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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Feelings vs. actions | Forum Quick Jump
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/12/2003 4:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | OK, I'm starting a new thread here about this - the question has arisen in my mind about what really is required of us by God. It seems to be Greg Boyd's position that love is chosen, and that entails a relationship (interaction with both parties) between a person and God, in order to be legitimate.
My question has been, what exactly is that love? It seems amorphous to me. If we define it as action - ie, actively loving your neighbor by respecting them by being civilized, being kind, inviting them to church, praying for them, and generally helping them out - is that it?
Or is it a feeling, emotion, belief, caring, etc? My argument is, if it is the latter, it is not possible to "choose" that. It either exists or it doesn/t. You either like someone or you don't. The action part can be done regardless of how you feel - but there's not much you can do to change your feelings.
If indeed, the feeling and emotion are not really required, but only "love in action" is, then my response is - what exactly is required of us? If the goal is obedience to God's commands (which entail loving your neighbor, loving your enemies, etc. as actions rather than emotions), well then it seems a mindless automaton (robot) can do those things as well as any of us could. If God just wants obedience to his commands, why does he care that we've "chosen" to obey? The end goal- the ultimate end, so to speak, is obedience.
So to me, this sets up the dichotomy of "choice" as an end in itself, or "obedience." Which one does God desire more? It seems to me that obedience is what he desires more. If indeed choice were the ultimate value, then God could not very well punish someone for choosing to reject Him, since the choice in and of itself is what he values. If he only values a choice to obey, then obviously obedience is more important, and so what does it matter why someone is obeying? Whether it's through love and gratitude, fear, obligation, etc., seems to be irrelevant, as long as obedience entails. And then it comes down to the action - being valued - and the belief or emotion behind the action is not relevant. So someone could do the action and yet be of a different religion, or no religion, for that matter.
What are your thoughts? Is it the action, or is it the belief and feeling, that are required? Or am I totally off the wall ( that is VERY possible..:) ) | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/12/2003 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | | For the most part, I agree with your pithy response, but think about this. The exact same action of loving one's neighbor, done by someone who has a genuine love for Christ, and someone who is a Jew, for example. So if the bottom line is that obedience by love as action is required, it shouldn't matter what the subjective belief of the person is. If it does, then merely the belief is what matters, and not the action. See what I'm driving at? It seems incongruous. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/12/2003 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
For the most part, I agree with your pithy response, but think about this. The exact same action of loving one's neighbor, done by someone who has a genuine love for Christ, and someone who is a Jew, for example. So if the bottom line is that obedience by love as action is required, it shouldn't matter what the subjective belief of the person is. If it does, then merely the belief is what matters, and not the action. See what I'm driving at? It seems incongruous.
I see no reason to think that a Jew couldn't act out of a truly benevolent, godly motivation. There were several in the Bible who did so.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/12/2003 6:02 PM (GMT -6) | | | Are you saying then, that an observant Jew is doing what is right in God's eyes, and whether or not he believes in Jesus as the Messiah doesn't matter? | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/12/2003 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | | | OK, to get this clear, your position then is that the action is not relevant if someone's mind's belief is that Jesus is not the messiah? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/12/2003 7:07 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
OK, to get this clear, your position then is that the action is not relevant if someone's mind's belief is that Jesus is not the messiah?
No, that would not be my position. I am sorry you mistook me as implying that.
The morality of an action is determined by one's motive for acting.
A person may or may not believe in Jesus as the Messiah for any number of reasons, without necessarily rejecting Him with willful, conscious knowledge.
For instance, I happen to believe based on my understanding of Scripture in an age of accountability whereby all babies are by definition innocent, as are most mentally retarded individuals and those otherwise whose mentality is that of a small child. In other words, I don't expect my six-month-old daughter to even understand the gospel yet, let alone be responsible for accepting or rejecting it.
Likewise, those who have never heard are judged by God according to the law of their conscience (Romans 2) and the law of general revelation by means of the created order (Romans 1). They are not held responsible for that which they could in no wise have knowledge of (the gospel).
As for those of Jewish faith, there are many, many complicating factors today, not the least of which is the absolutely unChristian and ungodly treatment that Jews have received at the hands of so-called Christians down through the centuries. I am very hesitant to say that they are by definition without grace whatsoever, and would rather simply leave their final judgment in the hands of God, where it belongs. The sermons to Gentiles in the Book of Acts lead me to believe that those who truly hunger and thirst after righteousness shall indeed be filled (as was Cornelius' household, for example, and the few who heeded Paul's message on Mars' Hill).
I think we've all known enough professing Christians who didn't live what they said they believed to know that just being able nod "uh-huh" to an evangelical statement of faith is simply not a good gauge of who is and who isn't truly a true follower of Christ. God will be the Final Judge, and the only One whose opinion really matters then.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/12/2003 7:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | Yes, you're right, God is the ultimate judge...and if what you say is true for your own life, I think it's great...but I'm sure you know as well as I do that the Christian evangelical position is that, barring something extraordinary such as mental retardation, a young child, a heathen in a country that has never had any evangelization, etc, no one is saved apart from a mental belief in Christ. And not only that, but the correct doctrine...I know people who think that Mother Teresa is in hell now b/c she was a Catholic, and that no practicing Catholic is really a Christian (yes, believe it or not...) I do agree with you that only God can judge what is a person's motivation, what is a person's heart. But this just supports my point of view that God takes into consideration all of these different causes on a person's belief - so that it's not just merely the "belief" that matters. No one is on an equal playing field. God takes that into consideration when judging someone who grew up a Jew, through no choice of their own- someone who sincerely loves God, and who also sincerely does not Believe that Jesus was God- mostly because of their upbringing in the Jewish faith... is that person judged in the same manner as someone who was born into a christian home? I don't know - only God does. | | Back to Top | | |
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