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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/12/2003 5:59 PM (GMT -6) |   | I'm not voting, since I do not have a strong opinion, but funnily enough, I was confirmed a Lutheran. SO I looked in the Luther's Small Catechism to see if there was anything about this. THere was nothing about God being love, in fact, the closest thing I could find relevant to the discussion was the following:
"What does God say about all these commandments? He says, "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."
What does this mean?
God threatens to punish all who transgress these commandments. Therefore we should fear his anger and not disobey what he commands."
Here we go again - with God saying that he shows love to those who love him and keep his commandments.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/13/2003 1:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I'm not voting, since I do not have a strong opinion, but funnily enough, I was confirmed a Lutheran. SO I looked in the Luther's Small Catechism to see if there was anything about this. THere was nothing about God being love, in fact, the closest thing I could find ...
Let me contribute along the same line.
First, the Orthodox liturgies ubiquitously contain phrases like these:
quote:
For thou art a good God who lovest man, and unto thee do we send up glory, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
. . .
Pardon every sin committed by them in word or deed or thought, for thou art a good God and Lover of man, for there is no man that liveth and sinneth not, for thou only art without sin and thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy word is truth.
. . .
Second, the Heidelberg Catechism (Reformed) has these lines:
quote:
A 28. We can be patient when things go against us, thankful when things go well, and for the future we can have good confidence in our faithful God and Father that nothing will separate us from his love. All creatures are so completely in his hand that without his will they can neither move nor be moved.
A 92. God spoke all these words: ... You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
With the Catechisms it sould be noted that they are following a topical outline with leading questions. A question like "what does the fifth commandment teach us?" can only cover just so much territory.
But, even though the Reformed tend to make too much of election (or too little in the right way) the ussage in the Heidelberg might temper what we expect to see. And that temper is this: God LOVES and HATES, and it is we who have to learn what the ussage of those terms is. They don't have to be understood as contradictory--or so I think.
Judgement does not have to lack love; it can be corrective. And Punishment can be self-inflicted; even hell.
I think that if you get a Lutheran, a Reformed and a "unconditional love" person in a room, and they talk long enough, they will sort it out.
(But, then, that is what we are doing here...)
"Time is the freedom to love."
(from Ware's "The Inner Kingdom")
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 8/13/2003 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I'm not voting, since I do not have a strong opinion, but funnily enough, I was confirmed a Lutheran. SO I looked in the Luther's Small Catechism to see if there was anything about this. THere was nothing about God being love, in fact, the closest thing I could find relevant to the discussion was the following:
"What does God say about all these commandments? He says, "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."
What does this mean?
God threatens to punish all who transgress these commandments. Therefore we should fear his anger and not disobey what he commands."
Here we go again - with God saying that he shows love to those who love him and keep his commandments.
ReasonableDoubt, thanks for bringing the Small Catechism into the conversation. I was not raised Lutheran, but I took a course at a Lutheran Seminary where one of the requirements was memorizing the Catechism. Even though I initially resented the assignment, the process of memorizing the Catechism gave me a whole new appreciation of the Commandments, Apostles’ Creed, Lord’s Prayer, and Sacraments.
Regarding Luther’s explanation of Exod. 34:6–7 (cf. Num. 14:18; Neh. 9:17; Ps. 86:15; 103:8, 17; 145:8; Jer. 32:18–19; Joel 2:13; Jon. 4:2; Nah. 1:3a):
1) The ethical use of the law is to preserve social order—the good of the whole. Consequences (i.e. punishment) for breaking the law by lying, killing, stealing, dishonoring, adultery, etc. are ethically justified, because breaking the law hurts people, at least potentially. We know from experience that the consequences of this hurt endure and extend beyond the individuals directly involved to friends, children, extended families, and even strangers.
2) Luther also believed in a theological use of the law. The theological use is to help us understand our own failure to keep the law perfectly, and thus, our need for grace. The law was meant to “drive us to Christ” to receive forgiveness rather than the punishment prescribed by the law—which is ultimately death.
3) Both the ethical and theological uses of the law meant that rather than backing away from language of consequences for disobedience, Luther intensified it. There is precidence for such intensification in Jesus’ own teachings. The point was not to impose an even more rigorous legalism, but rather to bring people to a position of honesty and humility before God—to resort to God’s grace rather than our own righteousness, and to receive forgiveness from Jesus. And note, however much God’s anger toward those who transgress the law is emphasized, God’s steadfast love always outruns it a thousand-fold.
Conclusion: Though Luther’s Small Catechism does not deal explicitly with God’s unconditional love, the theme of grace—unmerited favor—pervades his explanation of the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer. From creation to redemption to sanctification, God is clearly the initiator. Examples:
1) The explanation to the first article says, “I believe that God has created me and all that exists. He has give me and still preserves my body and soul with all their powers…All this he does out of fatherly and divine goodness and mercy…” God’s acts of creating and sustaining are not predicated on whether or not we deserve it, but rather out of God’s own nature.
2) Here is how the Catechism describes Jesus Christ’s act of redemption: “At great cost he has saved and redeemed me, a lost and condemned person…not with silver or gold, but with his holy and precious blood and his innocent suffering and death.” This loving act is not conditioned in any way by the state of our characters. Christ paid this price for us while we were lost and condemned.
Conclusion: Once again, Luther’s Small Catechism reaffirms that there is nothing about our characters that conditions the love God has already freely offered to us in creation and redemption. There is nothing about God’s character that leads him to selectively withdraw these gifts from some people, and apply them to others. No matter how wicked your character becomes, it cannot undo what Christ did on the cross for you.
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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