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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > John Calvin's bodycount | Forum Quick Jump
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/21/2003 10:52 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/21/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | "NURSE! Call me a DOCTOR!"
"OK, you're a doctor."
Surely you don't mean that?
Yes I do, and quit calling me surely!
Once I was a waiter at a Denny's (Ah, yes. Now I know what's wrong with me!). Anway, this drunk come staggering in at "Bar Rush." This fellow worker looks over at me kind of distraught and says, "Keith, this guy would like you to call him a cab." So I walked over to the guy, came up to him slowly, looked him straight in the eye and said, "Okay, you're a cab." The whole house just busted out laughing. Even funnier is about 10 minutes later the drunk is still staring me down. He finally pipes up and says, "One thing's for sure: I ain't no cab." More howling!
For, "Now take my wife ... please!"
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 8/21/2003 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
When I asked for any definitions, you got snippy
I didn't mean to come across to you the way GWB came across to Al Gore on election night, but I did try to make clear that my definitions of Roger Olson's terms are completely irrelevant to my intended question. Let me see if I can make one last stab at clarifying the question by rephrasing it as a Gedankenexperiment.
You're sitting in the audience at a religious symposium. From 1:00 to 1:30, Roger Olson gives the talk on Arminianism that can be heard at www.byubroadcasting.org/salvationinchrist/real/episode113.ram. As is often the case at these symposia, and as was the case for this specific talk, there is practically no time for questions. At 1:30 at the end of Olson's talk, (if you are not emulating the impassible God of classical theism  ) you are probably feeling some emotions. In particular, being an Open Theist, you are experiencing an emotional reaction to the words Olson used to describe Open Theism. Here's the question: Would you characterize that emotion as most likely one of satisfaction or one of dissatisfaction?
Note that it doesn't appear to make sense for your answer to this question to be: "It depends on what Olson means by those words." What Olson means by those words is not one of the inputs for your emotional state at 1:30, except as that meaning had been conveyed to your mind prior to 1:30 by Olson's talk, by your previous reading of Olson's books, and by your familiarity with the English language. Meaningful answers might include:
- Satisfaction. The words he used weren't that much different from those used by Pinnock, Rice, and other Open Theists.
- Dissatisfaction. I dislike every talk in which the speaker fails to define every word he uses. Therefore, I dislike every talk, including this one.
- Dissatisfaction. Of course a speaker doesn't have to define every term he uses, but he shouldn't use weighty words like "limited", "absolute", or "foreknowledge" without carefully defining them in detail in his talk. I don't care that this was a 30-minute talk and Olson had a lot of ground to cover. It was irresponsible of him to use those words in a way that would be subject to dangerous misinterpretation.
- Neither satisfaction nor dissatisfaction. My blood would have left my brain to digest my lunch, and I would therefore be asleep.
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/21/2003 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Chris,
I don’t know about Tigress, but I didn’t learn any of those things in college or seminary. It wasn’t until much later that I learned about these things through reading the martyr books and Anabaptist history. Of course, I come from a church background that doesn’t hold Calvin up as a sort of saint. We held Carey, Judson, Rice and Taylor in much higher esteem.
I might also remind you that Münster was a very small portion of the Anabaptist movement, usually associated with the Hutterites, and was an embarrassment to the majority of Anabaptists, who are opposed to all that happened at Münster. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/21/2003 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | This is sad. I agree with Kenya. Here we are drudging up things that may or may not be true that occurred 500 years ago under a theocracy, mind you, in conditions completely unintelligible to us 21st century democrats.
By the same token, maybe I should start a thread about the body count under King David? MAn, the Old testament gives an account of how "Saul has slain his thousands, but David his TEN thousands!!" yippee!! Did he ever apologize for that? I don't think so, probably mostly b/c God commmanded Israel to entirely wipe out nations, including men, women and children. Was God truly upset b/c David carried out his commands? Not at all. In fact, it was Saul who took it on the chin when he decided to spare some of the Amalekites. God told him in no uncertain terms, did I not command you to kill every single living thing???
But no, it's only John Calvin who holds the title here about the most reviled devilish character in all of theism. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/22/2003 1:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Kenya: there is a door, you know. However, instead of being critical and bemoaning you came here and saying how evil we are, why don't you lift us up in prayer?
I see nothing wrong with discussing the life of someone who influences many Christians so much to see if reflected Christ. RD< you somehow seem to forget to mention that David repented of his sins. I wonder if Calvin showed any remorse?
BTW, Kenya, perhaps you should try and get to know the people here, before you judge them...and perhaps you can show the quote that says someone here hates Calvin...
And RD, where in this post was Calvin reviled? In all CHristendom? I assume you are not including reformed believers in such a foolish statement... | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2003 5:13 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm not obligated to believe your data, especially that which comes from virulent anti-Calvinism websites. (one stating that part of the reason Calvin was not a "christian" is that he believed in infant baptism, which I and millions of other Christians also believe in) Is there real, objective (secular) proof of these murders? That's my first question.
And no David never repented of the killings he did while leading the army of Israel, as far as the biblical record states. But there would be no need for him to, since God himself ordered him to do so. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/22/2003 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't think comparing David to anyone after Christ's resurrection is fair, because God related to the world much differently in David's time than He does now. Because of what Jesus did for us, we don't have to do things like the world does to push our agenda. We simply must preach the Gospel and let the seed be watered by the Spirit. Whether or not John Calvin or anyone else executed people for selfish reasons is important to be aware of, so as not to make those same mistakes. The Crusades were an especially tragic time in Christendom. The Catholic church, before Protestantism even existed, executed people unjustly, I'm sure, and I'm also sure many Protestants did the same thing - like in the Salem Witch Trials.
I think it's dangerous to hold any church founder on the same level as an apostle, though. Just like I said in the Mother of Jesus thread, no human should be esteemed equal to Jesus, whether they be an apostle or not. It causes too many divisions, like this is causing here.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/22/2003 5:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | RD: David repented of HIS sins, not the killings, because they were under the order of God. Unless you can show that Calvin was under orders from God, he has a lot to repent for. If you don't believe in the history laid out, perhaps you would like to prove it wrong, instead of just whining about it. I am still waiting for the proof that Calvin is the most reviled, devilish character in all theism. Spoken like a true lawyer. Overboard and without a shred of proof. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2003 6:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman, do you have a problem with the fact that I have a legal education? Why do you keep referring to me being a lawyer? By the way, what's your career?
I said, "But no, it's only John Calvin who holds the title here about the most reviled devilish character in all of theism."
This is obviously sarcasm. I stated this b/c not only in this post, but in several others on this Board, John Calvin has been compared to Adolf Hitler, etc., and has had his character maligned and his Christianity denied. Since Adolf Hitler was reviled and devilish, and Calvin is compared to him in these threads, I don't think I'm far off base.
And when I said "hold the title here" I am talking about on this BOard, not all of Christendom. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2003 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | | I want to know what your career is so everytime you post something I can taunt you with gems like , "Spoken like a true insurance salesman"- or whatever you are. It's only fair, since you do that to me on just about every one of my posts. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/22/2003 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | I address you as a lawyer because you called yourself one. I make light of it because I believe you have shown the "worse" side of lawyers in some of your statements. We represent all of theism (Christendom?). WOW I think you give us WAY too much credit. I think you would be much better off toning down all your outrageous proclamations and stick to the facts. Either that or move on over to somewhere you would be more comfortable.
My career is irrelevant to any discussion that might pop up here and I am not interested in divulging any more of my personal life than is needed. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/22/2003 8:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | Chris: the circumstances around at least one of Calvin's "executions" is historically suspect. If RD is going to compare him to David, I would like to see some proof, historically, that such actions were God inspired. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2003 8:36 AM (GMT -6) | | I never advertised that I was a lawyer. In my profile I simply wrote in my profession, like many other posters do. I have never used my own name either. Other members saw what I did for a living and started talking about it, as well as using my real name.
And I don't take my marching orders from you, of all people, Honorman. So if I want to stick around, I will. You don't have to read my posts.
And why won't you reveal what you do? Are you ashamed of it? Be proud of your profession (if you have one). | | Back to Top | | |
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Kenya
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 8/22/2003 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Honorman, you are a very unkind person. Thank you for showing me the door and telling me to leave. I would rather be out in the world with my non Christian friends than in here especially around you Honorman, whoever and whatever you are.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/22/2003 4:21 PM (GMT -6) | | RD,
I think you will find in the "translations" thread that "honorman" is a book peddler.
Kenya seems to be very perceptive.
EDIT: It was the wrong thread, but the right occupation. "I get people coming into my store all the time wanting "the most acturate translation." I always ask them, "in what way?"" source Posted - 07/24/2003 : 11:14:18 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 8/22/2003 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I never advertised that I was a lawyer. In my profile I simply wrote in my profession, like many other posters do. I have never used my own name either. Other members saw what I did for a living and started talking about it, as well as using my real name.
RD, I have a friend who is a lawyer, when my friend looked for your name in the national directory that lists all attorneys your name was not there. Is your profile information ficticious?
-S | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2003 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | | Uh, no Springs, I'm not lying. I'm not in the Martindale Hubbell because I work as in house counsel for a technology corporation, I do not work at a law firm. I am licensed in 2 states, Minnesota (1996) and Illinois (1997). I graduated cum laude from the University of Minnesota Law School (top 20 school) in 1996. Do you want my license numbers? Feel free to contact the school. Your audacity is incredible. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2003 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | | And, if Kenya is still here - please don't feel that the people on this board are representative of Open Theism. I am not an Open Theist, but I have several friends and relatives who are, who are a joy to debate and don't stoop to the level of "honor" man and others like him. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/22/2003 6:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you, Kenya! Given your taste in those you praise, I consider that music to my ears.
RD: in one of your posts, you mentioned you were a lawyer. You brought it up. I did not. My private life is my own. Since no one can shame me but me, your taunts hold little weight...but nice try!
BTW, DLW, though I do "work" in a bookstore, it is not my profession. It is, rather, a hobby. I exchange helping out for purchases... | | Back to Top | | |
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