people who ask to borrow what little money I may have. I don't even ask for it back.
Can I borrow $20.00? ;@)
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/20/2003 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | 
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/8/2003 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | The prohibition against charging interest was based on a static view of value derived from Aristotle. It was also meant to be a check against the abuse of power by the wealthy.
As our ideas have changed, our views on interest have changed, but the principles still remain.
Our views on homosexuality have changed, but the principles still remain. Much of homosexual acts are not constitutional as illustrated in my commentaries on gay-rights activist films in the other forum shows... . Much of it is an attack on customs that are worth keeping in large part.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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