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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/25/2003 4:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | Has anyone read any Spinoza? ANy comments?
Although not a Christian in the orthodox sense (and in fact, I think he was born Jewish)- this philosopher seems so wise to me. His words have given me great comfort.
He is a determinist in every sense of the word, and explains eloquently (in my opinion) how that very fact can cause so much comfort and relief in so many ways.
I'm wondering if anyone cares to talk about him with me... | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/25/2003 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | How does it cause comfort and relief? Wasn't Spinoza considered a heretic among Jews?
ps and would the comfort/relife not be in the form of psychic balm???
When you gettin' back to me on the other thread?
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/25/2003 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW- I'll get back to you on the other thread - soon ! :)
I don't know much about Spinoza's personal background. But as far as his writings, one of the points he makes is that all things are inevitable. There's one quote from him (I don't have in front of me) where he says that the main cause of emotional upset is that people REGRET things- b/c they think things could have been other than what they are. Regret is a wasted emotion...once you accept that things are the way God intended them to be, you are freed. You are freed to live your life without worry.
He likens it to the fact that people are born as babies. No one is born as an adult. That cannot be changed, and so people accept it. No one is upset about the fact that they were not born as an adult. Once things are accepted, then you can make real progress. B/c you then focus on the future, and in creating the causes to effect change. Thinking and stewing about the past is pointless - but that's in fact what you do when you think you could have done otherwise. And of what profit is that? You can't go back and change what has been done.
There have been recent studies done, showing that when consumers are given limitless choice, they tend to regret what they chose. However, when they are just GIVEN something, and they had no other choice, they find it within themselves to accept it, and deal with it, b/c that was they way things had to be. I've found that to be true in my personal life as well. When making a decision, it is harder when you have many many choices - there is then so much room for regret. "Why didn't I do so and so? I COULD have. Wow, I really screwed up. Now I'm marred for life"....etc etc.
Whereas, when you "let go and let God," so to speak, you are secure in the fact that you are exactly in the position where God wants and intends you to be. You don't regret or dwell on the past.
Perhaps this is my own psychic balm! :)
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anewbeginning
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| Posted 7/26/2003 1:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Baruch Spinoza was a determinist extrordinaire, alright. I think he was Einstein's fave as well. Though,wasn't his brand of determinism more "natural" than "theistic"? His view reduced humanity to automata.
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Matthew Timothy Short
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| Posted 7/26/2003 4:55 AM (GMT -6) | | "Regret is a wasted emotion . . . Once you accept that things are the way God intended them to be, you are freed." – by Loaded Statement
A more formal definition of "faith" is given in Essay 4.18.2: "the Assent to any Proposition, not thus made out by the Deductions of Reason; but upon the Credit of the Proposer, as coming from GOD, in some extraordinary way of communication". – I am quoting, John W. Yolton, who is quoting John Locke
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/26/2003 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Baruch Spinoza was a determinist extrordinaire, alright. I think he was Einstein's fave as well. Though,wasn't his brand of determinism more "natural" than "theistic"? His view reduced humanity to automata.
I believe he was a pantheist. RD are you a pantheist ?
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/28/2003 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | | No I'm not a pantheist. Just b/c I admire some of the theories of a philosopher doesn't mean I accept them all. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | But how do you know what is okay and what's not okay to borrow from such ideas? Just because something acts well as a psychic balm doesn't make it true!
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/28/2003 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Surely you DLW, have the capacity and intelligence to make decisions about what you find acceptable in a given philosopher and what you do not. And I'm willing to bet that you don't accept everything that Greg Boyd says, for example, hook line and sinker. You can't be saying that it's all or nothing, are you?
And I am the first to agree that a "psychic balm" is purely emotionalism and not good argument. But that's been used for defending OT as well. Saying that it is more comforting to believe in a God who is more relational than sovereign, who doesn't control the future, etc. The reality is, God is what He is. It makes no difference to truth whether someone is more "comfortable" with a certain view of God. I fully admit that - but I've argued that if OV'ers are going down this route- then CAlvinists can assert their own psychic balm as well - that they find it more comforting to know that God is in charge, that there's a reason behind everything, etc.
As far as Spinoza goes, my intent with this string was not to talk about the OV stuff. I wanted to discuss his thoughts about determinism - I also brought up the fact that I am comforted by some of his sayings, b/c he has some keen insight about regret that has helped me.
Now my personal feelings, etc., are completely irrelevant to academic discussion. I know that. But that doesn't mean I or anyone else is precluded from saying what HAS been helpful, what has comforted, what IS a psychic balm, etc., for us. It doesn't make a proposition more true if i find it more comforting, but I haven't been asserting that. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Surely you DLW, have the capacity and intelligence to make decisions about what you find acceptable in a given philosopher and what you do not. And I'm willing to bet that you don't accept everything that Greg Boyd says, for example, hook line and sinker. You can't be saying that it's all or nothing, are you?
Well, I used to but now sometimes I do have doubts.
quote:
And I am the first to agree that a "psychic balm" is purely emotionalism and not good argument. But that's been used for defending OT as well. Saying that it is more comforting to believe in a God who is more relational than sovereign, who doesn't control the future, etc. The reality is, God is what He is. It makes no difference to truth whether someone is more "comfortable" with a certain view of God. I fully admit that - but I've argued that if OV'ers are going down this route- then CAlvinists can assert their own psychic balm as well - that they find it more comforting to know that God is in charge, that there's a reason behind everything, etc.
It can also be a fact that the need for a psychic balm often does drive what we believe. I have some italian friends that cope with the sorrow in their life by believing it was all written in the stars. I.e., its not there fault. It would have happened irregardless.
Yes God is who God is and the question is what should drive what we believe about God.
last couple of sentences are somewhat confusing for me. I am one who has been near paralyzed by angst over what might have been in the years directly following my undergraduate studies. So I am evidence that OVTheology can generate dangerous results. I don't believe it because it helps me cope with the suffering in the world. As you may have noticed I am quite pessimistic regarding the direction Christianity in the US is going and outspoken regarding my belief in fallibilism. My belief that we are fully capable of screwing up majorly as we have in the past is very much linked to the openness of my ontotheological belief system.
quote:
As far as Spinoza goes, my intent with this string was not to talk about the OV stuff. I wanted to discuss his thoughts about determinism - I also brought up the fact that I am comforted by some of his sayings, b/c he has some keen insight about regret that has helped me.
And I am sorry. I hope you can get a discussion centered on Spinoza going on this link.
quote:
Now my personal feelings, etc., are completely irrelevant to academic discussion. I know that. But that doesn't mean I or anyone else is precluded from saying what HAS been helpful, what has comforted, what IS a psychic balm, etc., for us. It doesn't make a proposition more true if i find it more comforting, but I haven't been asserting that.
Well our passions often do guide our use of reason. I think that is quite common in academic discussion. There are quite often hidden themes/disagreements beneath the seeming topics of debate.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/28/2003 11:52 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW - I'm sorry you've been almost paralyzed by angst over what might have been. But this is exactly the point- what good is it to ruminate over what might have been? There's absolutely NOTHING that can be done now about that. The only thing to do is move forward - and a psychic balm can be very helpful in helping you let go.
Here's a quote from him:
"All things depend on the power of God. In order that things should be different from what they are, God's will would necessarily have to be different. But God's will cannot be different (as we have just most clearly demonstrated) from God's perfection. Therefore neither can things be different. I confess that the theory which subjects all things to the will of an indifferent deity, and asserts that they are all dependent on his fiat, is less far from the truth than the theory of those, who maintain that God acts in all things with a view of promoting what is good. For these latter persons seem to set up something beyond God, which does not depend on God, but which God in acting looks to as an exemplar, or which he aims at as a definite goal. This is only another name for subjecting God to the dominion of destiny, an utter absurdity in respect to God, whom we have shown to be the first and only free cause of the essence of all things and also of their existence. " | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
DLW - I'm sorry you've been almost paralyzed by angst over what might have been. But this is exactly the point- what good is it to ruminate over what might have been? There's absolutely NOTHING that can be done now about that. The only thing to do is move forward - and a psychic balm can be very helpful in helping you let go.
Ah yes, but ultimately letting go should not be based on me believing in something that goes against another belief of mine, which is the reality of evil in this world and the goodness of God.
And, I was able to let go and put things to rest in my mind, for the most part.
quote:
Here's a quote from him:
"All things depend on the power of God. In order that things should be different from what they are, God's will would necessarily have to be different. But God's will cannot be different (as we have just most clearly demonstrated) from God's perfection. Therefore neither can things be different. I confess that the theory which subjects all things to the will of an indifferent deity, and asserts that they are all dependent on his fiat, is less far from the truth than the theory of those, who maintain that God acts in all things with a view of promoting what is good. For these latter persons seem to set up something beyond God, which does not depend on God, but which God in acting looks to as an exemplar, or which he aims at as a definite goal. This is only another name for subjecting God to the dominion of destiny, an utter absurdity in respect to God, whom we have shown to be the first and only free cause of the essence of all things and also of their existence. "
I'm sorry I get no such psychic balm from the above passage. I took the wrong pill and having chosen to believe in the reality of evil find such ponderings deeply disturbing.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 12:23 PM (GMT -6) | | | Well whatever comforts you, comforts you , right? I can't make something comfort you or vice versa. It's a matter of personal preference. But it is true that the "problem of evil" is not going to be resolved in our lifetime (never has, probably never will) - and yet evil does exist. So you have to be able to reconcile that with a loving God in your mind in order to have any sense of relief or purpose. A state of angst and anxiety is no way to live your life. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Well whatever comforts you, comforts you , right? I can't make something comfort you or vice versa. It's a matter of personal preference. But it is true that the "problem of evil" is not going to be resolved in our lifetime (never has, probably never will) - and yet evil does exist. So you have to be able to reconcile that with a loving God in your mind in order to have any sense of relief or purpose. A state of angst and anxiety is no way to live your life.
Oh, so God's relation to time and Creation are a matter of personal preference? Are you a relativist RD?
Give me angst if need be in the pursuit of truth, anyday.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
|
ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 12:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Don't put words in my mouth - i was extrapolating on what I posted earlier - that someone's "comfort" is irrelevant to the truth. But what comfort IS to a person IS a matter of personal choice.
I'm comforted by determinism, you're not. Neither one of us is wrong when it comes to what it is that comforts us. It's like saying I like chocolate, you like vanilla.
And, obviously, determinism or libertarianism - one is the truth. But we can't know that with 100% certainty now, can we? It's not provable - so I will respect your belief about the nature of reality even though i don't agree. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 12:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Don't put words in my mouth - i was extrapolating on what I posted earlier - that someone's "comfort" is irrelevant to the truth. But what comfort IS to a person IS a matter of personal choice.
I could take comfort in my having super-powers including my own invulnerability. However, that wouldn't be true. One shouldn't take comfort in fictions. And so we find ourselves back in matters of Truth that are above and beyond personal choice. We can't have free-will if all of history is predetermined since to have a free-will lets us render the undetermined determined. And that, combined with the reality of evil in this world, makes taking comfort in determinism, ultimately trusting a God who shouldn't be trusted for much.
quote:
I'm comforted by determinism, you're not. Neither one of us is wrong when it comes to what it is that comforts us. It's like saying I like chocolate, you like vanilla.
You may like Harlequin Romance Novels and I may like Horatio Algier Jr. Novels(These were from the 19th Century and told about some boy from the streets making it rich), but both genres are dangerously deceptive fictions. The point is that it isn't about what comforts/intrigues us but what is the truth.
quote:
And, obviously, determinism or libertarianism - one is the truth. But we can't know that with 100% certainty now, can we? It's not provable - so I will respect your belief about the nature of reality even though i don't agree.
Thankyou, but since when has the absence of certainty freed us to say that either complete determinism or complete libertarianism might be true or anything in-between.
A commitment to truth, means not accepting all possible explanations of the universe as equally valid. There still is room for disagreement with the in-between case.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 12:55 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with your last paragraph - other than that I"m not sure what you're saying.
It's like I said - one person may be comforted with a more "human-like" God who is deeply relational, to the point of respecting free choice so much, blah blah blah, where another person is comforted by a God who is in control, to the detriment of their own personal freedom.
Who's right? Who's wrong? | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I agree with your last paragraph - other than that I"m not sure what you're saying.
It's like I said - one person may be comforted with a more "human-like" God who is deeply relational, to the point of respecting free choice so much, blah blah blah, where another person is comforted by a God who is in control, to the detriment of their own personal freedom.
Who's right? Who's wrong?
Well if we agree that both are right some then OVTheism is right since God being in control wouldn't entail Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 1:10 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm saying whose feeling of being comforted is right and whose feeling of being comforted is wrong?
That is entirely different than whether a given viewpoint of God's nature is right or wrong. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | | And the part of my earlier response, that you apparently couldn't understand, is that one can conceivably find comfort in things that are not true, such as the fact one has the super-power of invulnerability(except to Kryptonite) or novels that abstract from the realities of how relations work or don't work or that romanticize a Rugged Individualism view of Capitalism that is utopic.
Ultimately, the search for the truth takes precedence over our preexisting, received ways of coping with angst and anxiety.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/28/2003 2:39 PM (GMT -6) | | I remember when I was first starting off volunteering as a union organizer in my fourth year in graduate school. I was quite logical and rationale in how I presented the idea of a union to other graduate students. But it didn't work and I ended up turning some people really off from the idea.
Later, a seasoned organizer explained to me that often times it is more important to address people's fears than to win a debate with them. I realized then that I wasn't listening carefully enough or trying to discern the mood of the organizee.
The point of the above story is that I think it is fair to say you have admitted in this link that you are a Calvinist because it provides you personally with comfort. My counter, as it stands, is that that is not a good reason to believe something and that one can find the ability to overcome angst with a belief in OVTheism.
Another personal story, I am currently writing on this board too much because I have writer's block/angst over a paper I am s'posed to resubmit for publication. I got a nasty referee letter about it this past May and am supposed to considerably rewrite it prior to resubmission. So if I do all this stuff, I can resubmit it, but what then it may still get rejected. All that has to happen is for me to not be generous enough in my summary of some particular paper whose author or author's friends are asked to be referees and then my paper will get rejected again and I may have to resubmit or not be given that opportunity. I have already had this paper rejected quite a few times. My major advisor was really good at getting papers published because he would thoroughly include all the past literature and play to the views of the editors and, of course, since he is a big-figure in his discipline, they are unlikely to reject his papers partially out of fear he might retaliate in some way.
So yes, there is angst. I still struggle with that. I struggle with whether I'm in the right profession.
But I will not let that deter me in what I believe, which is that whether I get over my insecurities about my shortcomings and my perfectionism/cynicism will impact my future one way or the other.
So if you all could maybe pray for me to get over my writer's block, I'd appreciate it.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
|
ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey DLW - first off, I have never said I was a Calvinist- in fact, I am not a Calvinist as far as subscribing to the whole shebang. And secondly I would NEVER say that I believe in one viewpoint b/c of the comfort it gives me! Absolutely not ! I have said, however, that if we're going down the road of talking about what IS comforting, to me, a determinist view of God is more comforting that a non-determinist one. And I've explained why. But that's not relevant to the truth of the matter, I "freely" admit that...
And, as long as we're talking about angst, I too have felt the angst of "why are we even on this planet" when the inevitable result is we all will die. And 100 years from now, with few exceptions, no one will even know that we existed. I've felt the angst of why is there so much suffering, human AND animal - b/c I hold a special place in my heart for animals- I believe they were created by God for a reason, and are held in high esteem by him, they are not "property" to be used as humans wish....and I have lost MANY nights of sleep over the rampant abuse of animals that is so prevalent in our society. So no, don't think that I have a "merry" "whatever happens happens" attitude! Far from it! But I have found that there is only so much a human can do to change reality. And what you cannot change, HAS to be accepted, or else your mental health is deeply affected.
I will pray for you , and I do feel for you, b/c I understand what you're feeling! :) | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 7/28/2003 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Here are a couple quotes that have moved me - you may think it silly, or wrong, or whatever, but, for what it's worth:
"Not the worst but the best of mankind suffer the most. The intensity with which suffering is felt may be considered an index of a man's depth. The more the intellect is developed and the soul refined, the more sensitive does one become to pain, not only the pains of the soul, but physical pains as well."
-I'm not sure which philosopher that was, I'll have to look it up again...
but, from Spinoza:
"Fear, envy, regret, anger - all the disturbances of the mind - have their source in the desire that things be other than they are no less than in the finitude of their object. But once man recognizes that things cannot be other than they are, disturbing passions will no longer agitate him." | | Back to Top | | |
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anewbeginning
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| Posted 7/29/2003 12:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"Fear, envy, regret, anger - all the disturbances of the mind - have their source in the desire that things be other than they are no less than in the finitude of their object. But once man recognizes that things cannot be other than they are, disturbing passions will no longer agitate him."
Spinoza left off hope,aspiration,altruism,desire and many other things that make life fullfilling. Don't you sense the fatalism of his words? | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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| Posted 7/29/2003 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Hey DLW - first off, I have never said I was a Calvinist- in fact, I am not a Calvinist as far as subscribing to the whole shebang. And secondly I would NEVER say that I believe in one viewpoint b/c of the comfort it gives me! Absolutely not ! I have said, however, that if we're going down the road of talking about what IS comforting, to me, a determinist view of God is more comforting that a non-determinist one. And I've explained why. But that's not relevant to the truth of the matter, I "freely" admit that...
Okay, so if the comfortness of a deterministic view of God, much less reality, is not why you believe in it, what is the reason?
quote:
And, as long as we're talking about angst, I too have felt the angst of "why are we even on this planet" when the inevitable result is we all will die. And 100 years from now, with few exceptions, no one will even know that we existed.
I don't know about you, but I've researched up about my ancestres and certainly know they existed.
quote:
I've felt the angst of why is there so much suffering, human AND animal - b/c I hold a special place in my heart for animals- I believe they were created by God for a reason, and are held in high esteem by him, they are not "property" to be used as humans wish....and I have lost MANY nights of sleep over the rampant abuse of animals that is so prevalent in our society. So no, don't think that I have a "merry" "whatever happens happens" attitude! Far from it! But I have found that there is only so much a human can do to change reality. And what you cannot change, HAS to be accepted, or else your mental health is deeply affected.
Yes, but there is a difference between instrumentally taking much of the sinfulness of the world as beyond our control and believing that it truly is already determined and not subject to change.
I am an economist and you can find both views among other economists. The first, proves liberating for pressing for some changes, while not others. The latter ultimately leads to a fatalism that can make us not take advantage of the opportunities we actually do have for making changes.
So, lacking evidence otherwise, I still hold to my prior contention that your belief in determinism is based on psychological reasons, your need for a psychic, emotional balm.
The problem is that too much balm anesthetizes us from our ability to act to take risks and so on.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
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