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Laplace
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138

Posted 6/13/2003 10:58 AM (GMT -6)

Something I was thinking of. If we say that darkness is not a tangible thing but merely an expression of the absence of light, a shadow, I wonder if this concept translates into the emotional world.

For example, there are certain emotions which are sinful. Lust, envy, greed, pride, worry, etc. The question arises, are these emotions simply perversions of something good (like lust is just the wrong expression of sexual feelings which in and of itself is not sinful), or are they the absence of "good" emotions (humility, contentment, etc.)?

Deeper Question: There seems to be some emotions of God which are not desirable, but still present. God for example can experience, grief, regret, hate, and anger. Therefore, these emotions cannot be "bad" in and of itself. But if they are not "bad", why then will there be an eventual end to all these emotions once Heaven is fully established? Not that I'd want there to be, but the thought of not even having KNOWLEDGE or REMEMBERENCE of what felt like to be lonely, depressed, frustrated, etc. Only knowing perpetual joy and love? That's about as incomprehensible as eternity itself.

Any thoughts?

"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 6/13/2003 7:00 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Laplace: For example, there are certain emotions which are sinful. Lust, envy, greed, pride, worry, etc. The question arises, are these emotions simply perversions of something good (like lust is just the wrong expression of sexual feelings which in and of itself is not sinful), or are they the absence of "good" emotions (humility, contentment, etc.)?

That is a great question. If evil doesn’t exist until it is actualized by a creaturely choice, then there would be an absence of the “bad” emotions while the good ones were in process. However, not presently experiencing a particular “good” emotion may not necessarily entail a manifestation of the “bad” emotion. So maybe it’s an absence of the good combined with a choice for the perversion.

quote:
Deeper Question: There seems to be some emotions of God which are not desirable, but still present. God for example can experience, grief, regret, hate, and anger. Therefore, these emotions cannot be "bad" in and of itself. But if they are not "bad", why then will there be an eventual end to all these emotions once Heaven is fully established? Not that I'd want there to be, but the thought of not even having KNOWLEDGE or REMEMBERENCE of what felt like to be lonely, depressed, frustrated, etc. Only knowing perpetual joy and love? That's about as incomprehensible as eternity itself.

I think that grief, regret, and anger differ from being lonely, depressed and frustrated. I can imagine not being lonely, depressed or frustrated for eternity, and understanding how little consequence past experiences of those emotions were, to the point that they were inconsequential, and swallowed up in the glory of God. I can even see all our personal grief, regret and anger from the past being wiped away. But I wonder if that means will we never experience those emotions again. What about what God said about making us co-rulers in a new heaven and earth? Could that be a context for their exercise? I have never known leadership to be without them.

FWIW,
Springs

"Your love will kill me." Lyrics by Luc Plamondon for Notre-Dame de Paris, based on The Hunchback of Notre-Dame by Victor Hugo.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/13/2003 7:53 PM (GMT -6)

Laplace

For example, there are certain emotions which are sinful. Lust, envy, greed, pride, worry, etc.

John

I think it is more accurate to call what you have listed above as choices, not emotions. Emotions are involuntary responses. To lust, envy, be greedy, prideful, to worry--all of these are choices one makes in response to situations they face and to some extent the internal psychology of the invidual.

Laplace

Deeper Question: There seems to be some emotions of God which are not desirable, but still present. God for example can experience, grief, regret, hate, and anger. Therefore, these emotions cannot be "bad" in and of itself. But if they are not "bad", why then will there be an eventual end to all these emotions once Heaven is fully established? Not that I'd want there to be, but the thought of not even having KNOWLEDGE or REMEMBERENCE of what felt like to be lonely, depressed, frustrated, etc. Only knowing perpetual joy and love? That's about as incomprehensible as eternity itself.

John

I think the answer will be found if we ask ourselves WHY will these negative emotions no longer be?

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 6/14/2003 2:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Laplace

For example, there are certain emotions which are sinful. Lust, envy, greed, pride, worry, etc.

John

I think it is more accurate to call what you have listed above as choices, not emotions. Emotions are involuntary responses. To lust, envy, be greedy, prideful, to worry--all of these are choices one makes in response to situations they face and to some extent the internal psychology of the invidual.

selah

John's comment: "emotions are involuntary responses" is true to some degree. They are responses-- the question is what are they responding to? And, as far as them being involuntary--I think they are involuntary insofar as we let them be. We all have an "autopilot" but do we have to let it run us? Is it biblical?
I think his point about emotions being "choices" brings us closer to the truth. Isn't it possible that if we were to practice taking our thoughts captive (thoughts always preceed emotion) we would notice how much control we have over our emotions? If we could master that, then we would be able to choose which emotion would best serve a particular purpose or situation. This would mean that our emotions are there to serve us, not as involuntary responses. We could respond in an appropriate way to our thoughts if we first take them captive and lead them to Christ (truth).

Oops, gotta run!
love
selah

Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

Edited by - Selah on 06/14/2003 08:00:07 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/14/2003 6:41 AM (GMT -6)

Great post, Selah!

Here's my line of thought: I wanted to remember where I'd read something that showed how "LUST" can sometimes be a good thing, anger natural, jealousy too, and coveted. Real head-turners! I found it.

Please let me share it here. Its from the head of a monastic community in Greece.

quote:
d) Neptic life is social life; and it is in fact social live par excellence, because it helps a person to reclaim the natural faculties of his soul and to function, from this point on, "according to nature" (i.e., as God intended).

In the teaching of the holy Fathers passions are not outside forces which enter us and must thus be uprooted. Rather they are energies of the soul which have been disturbed and need to be transformed.

A person's soul s far as the passions are concerned is divided into three faculties: the intelligent (reasoning), the appetitive (desire) and the irascible (affective). These three faculties must be directed toward God. When they turn away from Him and others they become known as passions. For this reason, passion is movement of the soul contrary to nature.

St. John the Sinaite makes this quite clear by using certain examples. Conjugal relations are quite natural for procreation; however contemporary man has altered their significance into something banal. Anger is natural when directed against the evil one, however we use it against our brothers. Jealousy is natural as long as what is coveted and emulated are the virtues of the saints. However, this also gets employed against our brothers.

Desire for glory is inherent provided it is the kingdom of Heaven that is sought but unfortunately this desire is expended on trivial, temporal and mundane things. Pride connected with glory is natural when turned against the demons. Gladness is natural when it is in Christ. We have received rancour from God to use it against the demons. We have received inclination for true extravagance, which is related to the desire for the wealth of eternity. Yet we turn this into squandering. Thus the passions are the movement of the soul's faculties contrary to nature.

Within the perspective of Orthodox spirituality when a person is liberated from self-conceit, which begets worldliness, avarice and ambition, he acquires love for God and love for men. He truly loves others. . . . . .

quoted from the section: "Neptic and Social Theology", in Orthodox Spirituality, by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b15.en.orthodox_spirituality.02.htm#or7

I liked what SELAH and JOHN said: "emotions are involuntary responses" is true to some degree.

Add to that, like Paul's discussion of the athlete TRAINING, that they must be prepared for -- to be remade ("transformed," like in Romans 12) -- so that they won't be the kind of thing defined as above as "passions" (energies of the soul which have been disturbed ) but will be PASSIONATE fo God!

PoW

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/14/2003 11:45:25 AM

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/14/2003 9:48 AM (GMT -6)

To further clarify what I meant, let me use an example to illustrate:

For the sake of argument, let's say I witness a murder. My emotional response to this knowledge is going to be quite predictable, depending on the character I have developed, and the experiences I have had up to this point in my life. It also will be predictable in general how ANY normal human would react. However, my choice as to how to respond in this situation is that which I do have control over.

By the way, I certainly agree that one should not be ruled by one's emotions, and should seek to "take captive every thought to the obedience of Christ." However, it should be distinctly borne in mind that emotions are involuntary responses as opposed to choices, which are by definition voluntary, and these both should be distinguished from thoughts, which have to do with both categories but are also distinct from both. Choosing to direct one's thoughts towards an object begets emotions of some degree and of some kind.

The following excerpt from Finney's _Lectures on Revival_ elucidates this point:

II. HOW IS THE FALLOW GROUND TO BE BROKEN UP?

1. It is not by any direct efforts to feel. People run into a mistake on this subject, from not making the laws of mind the object of thought. There are great errors on the subject of the laws which govern the mind. People talk about religious feeling, as if they thought they could, by direct effort, call forth religious affection. But this is not the way the mind acts. No man can make himself feel in this way, merely by trying to feel. The feelings of the mind are not directly under our control. We cannot by willing, or by direct volition, call forth religious feelings. We might as well think to call spirits up from the deep. They are purely involuntary states of mind. They naturally and necessarily exist in the mind under certain circumstances calculated to excite them. But they can be controlled indirectly. Otherwise there would be no moral character in our feelings, if there were not a way to control them. We cannot say, "Now I will feel so and so towards such an object." But we can command our attention to it, and look at it intently, till the involuntary affections arise. Let a man who is away from his family, bring them up before his mind, and will he not feel? But it is not by saying to himself, "Now I will feel deeply for my family." A man can direct his attention to any object, about which he ought to feel and wishes to feel, and in that way he will call into existence the proper emotions. Let a man call up his enemy before his mind, and his feelings of enmity will rise. So if a man thinks of God, and fastens his mind on any parts of God's character, he will feel--emotions will come up, by the very laws of mind. If he is a friend of God, let him contemplate God as a gracious and holy being, and he will have emotions of friendship kindled up in his mind. If he is an enemy of God, only let him get the true character of God before his mind, and look at it, and fasten his attention on it, and his enmity will rise against God, or he will break down and give his heart to God.

If you wish to break up the fallow ground of your hearts, and make your minds feel on the subject of religion, you must go to work just as you would to feel on any other subject. Instead of keeping your thoughts on every thing else, and then imagine that by going to a few meetings you will get your feelings enlisted, go the common sense way to work, as you would on any other subject. It is just as easy to make your minds feel on the subject of religion as it is on any other subject. God has put these states of mind under your control. If people were as unphilosophical about moving their limbs, as they are about regulating their emotions, you would never have got here to meeting to-night.

If you mean to break up the fallow ground of your hearts, you must begin by looking at your hearts--examine and note the state of your minds, and see where you are. Many never seem to think about this. They pay no attention to their own hearts, and never know whether they are doing well in religion or not--whether they are gaining ground or going back--whether they are fruitful, or lying waste like the fallow ground. Now you must draw off your attention from other things, and look into this. Make a business of it. Do not be in a hurry. Examine thoroughly the state of your hearts, and see where you are--whether you are walking with God every day, or walking with the devil--whether you are serving God or serving the devil most--whether you are under the dominion of the prince of darkness, or the Lord Jesus Christ.

To do all this, you must set yourself at work to consider your sins. You must examine yourselves. And by this I do not mean, that you must stop and look directly within to see what is the present state of your feelings. That is the very way to put a stop to all feeling. This is just as absurd as it would be for a man to shut his eyes on the lamp, and try to turn his eyes inward to find out whether there was any image painted on the retina. The man complains that he does not see anything! And why? Because he has turned his eyes away from the objects of sight. The truth is, our moral feelings are as much an object of consciousness as our sensations. And the way to excite is to go on acting, and employing our minds. Then we can tell our moral feelings by consciousness, just as I could tell my natural feelings by consciousness, if I should put my hand in the fire.

Self-examination consists in looking at your lives, in considering your actions, in calling up the past, and learning its true character. Look back over your past history. Take up your individual sins one by one, and look at them. I do not mean that you should just cast a glance at your past life, and see that it has been full of sins, and then go to God and make a sort of general confession, and ask for pardon. That is not the way. You must take them up one by one. It will be a good thing to take a pen and paper, as you go over them, and write them down as they occur to you. Go over them as carefully as a merchant goes over his books; and as often as a sin comes before your memory, add it to the list. General confessions of sin will never do. Your sins were committed one by one; and as far as you can come at them, they ought to be reviewed and repented of one by one. Now begin; and take up first what are commonly, but improperly, called your

SINS OF OMISSION... (end quote)

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1868Lect_on_Rev_of_Rel/68revlec03.htm

(I highly recommend reading the entire lecture, HOW TO PROMOTE A REVIVAL, taken from the scripture text, --Break up your fallow ground; for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.--HOSEA X. 12.)

The following excerpt from Finney's _Guide to the Savior_ discusses the problem of confusing feelings with voluntary decisions with regard to God:

III. Not by any direct efforts to feel right. Many spend their time in vain efforts to force themselves into a right state of feeling. Now it should be forever understood, that religion does not consist in a mere feeling, emotion, or involuntary affection of any kind. Feelings do not result from a direct effort to feel. But on the contrary, they are the spontaneous actings of the mind when it has under its direct and deep consideration the objects, truths, facts or realities that are correlated to these involuntary emotions. They are the most easy and natural state of mind possible under such circumstances. So far from its requiring an effort to put them forth, it would rather require an effort to prevent them, when the mind is intensely considering those objects and considerations which have a natural tendency to produce them. This is so true that when persons are in the exercise of such affections, they feel no difficulty at all in their exercise, but wonder how any one can help feeling as they do. It seems to them so natural, so easy, and I may say so almost unavoidable, that they often feel and express astonishment that any one should find it difficult to exercise the feelings of which they are conscious. The course that many persons take on the subject of religion has often appeared wonderful to me. They make themselves, their own state and interest, the central point around which their own minds are continually revolving. Their selfishness is so great that their own interests, happiness, and salvation, fill their whole field of vision. And with their thoughts and anxieties, and whole souls clustering around their own salvation, they complain of a hard heart--that they can not love God --that they do not repent and can not believe. They manifestly regard love to God, repentance, faith, and all religion, as consisting in mere feeling. Being conscious that they do not feel right, as they express it, they are the more concerned about themselves, which concern but increases their embarassment and the difficulty of exercising what they call right affections. The less they feel, the more they try to feel--the greater efforts they make to feel right without success, the more are they confirmed in their selfishness, and the more are their thoughts glued to their own interests; and they are of course at a greater and greater distance from any right state of mind. And thus their selfish anxieties beget ineffectual efforts, and these efforts but deepen their anxieties. And if in this state, death should appear in a visible form before them, or the last trumpet sound, and they should be summoned to the solemn Judgment it would but increase their distraction, confirm and almost give omnipotence to their selfishness, and render their sanctification morally impossible. It should never be forgotten that all true religion consists in voluntary states of mind, and that the true and only way to attain to true religion is to look at and understand the exact thing to be done and then to put forth at once the voluntary exercise required.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1848guidetothesavior.htm

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/14/2003 4:02:07 PM

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