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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/2/2003 8:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | I know that for the Catholic Church position, as well as some other denominations, they teach that commiting suicide will automatically condemn a person to Hell, regardless of any confessions in the past. I'm curious where this logic comes from as the issue is not specifically mentioned in Scripture (Just because Saul and Judas committed suicide and went to the devil doesn't automatically mean everyone else who does so will too).
One theory is that since it is a "cardinal sin", and there is no opportunity for repentence, then that will cause someone to become fallen. I guess they can cite the verse that God will not forgive us unless we forgive others. If we then commit a crime against ourselves, we won't have time to forgive ourselves, and therefore won't be forgiven.
The main hole with this line of thinking (which largely supports the Purgatory argument as well) is that it says Christ's death, burial, and ressurection on the cross wasn't as "final" as some preach it. That there ARE things we can and cannot do which affect our Salvation. That accepting Christ is certainly a prerequisite for Salvation, but is either conditional or not sufficient alone. Again, don't want to get entirely into the "once saved, always saved" argument, but my point is that why is suicide any different in terms of being just sin than any other one would commit and have not the time for repentence. Watching a porn movie in a hotel room as it got bombed and you're instantly killed. Stealing something and getting shot while running away. A fatal DUI incident. Why is suicide in a category of it's own when the Bible doesn't seem to address it as such.
The other main argument I've heard is that those who commit suicide are saying in essence that they hate their lives and don't want any part of God anymore. That may be true in some instances, but probably is not the majority. With my limited understanding, there are a good number who commit suicide for other reasons. One is just to escape the pains of life and they see no other way out. Quite the contrary to running away from God, they try run to God and just feel that the life they've been living is shaming Him too much and rather not dishonor Him anymore. Others commit suicide as an act of trying to protect others from situations or themselves. The same shaming rationale except it's with other people. Those in East Asia for many years (and still now) adopt this mantra of putting honor and family name above life itself. Whatever one's reasons for suicide, I think it's rarely that they knowingly wish to go from one painful situation (life) to another (Hell).
I often wonder what God would say to a Believer who commited suicide. Once cynical thing a Christian might think is that God will show her everything she's "missed out" on in life if she only "toughed it out" a little longer. Like adding insult to injury. True, God may reveal what "might have been" (another fierce debate I know), but I think the emphasis will be mostly on love and forgiveness, and that rather than regret, a person will understand then that God was truly watching over them and apply that lesson towards eternity.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/3/2003 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | I don't think suicide is automatic hell. For one thing the vast majority of people who commit suicide are majorly depressed and chemically imbalanced and thus not thinking rationally. I feel very very sad when I hear of someone who commits suicide thinking of all of the pain they were in. I think God has mercy on that - it's no different than the other situations you listed, that if you don't have the time to repent before death you automatically go to hell - that just doesn't seem right at all. | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 7/3/2003 5:16 AM (GMT -6) | | RD
quote:
I don't think suicide is automatic hell. For one thing the vast majority of people who commit suicide are majorly depressed and chemically imbalanced and thus not thinking rationally. I feel very very sad when I hear of someone who commits suicide thinking of all of the pain they were in. I think God has mercy on that
Ron
I agree RD, they are not in their right minds, they are sick, likened to a cancer, it overwhelms them. Very sad indeed. I pray God would indicate these persons in our midst so with Christ's love, help them.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/3/2003 7:22 AM (GMT -6) | | If we take it as a given that one is only responsible for that which he chooses of his own free will (with free will being defined for our purposes here as "being of sound mind and free of compulsion"), then I think it follows that basically there are two possibilities which could exist with regard to why a person would choose suicide:
1. They have hardened their heart to the point of no return, and thus are merely speeding the judgement of God on their soul. (As perhaps was the case with King Saul or with Judas Iscariot).
or,
2. They are insane.
If #2, then it would not follow that the person in question was acting freely, and thence it would not follow that they were truly guilty.
I have no doubt that God takes everything pertinent into consideration when assessing our lives (or deaths).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/5/2003 6:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Can you just imagine the Christian who was so depressed that he killed himself and comes before God ...
God: "OOOOOooooh, you were doing so great there, Bob! I mean, you loved me with all your heart, served Me well, but ... well, your brain malfunctioned (and that medicine you were on didn't do to well either) ... sorry guy, but ... (sound of the gong in the back), can't let you in."
or ...
God: "Bible says, 'Forgive each other or you won't be forgiven.' You're an 'other' ... didn't forgive yourself ... (gong goes off) ... sorry!"
and finally ...
God: "You know, you got a little angry at me, at life, at yourself, at everything. Happens. Too bad you did so, however, when you killed yourself. (Gong!) Sorry! All those past years of service and love for me ... well, can't help ya, Bob."
Sheesh! These kinds of argument approaches to conclude sending someone to hell are pretty sad.
Scripturally now, nothing (that I know of) says that God cannot forgive His children's sin even after death, viz, killing one's self. Yes, it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment, but the judgment is not "Was there any sin in his life just before he died?", it's "Was he saved by the blood of the lamb?"
Our salvation isn't lost (if one was ever saved--take your pick of theology here) because of sin; it's lost because what sin ultimately produces: spiritual death. If spiritual death hasn't happened when one dies via suicide, then how can God send that person to hell?
But, I'm too tired to think about it much more this evening!
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 07/05/2003 11:14:42 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Sarah
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 5
| Posted 7/9/2003 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | A sound, sane person who committed suicide most likely:
*ignored the affect on other people
*thought only of himself or herself
*was very depressed
*felt hopeless
*despised himself or herself
and/or
*did not trust, love, and/or have enough faith in God
Questions I struggle to answer are: did the depressed Bob (assuming he was in the right mind) really love God with all his heart? Could he have? Even if he did, how could he of had faith in God and trusted in Him? If Bob would have been hit by a train or something and killed that day before he committed suicide, would he have been saved?
Galatians 2:20-21
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”
Romans 5:1-5
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Further train of thought: If Christ lived in Bob; he would then live by faith in Christ and hopefully even exult his tribulations. If Bob loved God with all his heart, he should especially be willing to live for Him. If living for Christ means living for each other, then why would he choose to die? Maybe Bob thought he was doing others harm and would continue to do so, but nonetheless, God helps people change and again he should have faith. An abrupt change: is it possible to love God and not accept His gift of eternal life (i.e. through suicide), if you believe you don’t deserve it anyway?
Do you think that a man in the right mind who commits suicide was or wasn’t saved to begin with?
Not sure what to think,
Sarah
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/9/2003 12:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Sarah,
You know, those Scriptures you quoted are what's to be in an ideal situation. I personally don't think Paul ever thought much about suicide, if at all, no matter what he went through because he was such a driven person from start--a Choleric, as they're called in some circles. But a meloncholy personality is so much more prone to condemn himself, find fault with himself and end up in much more depression than most folk (on average). There's been great, great Christians through the years who have sunk to remarkable depths of depression. Are they not saved? Do they not have the Spirit of Christ in them?
What you are thinking of is our ideal desire, what should be, but what often isn't. Heavens knows, we all want what you've quoted from Scripture, but if we've yet arrived, we are not unsaved, are we? It's not a saved/unsaved issue; it's a very human/life issue, and for some, it's so bad that they can't find they're way out, so they commit suicide.
In the end, it can only be God who can decide based upon the person's heart. We are not, however, given enough evidence in Scripture that it is clear cut: all suicides are hell bound. That's simply not taught in Scritpure.
Hope that helps,
Starkman
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Sarah
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 5
| Posted 7/9/2003 12:24 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/10/2003 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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