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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/12/2005 7:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Violin for God said...
(Swede)  Ok. I see... so does this mean things were not added or omitted from scripture (when these revisions took place)?
From memory, here... At some point the name of Ephraim replaces Joseph who replaced Jacob in formal covenants with God. Its functional: Who represents active relationship with God. Other places either (my brain's asleep) Israel or Jacob is left out of the covenant, only to return to that place in covenants in later generations. (I'm sure I botched something.) Condemnations of an irrevocable nature were given; but later when obedience was possible other conditional promises were given. Point was, that God was not tame. He was active, and poked into everything, unbound by religious contract. Only relationship with God mattered, and only that saved.



"We are free not because we can choose, but only when we have chosen well." - Hart

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Starkman
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   Posted 1/12/2005 10:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
JEE: Dr. Craig Keener, in his IVP Bible Background Commentary - New Testament, observes that the situation Paul was addressing at Crete was indeed the background for his comments forbidding women from instructing men. However, if that's the case, it would seem unnecessary to say it--who would think otherwise?
 
Starkman: Well, apparently it was necessary, not just to Timothy but to the Corinthians and all the church (14:33b-25):  . . . As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
 
JEE: Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, in his Complete Word Study New Testament, says that the verse should be rendered, "I do not permit a wife to dictate to her husband. (The Greek word for "wife" is the same as for "woman," and the same holds true in the Greek language for "husband" and "man.") Dr. Zodhiates goes on to point out that the context of the verse, in referring to childbearing, etc., indicates that it is the home and not the assembly of believers that is being referenced here
 
Starkman: Yes, I would agree. My point, unfortunately not as precise as it should have been—that in general and in all manner of life and life style— is that order at all times was important; in church, in the home, at the market and mostly when babying the man. (Remember: baby the man or he will call his mommy!)
 
JEE: One thing that has always kind of intrigued and amused me is that Paul, in arguing from the Genesis account, says the man/husband was not deceived, but the woman/wife was. Wouldn't a person who sinned KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY (as Adam did) be far less trustworthy?
 
Starkman: Oh, I'm all for that. The woman is more trustworthy in the context of the Fall, and that is precisely why I think Paul instructs women as he does. They are trustworthy, but they are the weaker vessel. Again, not a "I'm better than you, woman, so submit!" Rather, it is protection for her in view of her weakness, her position as created in God's image. The man?
well, thanks to him this whole mess took place. God could have quickly fixed the situation after Eve fell if Adam were he to have said to her, "Whoa, girl, you in it! Very nice knowing you. but have a nice life. I'm keeping mine!  YO, GOD! Um...we need to talk!"
 
I don't know what God would have done, but things would have gone completely different (who knows for how long, though!) had he not gave in. Man is told, therefore, to love his wife as Christ loved the church...a call for complete death to self in view of how much "self" was displayed in Adam's fall.  (Please, ya'll, don't interpret "weaker vessel" as inferior. It absolutely is not. It is position, and it is a good position that the woman is in, because she balances out the position in which man is made. Besides, you know the saying: The man is the head, but the woman is the neck that turns the head! Amen to that!)
 
Starkman

Post Edited (Starkman) : 1/12/2005 10:02:37 PM (GMT-6)

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JEE
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   Posted 1/13/2005 12:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Starkman: Well, apparently it was necessary, not just to Timothy but to the Corinthians and all the church (14:33b-25):  . . . As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
 
JEE: If in the above Paul is forbidding women to speak at all in the assembly, then he directly contradicts what he says earlier in ch. 11, when he gives instructions as to the proper way for women to prophesy. It seems to me that the 14:33ff section is clearly speaking of women interrupting the service by asking their husbands (who would be sitting on the opposite side of the room from them) questions which Paul says they should ask at home.
 
Blessings,
 
John


May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE


http://revivaltheology.net

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Starkman
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   Posted 1/13/2005 1:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JEE said...
Starkman: Well, apparently it was necessary, not just to Timothy but to the Corinthians and all the church (14:33b-25):  . . . As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
 
JEE: If in the above Paul is forbidding women to speak at all in the assembly, then he directly contradicts what he says earlier in ch. 11, when he gives instructions as to the proper way for women to prophesy. It seems to me that the 14:33ff section is clearly speaking of women interrupting the service by asking their husbands (who would be sitting on the opposite side of the room from them) questions which Paul says they should ask at home.
 
Blessings,
 
John

Hey there, Jee,
 
I think there's a misunderstanding or something here. You responded to my oost about I Tim 2 by quoting the IVP Commentary in which you stated, "Dr. Craig Keener, in his IVP Bible Background Commentary - New Testament, observes that the situation Paul was addressing at Crete was indeed the background for his comments forbidding women from instructing men. However, if that's the case, it would seem unnecessary to say it--who would think otherwise?"
 
I don't have access to this commentary, so you'll need to be specific about Dr. Keener's statement, ". . . the situation Paul was addressing . . . the background for his comments . . ." or I at a loss.
 
As I noted, Paul did instruct women in the church to be silent (I Cor 14). He also instructed them to learn in silence at home (I Tim 2). Yes, his reasons are not the same for covering both bases, but I was only concerning myself with the moral theological value of I Tim 2.
 
Other than this, that was about it.
 
Thanks,
 
 
For being dazed and confused!
 
Starkman 
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JEE
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   Posted 1/13/2005 2:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
Hi Starkman,
 
As I am moving next week, all my books are packed, so I can only cite Keener from memory. However, I do recall that it was his contention that the 1 Tim. reference was a culturally conditioned truth, not meant as a universal truth in all ages necessarily.
 
That said, the reason I brought up 1 Cor. 11 was simply to point out that Paul simply could not have meant in 1 Cor. 14 that women could never speak in church. If that is what we are to make of 1 Cor. 14, then 1 Cor. 11 makes absolutely no sense at all--why give instructions as to how women should pray or prophesy in the congregation (see context of 1 Cor. 11) if it was in fact that case that women were forbidden to ever speak at all? (This point is simply my own observation, though I do seem to remember several commentaries bringing it up as well).
 
Blessings,
 
John


May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE


http://revivaltheology.net

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 2/11/2005 6:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Guys, I'm not entirely happy with some of these views about the historicity of the fall - as I understand it the assertion being made is this - 'there was no point in the past at which God did something special with humanity, bringing them into a pure relationship with him from which they could fall' I have issues with this, one issue of course is theodicy, another is that this seems to go against the teachings of scripture as far as I can see them, and another is that I don't really see the warrant for doing this other than skepticism that God ever really worked in a close supernatural way with human beings on earth and that the way we see things now is the way things always were - if we see the holy spirit at work in the church and in christians today, why should we doubt that maybe at a time in the past God was in even closer communion with the whole of humanity?
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Starkman
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   Posted 2/11/2005 10:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
markporter said...
Guys, I'm not entirely happy with some of these views about the historicity of the fall - as I understand it the assertion being made is this - 'there was no point in the past at which God did something special with humanity, bringing them into a pure relationship with him from which they could fall' I have issues with this, one issue of course is theodicy, another is that this seems to go against the teachings of scripture as far as I can see them, and another is that I don't really see the warrant for doing this other than skepticism that God ever really worked in a close supernatural way with human beings on earth and that the way we see things now is the way things always were - if we see the holy spirit at work in the church and in christians today, why should we doubt that maybe at a time in the past God was in even closer communion with the whole of humanity?
Hell Mark,
Well, I for one do believe that God created mankind and made him in His image, and that mankind did fall into sin. What I am unsure of , however, is how exactly did all this happen. You may say, "Well, it's right there in scripture; read it for yourself." The problem with that approach is that we have no business reading our twentieth-century modern (and scientific) context for thinking into the creation account when we can hardly expect to believe that the Ancients wrote from this same context. It seems to be seldom that Christians are exposed to the genre of the style of the creation accounts found in several surrounding cultures in those days. And when a Christian does come in contact with the accounts, it is generally within the framework of an apologist defending the literal six days and 6,000 years tradition by stating that the others cultures just got it wrong; the Bible alone got it right.
What I think is missing, sadly, in the "defense" of the Bible (when this type of approach is used as an apology) is simple understanding of genre.  It isn't that the surrounding cultures "missed" it or "distored" it, it is that they wrote in a style back then that is quite foreign to us today. Yes, they may have been wrong in their theology, but one is not wrong in the style in which one writes. It is therefore impossible to try and defend a traditional or classical view of the creation account in scripture by saying, "Look, first this was made, than that, then this..." That, I don't believe, is even the author's point or God's point; rather, the author is trying to say something very theological (but not literally) correct. You and I may worry about the literalty of the text, but I think God was far more interested in the theology of the text.
Yes, man was created. Yes, man fell (there has to be some realization to these two events, or we are left with no basis, whatsoever, for an understanding of man bearing the image of God or of a theodicy, as you noted), but I think it is virtually impossible to arrive at a clear, concise, literal detailed account of the exact chain of events found in only three chapters of the Bible. I contend, again; that isn't the point of the narrative. The theology, however, is clear, concise, detailed and leaves few questions unanswered (Meph will find those unanswered questions, trust me!).
Finally, it is hardly skepticism that drives my thinking and many others who think along these same lines. We are not skeptical; we are trying to make sense of a genre style of writing that is not at all like ours today (funny how easily we recognize symbolic and metaphorical language as we discuss eschotology—e.g, "The Lord will blow smoke from His nostrils and a sharp sword will come out of His mouth to slay His enemies"—but we miss this same issue when we go to the creation account). Some readers are quite conservative as they approach this issue, others are more liberal. It is not an easy subject to tackle, i.e., if one is trying to get to the details. Again, though, I think the theology is beautifully clear.
 
For the conversation,
 
Starkman

Post Edited (Starkman) : 2/11/2005 9:15:22 AM (GMT-6)

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
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   Posted 2/11/2005 10:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Starkman

Thanks for the reply. I think you might be misreading what I was saying a bit though - I'm not advocating a literal understanding of the Genesis text, I don't think it does give us an exact historical description of what happened. What I'm more concerned about are some of the views expressed here which seem to be saying there never was a fall in any even vaguely temporal sense, that this is the way things always were and humanity was always in need of redemption - I think that this kind of view is perhaps more a result of skepticism than of a desire to read meaning from the text. I agree with almost all of what you wrote in your post, I think that is pretty much the right way of going about understanding things,.

Mark
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
 
   Posted 2/11/2005 12:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
markporter said...
Hey Starkman

Thanks for the reply. I think you might be misreading what I was saying a bit though - I'm not advocating a literal understanding of the Genesis text, I don't think it does give us an exact historical description of what happened. What I'm more concerned about are some of the views expressed here which seem to be saying there never was a fall in any even vaguely temporal sense, that this is the way things always were and humanity was always in need of redemption - I think that this kind of view is perhaps more a result of skepticism than of a desire to read meaning from the text. I agree with almost all of what you wrote in your post, I think that is pretty much the right way of going about understanding things,.

Mark
 
Gotcha!
 
Starkman
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