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|  Jewgrass Registered Member
 Date Joined Sep 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 8/10/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | I am looking for information about the various views of communion. I really enjoy books like Four Different Views on ... and Across the Spectrum, but because transubstantiation is not advocated by Protestant groups, I have been unable to find a good, honest dialogue about the various views. I personally don't think one's beliefs about such a doctrine have any eternal implications, so I am not interested in literature written primarily as an attack on Catholicism. Any ideas?
Thanks, Greg | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 8/10/2003 10:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Greg.
This LINK I'll offer might REALLY help. Both the tradition of John Calvin (I attend a Dutch Reformed church) and the RCC (and Lutheran, Anglican, etc.) understand communion to be the "real presence" of Christ in-the-eating. The LINK can provide lots of details, straight from the horses mouth--which is better than second hand.
I say "in-the-eating" because that way I don't get into any of the various labored theories as to "how." Luther has one view (Consubstantiation and Ubiquity--"over, under..."), the RCC's Council of Trent another ("Transubstantiation").
Here is John Calvin's rehash of various views. www.smartlink.net/~douglas/calvin/bk4ch17.html (The Orthodox--as in Cyril of Jerusalem www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-28.htm#TopOfPage --was too simple for him to consider as a view. But it is right!)
The history of all this gymnastics is also interesting. A good place to begin is Berengarius of Tours. Simply put, Berengarius said from within the RCC that Communion was NOT real but was symbolic. The RCC overreacted by taking the hook and continuing a choice between the two (as if with my wedding ring it can't both be symbolic AND a real part of the marriage too). Trent says that Communion is real but not symbolic. The original view had been to recognize what can be regarded as realistic symbolism or symbolic realism (A. Schmemman). That's what you will find in the Greek Fathers, and the Orthodox Church. It was never meant to be difficult. But the Medieval mind liked complexity.
Calvin reinvested Reformed Christianity with renewed emphasis on the "Epiclesis": the prayer for the Holy Spirit to make the bread and wine be for us the Body and the Blood of the Holy Spirit. And the meaning of it is best seen in Orthodox liturgies, where instead of particular words (as som ein the RCC hold--but surely not all) or a particular moment, but the WHOLE of the service is "eucharistic."
Think of Communion THIS WAY. God calls us to come together before him as a Body, to express love for one another, and to offer Him our gifts--which are nothing more and nothing less than the whole life and whole world that he gave us. We bring our food and our drink freely with gratitude and generousity, and divide it with those less fortunate who are in need. And some of that same bread and wine is brought to the altar in the service and offered to God for His blessing. The we ASK God for two things: First that He send His Holy Spirit; and second, that The Spirit make us to be the Body.
quote: A Christian Reformed Church "consecration" liturgy
Prayer of Consecration [may be offered by all] Father, we give you thanks for your Son, Jesus Christ, for his willing obedience and suffering during his life on earth, and especially for his giving up of his body and blood on the cross. Give us assurance that our sins are pardoned through his blood. Let your perfect love drive out fear; make us perfect in your love. Fill our minds with your peace and turn our eyes to heaven, where Christ is at your right hand interceding for us. Enable us to offer up ourselves in service to Christ and to all your children. Let no trouble or sorrow distract us from this loving service, and unite us with each other through your Spirit so that we may continue in the living hope of our Savior's coming in glory. Hear us now through our Lord Jesus, who taught us to pray, saying, "Our Father . . . ." (Adapted from Psalter Hymnal, p. 980)
http://www.crcna.org/crrs/crrs_synod_lit_supper94.htm
quote: An Eastern Orthodox liturgy, attributed to St. Basil
And as for us all, partakers of the one Bread and of the Cup, do thou unite to one another unto communion of the one Holy Spirit, and make none of us to partake of the holy Body and Blood of thy Christ unto judgment or unto condemnation, but that we may find mercy and grace with all the Saints
http://www.sspeterpaul.org/Sbgli.htm
Communion is "dialogical." We offer to God and God offers to us. Its two way.
Its the GIVING that matters, and that is to be payed attention to. Not the medium -- or attempts to fit the communion statically into the medium. (I suppose its more of a river than an icecube.)
Here's from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:
quote: Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all.
While this is being said, the deacon puts aside the fan, and crossing his arms, elevates the holy diskos and the holy chalice, and makes a devout reverence. Choir: We hymn thee, we bless thee, we give thanks unto thee, O Lord, and we pray unto thee, O our God.
The priest prays: Again we offer unto thee this rational and bloodless worship, and we call upon thee and pray thee, and supplicate thee: send down thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.
. . .
May the Lord God remember thee in His kingdom always, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
The priest prays: That to those who shall partake thereof they may be unto cleansing of soul, unto forgiveness of sins, unto communion of thy Holy Spirit, unto fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven, unto boldness toward thee, not unto judgment nor unto condemnation.
http://yourpage.blazenet.net/chrysostom/liturgy.html or http://www.sspeterpaul.org/sjcli.html
Interestingly, the Mass at the Franciscan School I teach at doesn't seem very far different from either the Reformed of the Orthodox liturgies. But that is a good thing. Right?
I recommend, For the Life of the World. by Fr. Alexander Schmemman.
www.christianity-books.com/For_the_Life_of_the_World_Sacraments_and_Orthodoxy_0913836087.html
With Cyril of Jerusalem we can say:
quote: 9. Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ24 ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man's heart, to make his face to shine with oil25 , "strengthen thou thine heart," by partaking thereof as spiritual, and "make the face of thy soul to shine." And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, mayest thou reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord26 , and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:-To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-28.htm#TopOfPage
And, what's more, with respect to "symbolic realism" or "realistic symbolism", I THINK THAT YOU CAN GRASP THESE BELOW!!!!
quote: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-29.htm#TopOfPage
3. Then the Deacon cries aloud, "Receive ye one another; and let us kiss one another8 ." Think not that this kiss is of the same character with those given in public by common friends. It is not such: but this kiss blends souls one with another, and courts entire forgiveness for them. The kiss therefore is the sign that our souls are mingled together, and banish all remembrance of wrongs. For this cause Christ said, If thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against time, leave there thy gift upon the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift9 . The kiss therefore is reconciliation, and for this reason holy: as the blessed Paul somewhere cried, saying, Greet ye one another with a holy kiss10 ; and Peter, with a kiss of charity11 .
4. After this the Priest cries aloud, "Lift up your hearts12 ." For truly ought we in that most awful hour to have our heart on high with God, and not below, thinking of earth and earthly things. In effect therefore the Priest bids all in that hour to dismiss all cares of this life, or household anxieties, and to have their heart in heaven with the merciful God. Then ye answer, "We lift them up unto the Lord:" assenting to it, by your avowal. But let no one come here, who could say with his mouth, "We lift up our hearts unto the Lord," but in his thoughts have his mind concerned with the cares of this life At all times, rather, God should be in our memory but if this is impossible by reason of human infirmity, in that hour above all this should be our earnest endeavour.
5. Then the Priest says, "Let us give thanks unto the Lord." For verily we are bound to give thanks, that He called us, unworthy as we were, to so great grace; that He reconciled us when we were His foes; that He vouch-safed to us the Spirit of adoption. Then ye say, "It is meet and right:" for in giving thanks we do a meet thing and a right; but He did not right, but more than right, in doing us good, and counting us meet for such great benefits.
19. After this the Priest says, "Holy things to holy men." Holy are the gifts presented, having received the visitation of the Holy Ghost; holy are ye also, having been deemed worthy of the Holy Ghost; the holy things therefore correspond to the holy persons42 . Then ye say, "One is Holy, One is the Lord, Jesus Christ43 ." For One is truly holy, by nature holy; we too are holy, but not by nature, only by participation, and discipline, and prayer.
20. After this ye hear the chanter inviting you with a sacred melody to the communion of the Holy Mysteries, and saying, O taste and see that the Lord is good44 . Trust not the judgment to thy bodily palate45 no, but to faith unfaltering; for they who taste are bidden to taste, not bread and wine, but the anti-typical46 Body and Blood of Christ.
(John Calvin's emphasis was on this "lifted up to the Lord" aspect.)
But get this, in plain speach almost borrowed from Cyril: The Bread and the Cup ARE THE PARTICIPATION IN CHRIST'S BODY AND BLOOD. No theory then accompanies that declaration. They are the "participation in" the salvation He gives.
I think that lets us leave Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation by the wayside.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
  |  fencesitter Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2003 Total Posts : 19 | Posted 8/10/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6) |   | | S'cuse my asking... but what's "transubstantiation?" | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 8/12/2003 7:07 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Originally posted by MephEternal
I'm really feelin' this. More than that, I just believe this is a true representation of what Communion is supposed to be. Sweet stuff, man.

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 |  Springs Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 636 | Posted 8/12/2003 5:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | Fencesitter, Transubstantiation is the belief that the bread and wine in the communion service turn into the actual body and blood of Christ.
quote: Originally posted by PotOnWheel
]
Calvin reinvested Reformed Christianity with renewed emphasis on the "Epiclesis": the prayer for the Holy Spirit to make the bread and wine be for us the Body and the Blood of the Holy Spirit.
9. Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ24
... you with a sacred melody to the communion of the Holy Mysteries, and saying, O taste and see that the Lord is good44 . Trust not the judgment to thy bodily palate45 no, but to faith unfaltering; for they who taste are bidden to taste, not bread and wine, but the anti-typical46 Body and Blood of Christ.
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 8/14/2003 7:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 10/11/2003 2:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Originally posted by MephEternal
POW:
quote: Think of Communion THIS WAY. God calls us to come together before him as a Body, to express love for one another, and to offer Him our gifts--which are nothing more and nothing less than the whole life and whole world that he gave us. We bring our food and our drink freely with gratitude and generousity, and divide it with those less fortunate who are in need. And some of that same bread and wine is brought to the altar in the service and offered to God for His blessing. The we ASK God for two things: First that He send His Holy Spirit; and second, that The Spirit make us to be the Body.
I'm really feelin' this. More than that, I just believe this is a true representation of what Communion is supposed to be. Sweet stuff, man.

THOUGHT I'D ADD THIS, FOUND ON A COPTIC SITE:
quote:
PART I
THE OFFERTORY
Since the early church times, the faithful have used to come to the church bearing their offerings. The bread and wine are included in these offerings, in addition to other oblations like oil, cheese, olives, etc
Offering bread and wine is not only a physical necessity for the Eucharist, but it has a spiritual meaning. As The Lord Jesus offered himself a sacrifice of love to God the Father on our behalf, we ought to offer our selves totally, through our unity with him, as His own body.
By the Offertory, the Church declares in a practical way her acceptance to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, as well as her willingness to offer her life as a sacrifice of love for Him. Our life together with our labor, joys, sorrows, hopes, ambitions. Hardships, etc…are represented , by offering the bread and wine.
The essence of our sacrifices is not our money or possessions, but offering ourselves and our lives in Jesus Christ. The Priest says, in the fraction prayer of the Easter; "He, Christ, raised His saints on high with Him; and offered them as an oblation to His Father". For this reason, the Church does not accept the oblations of the unjust, the adulteress, the avaricious and the unbelievers, if they still not repenting.
1. The Preparation
As we start the journey of the liturgy and the Eucharist, The Church realizes that this is a unique journey. It is a departure from the earthly concerns to that of the heaven.
How dreadful are these moments, for the Church is moved toward the throne of God, in front of Him, in accompany with the Cherubim, the Seraphim and all the choirs of the heavenly hosts, offering to the Father the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son by His Holy Spirit. So, we have to be prepared well for this service.
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