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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
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Posted 6/17/2003 5:08 AM (GMT -6)

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/17/2003 5:10 AM (GMT -6)

Want to examine and discuss HEBREWS?

abraham_melch3.jpg

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/17/2003 10:35 AM (GMT -6)

Just reading through it this week. Hoping to teach it at Sunday School! (I didn't bring a can-opener, though!)

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/18/2003 3:57 PM (GMT -6)

Hey, by the way, if anyone knows of a good online commentary for the book of Hebrews, I'd sure appreciate hearing about it. I have no access to books, and I'm trying to do some research on Hebrews for Sunday School.

Thanks much,

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

0CT0R0K
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 50

Posted 6/18/2003 7:05 PM (GMT -6)

its sad that money is holding many back from gaining knowledge in books. the library just doesn't cut it sometimes

i hope you find what you're looking for by the way!

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/18/2003 7:26 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

Hey, by the way, if anyone knows of a good online commentary for the book of Hebrews, I'd sure appreciate hearing about it. I have no access to books, and I'm trying to do some research on Hebrews for Sunday School.

Hey Starkman,

The following commentaries are available online:

Adam Clarke’s Commentary:

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeheb1.htm

Wesley’s NT Notes:

http://www.godrules.net/library/wesley/wesleyheb1.htm

Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown:

http://www.godrules.net/library/jfbcomm/jfbcommheb1.htm

Matthew Henry:

http://www.godrules.net/library/henry/henryheb1.htm

I'm sure you could find even more with a Google search (no doubt there are many commentaries available online at CCEL), but this site is one I have known of for several years now. Very nice. And the owner provides a CD of everything on his site for only $20! Tons of great material available at this site.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/19/2003 2:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
there are many commentaries available online at CCEL), but this site is one I have known of for several years now. Very nice. And the owner provides a CD of everything on his site for only $20! Tons of great material available at this site.

BTW, the owner is Harry Plantinga. (Many of you know that last name!) He had it while teaching at Wheaton College. Wheaton unwisely underappreciated it, so, when Harry moved back to his alma mater Calvin College he took it with him. Calvin, wisely, accepted it with open arms.

Harry and his wife are great people.

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 6/19/2003 3:10 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
the library just doesn't cut it sometimes

Actually, give your local university library a gander. The one that I am at right now (where I do all my posting from) has enormous resources! They usually specialize in books the way that the public library does not.

Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/19/2003 3:34 AM (GMT -6)

John,

Thanks much for the references. Hmm! I never thought to check CCEL, so I'll have to do that. Thanks again.

Brandon,

Well, the only university in the area is the University of Minnesota at Morris. Much Liberal Arts. But yeah, there could be some goodies there. I'll have to make a trip there sometime when I decide to play hookie/ey from work!

Thanks again, ya'll,

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 6/19/2003 3:43 AM (GMT -6)

starkman

quote:

Well, the only university in the area is the University of Minnesota at Morris. Much Liberal Arts. But yeah, there could be some goodies there.

Starkman, the University of Minnesota(s) have a campus inter-library loan system; so if you can find it in the online catalog (Lumina), you can probably request it from wherever it actually resides.

https://www.lib.umn.edu/ordering/ill.phtml

Edited by - Laika on 06/19/2003 08:51:10 AM

LDR
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 7

Posted 6/19/2003 8:37 AM (GMT -6)

I have been studying Hebrews for perhaps 6 or 7 weeks, and what a joy! I was raised under the old covenant in a 'Christian' denomination and did not know quite how to read the Word as it reads. I see far more clearly now, and Hebrews is rich . . . exalting Jesus and the new covenant He made with us, at every step! Praise His name! Enjoy!!

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/19/2003 11:56 AM (GMT -6)

Laika,

Yeah, I'm familiar with the inter-library loan system, but I was under the impression that you had to be a student, which I'm not, to use the system?

LDR,

You are SO right about the book. It is really a wonderfully, rich book. I'm looking forward to teaching it.

Thanks,

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 6/19/2003 1:47 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

Laika,

Yeah, I'm familiar with the inter-library loan system, but I was under the impression that you had to be a student, which I'm not, to use the system?

Are you an alumni of any Minnesota university? You're right, you need to be a student, faculty or alumni.

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/22/2003 8:07 AM (GMT -6)

I haven't given up on this thread. I've finally gotten the initial study done to get some info in here. Anyone else wanting to contribute to a study of the book of Hebrews, jump right in. I'm hoping to have some stuff in here by the end of this day (or at least in the latter afternoon--the dog-gone end-of-the-day around here right now is like 9:45pm, what with the sun not getting tired until then!)

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 6/23/2003 1:01 AM (GMT -6)

Think *better*

peace and love, don

---
"You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/23/2003 4:35 AM (GMT -6)

RATS! I would have had some stuff up here last night, but he had a nasty storm last night. I wasn't daring enough to keep the computer on during THAT storm! But ... I will be back!

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

David
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 3

Posted 6/23/2003 6:11 AM (GMT -6)

Starkman,

For another online resource on the book of Hebrews, consider J. Piper's sermon series through the book of Hebrews in 1996 and 1997, starting on March 31, 1996. Not where you might expect to get pointed to from this site, but it's available if you're interested. Follow this link to see manuscripts of his sermons sorted by year: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons_index.html Choose 1996 and you will see the sermon titles and scripture references for each week.

David

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/23/2003 4:58 PM (GMT -6)

David,

Way cool! Thanks. I've just finished my notes for this post, but I'll read those right away.

Here then is the beginning of my contribution to this study:

INTRODUCTION TO THE DISCUSSION

Why has God given us the book? What does God want us to better understand (about Him and our relationship with Him) from this book? These are questions which unfold most fully for me when I first ask another question, one that has become my "mission" question anytime I read God's Word, and it is this: what does this (that portion of God's Word I'm reading) reveal about the heart of God in regard to His desire for relationship with us? It is from this framework I, myself, approach God's Word, and particularly the book of Hebrews for this study. This is how I hope to contribute to this study.

INTRODUCTION TO THE BOOK

* Authorship: still up for grabs
* Audience: agreed by most scholars as being written to Jews
* Date: before (it is believed) the destruction of the temple
* Message: the better covenant; the sufficient covenant
* Occasion for the writing:
A. audience thought to highly of angels
B. lack of understanding of the work of God in the Christ and in the Law

MOVEMENT AND FLOW OF THE BOOK

The superiority of ...

* the Son's inheritance over the inheritance provided in the Law.
* the Son's sacrifice over the sacrifices of the Law.
* the Son's Melchizedekian priesthood over the Aaronic priesthood.
* faithfullness in endurance over obedience to the Law.
* God's discipline in grace over the discipline under the Law.
* Exhortation

CHAPTER 1

Introduction:

* Three beings are prominent in the first chapter: the Father, the Son and angels.
* The author makes strong contrast between the Father's perspective of the Son and of the angels.
* Some loaded words and phrases (needing to be unpacked unlike succeeding chapters) are prophet, heir, firstborn, Son, name, "express image," "upholding all things." The author didn't take the time to give the theologies and concepts of these words; he did, however, quote from or allude to the Old Testament frequently, which will help us to conceive an understanding of what was going on in the author's mind.

The Contents:

1:1-2
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom also He made the world (NASB and all references hereafter unless stated otherwise.)

1:1
It is "in [or by] the prophets" God spoke; the author is very specific. The scope of prophecying (particularly in this instance) is seen, perhaps, most broadly in the ministry of Moses. He is the prophet of the Lord, but he is more; he is the deliverer of Israel, the shadow of the Messiah to come. He is of the tribe of Levi; those whom God entrusted to administer the religious side of the Law. Moses is, therefore, qualified to talk as one in utmost authority in regard to the things of the Law. He is God's spokesman; God speaks directly to Him, face to face (Numbers 12); his prophecies (declarations) are not just from God, but from a face-to-face encounter with God. Moses speaks of the future; he is given first-hand revelation of things to come regarding the Children of Israel and the world in general.

David is another example of the broadness of a prophet. He isn't of the tribe of Levi, and therefore isn't concerned about the administrative functions of the Law--Moses had already achieved the highest standard and calling of one in this capacity. But David is concerned about one's keeping of and obedience to the Law (Ps 119). His approach to prophecy comes into light when he speaks mystically, if not cryptically, in the psalms he wrote, which Peter in the book of Acts will quote rather than quoting Moses; for in David, the essence of prophecy is broadened even more: speaking of the passionate movement of the Messiah, of His work, and of the One who was to send Him.

The futurity of the event was evident, but the declarations weren't always so. The broad scope of the prophet's ministry is necessary to understand, first because it is how God has presented the words of the prophet, and second, particularly in the book of Hebrews, because the author of the book must combat the extra burden his audience has placed upon the prophet's words (particularly Moses') in view of the futurity having moved into the present. The paradigm of the prophet's words had indeed shifted, and the message of his words are broadened again.

Edited by - Starkman on 06/24/2003 10:16:57 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/23/2003 6:51 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
David,

Way cool! Thanks. I've just finished my notes for this post, but I'll read those right away.

Here then is the beginning of my contribution to this study:

Thanks, David and Starkman!

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/24/2003 5:18 PM (GMT -6)

1:1-2
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom also He made the world.

1:2
In view of the broadness of the prophets' words (and call), the fullness, breadth and depth of the meaning behind God speaking to us through His Son becomes apparent. We should now be able to see that it isn't simply that God spoke through prophets in times past and through His Son in these last days; it is that as time has continued, the clarity of the mind and heart of God, as it reflects His desire for relationship with mankind, can be seen progressing from the prophets into and through the Son. Christ's words, therefore, are like the compressed bursting forth out of the confines of the container. This is more than just the Son "speaking," for His words are life and true food.

Now enters one of those loaded words: heir, and that after a such noble introduction! Using the Word "heir" gives commentary to the word "Son": for if one is a Son, one can inherit (particularly if one is the Firstborn, but that's to anticipate what has yet been stated). It is in this context that the Son--the heir--is said to have been used to make the world. Fancy that! "Through whom also He made the world." He: the presumed Father of the Son. The Father who has apparently found quite the favor (and right) of the Son if He is to give Him the inheritance of ... what? Of all things. The author will eventually tell us what "all things" are, but suffice to say that it is the Father's will to give the Son all things, for He is apparently the rightful heir of such; all things, all of the world, all of it's gold, diamonds and precious jewels: i.e., the very hearts of men. This is what the Son is to heir.

The language of heir, then, places the Son not just into the human element--for being the Son has already done that--but into the very treasure and worth of the world; the soul of the one who respects the Heir's right to claim.

Edited by - Starkman on 06/24/2003 10:35:11 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/24/2003 5:32 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
...through whom also he made the worlds...

"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible." (Nicea)

Often Reformed Christians, especially those who love the Heidelberg Catechism repeat that:

quote:
That the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (who of nothing made heaven and earth, with all that is in them; who likewise upholds and governs the same by his eternal counsel and providence)
is for the sake of Christ his Son, my God and my Father; on whom I rely so entirely, that I have no doubt, but he will provide me with all things necessary for soul and body and further, that he will make whatever evils he sends upon me, in this valley of tears turn out to my advantage; for he is able to do it, being Almighty God, and willing, being a faithful Father.

All the emphasis, habitually, is on the Father as CREATOR. And that is true. It is actually very good Trinitarian theology. EVERYTHING happens from the Father through the Son in the Spirit. Everything.

But Nicea gets is right to -- and we need both of them. Nicea says, "And in one Lord Jesus Christ ... begotten of the Father before all worlds ... by whom all things were made."

All was created by the Son, the Father's Word. We see one God who does one action, and in that we perceive three persons.

...through whom also he made the worlds...

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/24/2003 5:42 PM (GMT -6)

Sooo... those who read the old Heidelberg should ponder more of the Son than just "...the Son of God called "Jesus" ... Because he saveth us, and delivereth us from our sins...

Because Hebrews teaches:

...through whom also he made the worlds...

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/24/2003 5:58 PM (GMT -6)

Amen, Fred!

An after-thought.

It is the author's intention, I believe, to insist upon us that the Son does not claim rights to all because He was the agent by whom the Father made all things, but ... because He is Heir! It is in His stately position as Heir, the author says, that he "inherits" all things, not because He's the Son in and of itself.

I think this is important, because the concept of heir sets up the reader's thinking to find out "how" this Son inherits all things. It wouldn't serve the author's purposes (or God's) for the author to have meant "He owns all things," or even "all things have been given to Him," because this doesn't address the context of the better covenant: relationship established by means of One who cuts a covenant and thus becomes the rightful heir, not just because He's the Son. Being the Son alone doesn't solve man's delimma; being the Son who is the rightful Heir does.

Starkman

Edited by - Starkman on 06/24/2003 11:07:26 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/24/2003 6:22 PM (GMT -6)

Amen, Starkman. It is the as "heir" in His humanity.

quote:
The Word of God was the "natural heir" to all things, but now, having taken on human nature, He is appointed heir so that all men might become heirs through him. (Archbishop Dimitri Royster)

It was for US that he became human.

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