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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > MephEternal Talks To Himself About Annihilationism | Forum Quick Jump
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/10/2003 5:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | This dialogue takes place after MephEternal’s 5:36 pm 08/10/2003 post to Doc on the “God’s love: Part Deux” thread. Taped recording in DP’s head…
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Sir Mephistopheles: Hold the heck up. What are you doing?
Meph: What chu mean, killa?
Sir Mephistopheles : Why are you granting some credence to this whole annihilation thing? Didn’t you not too long ago demonstrate how no one could with logical consistency be an annilationist, if they held to to the “dignity” idea Doc went on and on about?
Meph: Yes, I did.
Sir Mephistopheles : So you backin’ down from that now?
Meph: Hell, no, player. You oughta know me better than that! But I am recognizing that some serious nuancing needs to take place…
Sir Mephistopheles (interjecting quickly): Oh, and don’t forget how you basically said that annihilationism would be admitting the functional TRIUMPH of death over reality. “Suicide is painless”, remember?
Meph: Sheesh, dawg. I’m feelin’ you, I’m feeling you. I did say all of that. But I really think that I have something that really puts some this into perspective…
Sir Mephistopheles (being a rude a$$ again!): Negro, puhleeeze. You straight sewed that UP. And you’re selling out on that??
Meph (using some real restraint): Look, man. Gimme a sec without interruptin’ me and I’ll explain!
Sir Mephistopheles : Aiight. Whatever. (folds arms with mad attitude)
Meph: Cool. Ok. One of the things that I realize now is that my argument with Doc had a certain assumption about the constitution of sentient creatures. I rightly thought that all sentient beings had to be in some way AUTONOMOUS from God. Otherwise, all would collapse into one big pantheism with no genuine ontological distinction. However, I thought that this autonomy was such that the sentient creatures were TOTALLY, COMPLETELY autonomous from God. Like they had their own sustance that was initiated by, but SEPARATE FROM God.
Sir Mephistopheles : Ok. So you figured that sentient creatures were truly their OWN entities on all metaphysical levels?
Meph: Yeah, pretty much.
Sir Mephistopheles : Well, what’s the problem with that? It makes sense.
Meph: Yes, and that’s how the issue came up with annihilationism. If it was truly the case that we were CREATED to be eternal beings, then there would be no NATURAL sense in which we could cease to exist after our creation. The dignity argument states that all self-determined, self-solidified choices would endure AS LONG AS THE BEINGS that make them NATURALLY exist. We did the math. This entailed either conscious eternity with God or without God. Annihilationism would violate this principle because it wouldn’t be natural.
Sir Mephistopheles: Say what?
Meph: Think about it, homie. Annihilationism would be the EXTINGUISHING of a life from the outside. This would not be like taking someone who is utterly depended on life support off of that life support. This would be like putting a cap in someone’s brain that would have lived otherwise. It wouldn’t be allowing the natural ramifications to cause the cessation of existence.
Sir Mephistopheles: I got all this, man. That’s why I said what I said. There’s NO WAY outta this. To say that dignity idea applies, and to say that we really ARE separate from God, it all follows.
Meph: Well, no quite.
Sir Mephistopheles: Aw, here YOU go. Now what?
Meph: Ok. Go back to the whole love discussion that we’ve been having.
Sir Mephistopheles : You mean the one where some people are actually saying that God don’t love Satan and that God can hate people?
Meph: Yeah.
Sir Mephistopheles: Man, that’s some trippy &%$#. I bet some friggin atheists would have a field day with that simple nonsense. Way to say that “God is love” Wack stuff, son! Haters, all.
Meph: Fo sho, black. (Daps Sir Mephistopheles) Anyways…I’ve been talking about God’s continual sustaining grace to us as being seen as God being loving to each sentient being IN their distinctness.
Sir Mephistopheles: Yeah, I’m feelin’ that.
Meph: It gets better, Sir Mephistopheles. What if we were to really take the thought all the way out? That our lives REALLY aren’t fully our own? Meaning that without God to sustain us, we would not exist. In other words, our natural existences are such that God is the main factor that determines whether or not we persist into eternal life.
Sir Mephistopheles : Fill this thought out…
Meph: Ok. I’ll state it like this: Our natural state of existence is one of SYMBIOSIS based upon the life of God. Even though we are dissimiliar enough from God to be considered autonomous beings, we are necessarily connected with the life of God in such a way that our lives CANNOT be sustained without God.
Sir Mephistopheles (eyes wide): Oh, snap! So, I’m getting this! Lemme jack the analogy for a sec. God is like the LIFE SUPPORT that we are plugged into and totally dependent upon!
Meph: HAYELL, yeah! And what would happen if someone were to “pull” the plug on us? We would cease to exist…NATURALLY!
Sir Mephistopheles (looking a bit impressed): So, this would enable someone who held to the dignity idea to actually BE an annihilationist! Sure a person can endure their choices for the rest of natural existences…which are CONDITIONED by whether or not they are still sustained by God ala life support!
Meph: Yep.
Sir Mephistopheles : WHOOOO. Cool stuff, son. (Thinks a bit) AHA. But there’s still a catch, dawg. Even with this, you’d have to admit that DEATH, the ENEMY, would truly be triumphant. It would be by God taking people off of life support, virtually HANDING them to non-existence. Even though some would argue that this is better than eternal punishment, annihilationism would still end up making death a GOOD thing, just like you said. Death would be the hero, in a sense.
Meph: Yeah, I did say that. But now, I see I was incomplete in my thinking. Saying that cessation of personal existence is the LEAST of the potential evils available as options of dealing with an intractable problem is NOT the same thing as saying that death is a good thing or “hero” in any sense.
Sir Mephistopheles : Hmmm…so you are saying that God putting someone…
(Meph looks at Sir Mephistopheles with raised eyebrow
Sir Mephistopheles: Oh, yeah, that’s right. So are you saying God pulling the plug on us… (Meph nodding assent)…would be the least of potential evil outcomes available to God?
Meph: Dude, this ain’t that hard to imagine. Unless you really want to say that people that have to make the choice between allowing their own comatose loved ones to stay on life support, utterly dependent, …and pulling the plug…is a GOOD thing. You and I know it’s NOT a good thing, but the best decision available given the circumstances.
Sir Mephistopheles : I’m with that. Yeah…
Meph: And think about it. How would death really be triumphant ANYWAY? After the annihilation, DEATH ITSELF, the cessation of personal existence, will cease to exist! Sure, death had its reign…but this had been true ever since the first sin. Yes, death will have had its lasting effects, in that some people would be FOREVER gone. But, it would have have the same lasting effects in having people eternally separated from God, the source of life. Death would have been working its insidious ways in those people’s lives for eternity.
But with annihilationism, a big fat PERIOD is put on death’s sentence. Death won some crucial battles, but God wins the war. So wherein is the triumph of death?
Sir Mephistopheles : Hmm…I see what you are saying. Death was going to have lasting effects either way, whether by complete cessation of existence…or the zombie state of eternal conscious punishment. But only in annihilation, does Death NOT triumph.
Meph: True dat.
Sir Mephistopheles: Gotcha. What about universalism?
Meph: What about it? Remember, the only way that universalism could really be posited would be by somehow altering Doc’s worldview significantly. Either by removing all sense of probationary periods combined with the optimism that God would eventually win everyone over in time. Or by PRESERVING the probationary period and violating the “dignity” argument. If you WANTED to do that, I guess you could. But what I’m trying to show you is that with my description of love, it is possible for someone LIKE DOC to truly hold to the dignity argument and the rest of his worldview, and be a CONSISTENT annihilationist.
Sir Mephistopheles : Dang, man. I gotta give it to ya. I thought that you were just plain sellin’ out at first. But it seems like you have this figured out. So where do we stand?
Meph: What do you mean?
Sir Mephistopheles : Well, all you’ve said that it’s POSSIBLE to be an annihilationist. So are you? Are you..are WE…annihilationist, universalist, or eternal conscious punishment?
Meph: Well, you know, I’ve been reading about the Unitarian Universalists a lot…and I’d have to say that I…
(Meph looks around weirdly)
Meph: Hey, do you hear that?
Sir Mephistopheles : Hear what? (looking at Meph)
Meph: That whirring noise. THERE it is again. Hear that?
Sir Mephistopheles : Yeah, I heard it that time.
(looks around and finds the recorder)
Oh, #&@*, son! Mutha$&@&%#@ been snoopin’ in listenin’ to us!
Meph: Dammit! Friggin evangelicals always trying to get something on me! Squash that thing, man. Break that! Hopefully, they didn’t get too much of this on tape. I can’t believe… CRASH!
(End of transmission)
"Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world."
--R. D. Lang | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/10/2003 7:33 PM (GMT -6) | | A person cannot talk to himself when posting it for the world to see.  | | Back to Top | | |
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