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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/20/2003 11:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | John Calvin's bodycount
I did a BODY COUNT on John Calvin's reign of terror.
The victims are listed, followed by references, (A)...(L), the URLs of which are at the bottom. Have fun!
A. Execution
1. Jacques Gruet
(A)"Thus the State issued dogmatic decrees, the force of which had been anticipated earlier, as when Jacques Gruet, a known opponent of Calvin, was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547, for placing a letter in Calvin's pulpit calling him a hypocrite. Gruet's book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch."
(C)"Calvin cut off the head of Jacques Gruet "for having written impious letters, libertine verses, and for working to overthrow ecclesiastical ordinances."
(D)Quoting Stephan Zweig's "The Right to Heresy": "Jacques Gruet was racked and then executed merely for having called Calvin a hypocrite."
(E)"This regime was resisted by a party incorrectly described as 'Libertines', which Calvin succeeded in overcoming by force. Among the opponents executed after torture were Jacques Gruet (1547), Raoul Monnet (1549), and, best known, Michael *Servetus (1553)."
(F)"Even eminent men were not safe from Calvin's control. Jacques Gruet was beheaded for blasphemy, treason, and a threat to the ministers."
(J)
2. Giovanni Valentino Gentile
(A)and(G)"Another victim of Calvin's fiery zeal was Gentile of an Italian sect in Geneva, which also numbered among its adherents Alciati and Gribaldo. More or less Unitarian in their views, they were required to sign a confession drawn up by Calvin in 1558. Gentile signed it reluctantly, but in the upshot he was condemned and imprisoned as a perjurer. He escaped only to be twice incarcerated at Berne where, in 1566, he was beheaded."
(H) & (I) Very full accounts of Gentile
3. Michael Servetus Is much needed about him? Is there any debate about his murder?
(A)
(C)"Seven years before the conference which was now to take place in Calvin's house on the proposals of the queen-mother, Michel Servet, a Frenchman, travelling through Switzerland, was arrested at Geneva, tried, condemned, and burned alive, on Calvin's accusation, for having "attacked the mystery of the Trinity," in a book which was neither written nor published in Geneva."
(E)(J)
4. Raoul Monnet
(E)
(J)page 223 "This regime was resisted by a party incorrectly described as "Libertines, which Calvin succeeded in overcoming by force.Among the opponents executed after torture were Jacques Gruet (1547), Raoul Monnet (1549), and best known, Michael Servetus (1553). By 1555, however, all resistance had ceased and Calvin was the uncontested master of the city."
5. Others
(A)"Calvin also had twenty women burned at the stake after accusing them of causing a plague that had swept through Geneva in 1545."
(A)"Calvin did not shrink from his self-appointed task. Within five years fifty-eight sentences of death and seventy-six of exile, besides numerous committals of the most eminent citizens to prison, took place in Geneva."
(F)"A heretic who also was an anti-Trinitarian was burned at the stake." NOTE: Probably Servetus
B. Banishment (mere banishment!)
1. Castellio
(A)"Gruet's death was more highly criticized by far than the banishment of Castellio or the penalties inflicted on Bolsec -- moderate men opposed to extreme views in discipline and doctrine, who fell under suspicion as reactionary."
(B)
(K) Very full account of Castellio
2. Bolsec
(A)(B)(F)"Jerome Bolsec, a physician who attacked Calvin's doctrine of predestination, was banished."
(L)
3. Others
(A)"Calvin did not shrink from his self-appointed task. Within five years fifty-eight sentences of death and seventy-six of exile, besides numerous committals of the most eminent citizens to prison, took place in Geneva."
A. http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
B. http://www.gospeltruth.net/heresy/heresy_chap5.htm
C. http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/debalzac/CatherinedeMedici/chap16.html
D. http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/calvin.htm
E. http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/HERITAGF/Issuenos/chl047.shtml
F. http://www.churchlink.com.au/churchlink/worldscope/voice/calvin.html
G. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03195b.htm
H. http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc8/htm/iv.xv.xiv.htm
I. http://online.sksm.edu/ouh/chapter/13_XIII.html
J. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church; F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingstone; Oxford University Press;
K. http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc8/htm/iv.xv.ix.htm (different page from H)
L. http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/hcc8/htm/iv.xv.viii.htm
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 8/20/2003 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Inasmuch as there was a discussion about Calvin's bodycount in which I didn't participate, And
inasmuch as Calvin's Kidz and others concluded that ONLY Servetus was killed due to Calvin's Reign of Terror (ROT), And
inasmuch as Greg Boyd suggested Bolsec was also killed due to ROT
Reverend Boyd's statement that "Bolsac [was] killed by [Calvin]" occurs in the 2nd post of a brief thread entitled "Very Interesting Online Book". I can't see any posts in that thread that asserted that Servetus was the only person executed in Calvin's Geneva. To what discussion and to which of Calvin's Kidz are you referring?
That post by Boyd was also the one in which he asserted that "no Reformed Confession mentions the love of God." In light of your apparent ability to do extensive web searches, your claim that you couldn't comment on the accuracy of that statement because "[you] don't know anything about" the Westminster Confession, Savoy Declaration of Faith, and Canons of Dordt seems odd. Does your Internet search engine have a unusually selective filter on it?
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/20/2003 1:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Now tell me, how, in all my 25 years of being a Christian, I had never heard any of this?
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 8/20/2003 6:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Did I say Calvin PUT Bolsek to death? My bad. He did, however, go to great lengths to TRY to get him executed. indeed, it appears (to some scholars at least) that he was willing to shade the truth here and there to prove his case. For the fullest account of this ugly episode (which, in the light of Laika's research actually looks par for the course, if not tame), see Philip Holtrop, The Bolsec Controversy on Predestination (Edwin Mellon Press, 1993).
Hard for me to find the "hero" in all this.
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/20/2003 11:41 PM (GMT -6) | | If most reformed believers didn't think we open theists were evil enough, this will put them over the top | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/21/2003 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Starkman
Now tell me, how, in all my 25 years of being a Christian, I had never heard any of this?
Starkman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because Calvin is equated with Paul and even Jesus in much of evangelicalism.
Oh, that's a tough one to swollow (though, it's probably true). I mean, SOMEONE would have brought this stuff up to the forefront. There's always someone who has the dirt right up front. I find it so hard to understand how I hadn't at least "heard" of this throughout my Christian years. Amazing!
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Chris Grant
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 151
| Posted 8/21/2003 4:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
When Bolsec and Servetus were mentioned, you questioned Bolsec, i.e. trying to limit it to just Servetus.
Don't quit your day job to become a professional mind-reader. I questioned Reverend Boyd's statement about Bolsec because it was false. Regardless of the validity of one's overall point, that validity should be proved using true statements rather than false ones. (Is it only mathematicians who feel that way?)
quote:
Other threads only mention Servetus (the CARM thread).
So, how does failure to mention others that were executed in Calvin's Geneva besides Servetus show that "Calvin's Kidz . . . concluded" that these others didn't exist? While you have shared with all of us here on the board information that indicates that you have intestines, I don't recall you telling us that you have, say, eyeballs. Does that show that you're blind?
"I believe that, in the present divided state of Christendom, those who are at the heart of each division are all closer to one another than those who are at the fringes. I would even carry this beyond the borders of Christianity: how much more one has in common with a real Jew or Muslim than with a wretched liberalising, occidentalised specimen of the same categories."
(C.S. Lewis to Mary Willis Shelburne, November 10, 1952.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/21/2003 5:09 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/21/2003 5:21 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/21/2003 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Kenya
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 8/21/2003 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | | This is one of the worst websites I have been too. People are very mean and mocking in here. I don't hate John Calvin and don't believe all those things, but I also don't believe he is equal to Jesus. Why do you say this? It is very unfair to say these types of things about other Christians when you really do not even know them. Do some of you take delight in mocking and wanting to put people who don't believe like you in their place? It seems like it to me. I think it's awful and very unchristian-like. I am sorry that I came here. | | Back to Top | | |
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