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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/25/2003 11:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | THIS TREAD STARTED OFF REALLY WELL!
Back to the part about it being a mystery of Christ and the Church... THAT seems to be Paul's main point. But rather than thinking that we can set the rest of it aside, we must try to do what we almost always fail at: seeing how we relate to others as being our relationship to Christ, and beginning to grasp that marriage IS a sacrament (potentially), and that how we relate in marriage with repect to the particulars of marriage is also our relationship to Christ. All the hang-ups seem to be with 'worst-case-scenerious.' But they aren't even 'cases.' As I posted on another thread:
quote:
Pauls says that they should marry? Well marriage is the joining of a man and woman. That might just be beinificial. But they would have to prayerfully decide if they want to take on the monasticism of marriage. The architype of Such a monasitism in marriage with a woman might prove to aid in the spiritual growth of that "gay man." An elder in our church was. And the architype of woman is Mary--"Yes, be it unto me" and embracing and nurturing all. In both cases the narcisism of homosexuality would be broken down.
There are other forms of monasticism. But marriage is one form. The two "become one" and in that way neither is a god unto themselves
So, as far as marriage being a potential sacrament (as all sacraments are--even the Lord's Supper can be reduced to an uninteresting snack), these two TOGETHER give us--in Pauls words--a picture of the relationship of Christ and the Church (using my words above): For the man, "I must decrease that he/she/they might increase; and for the woman, "Yes, be it unto me" and embracing and nurturing all." In that way marriage can be thought of as a communal-monasticism in which the two "become one" preventing either becoming a god unto themselves -- but making Christ Lord of all.
Where that sacramentality is impossible divorce is permitted. Marriage is not a law that trumps grace. But marriage is sacred. Within marriage there is to be one Lord, and that is Christ. And in the "I must decrease that she might increase" and the "Yes, be it unto me" embracing and nurturing of all Christ is the center.
MephEternals post Rocked!!!! | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/25/2003 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, it sure as heck is important to me as there are a lot of men out there, Christian also, who don't know diddly about how to be decent husbands and fathers.
I used to think in terms of black and white almost to the point where it was a psychological disorder. Like do all of my husband's preferences supercede my own, simply because he's the head and my leader? So, even if I really want to do something or not, I have to just say no and let us do things his way, all the time or what? Sometimes I just don't know what to do! I'm afraid that if I ever disagreed with my husband, or said I'd prefer to go to a different restaurant, say, than the one he chose, I'd be sinning! I mean, I don't know what's right in wrong in a marriage relationship! That's why I'm asking all this in all seriousness. I'm really concerned about it. I'm not trying to make trouble. I'm asking you all for help so that I don't drive my future husband and myself completely crazy!
And no one's answered my question about my friend, Gerry and his wife. Was she disobeying or wasn't she. I seriously need to know.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/25/2003 12:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
THIS TREAD STARTED OFF REALLY WELL!
Back to the part about it being a mystery of Christ and the Church... THAT seems to be Paul's main point. But rather than thinking that we can set the rest of it aside, we must try to do what we almost always fail at: seeing how we relate to others as being our relationship to Christ, and beginning to grasp that marriage IS a sacrament (potentially), and that how we relate in marriage with repect to the particulars of marriage is also our relationship to Christ. All the hang-ups seem to be with 'worst-case-scenerious.' But they aren't even 'cases.' As I posted on another thread:
quote:
Pauls says that they should marry? Well marriage is the joining of a man and woman. That might just be beinificial. But they would have to prayerfully decide if they want to take on the monasticism of marriage. The architype of Such a monasitism in marriage with a woman might prove to aid in the spiritual growth of that "gay man." An elder in our church was. And the architype of woman is Mary--"Yes, be it unto me" and embracing and nurturing all. In both cases the narcisism of homosexuality would be broken down.
There are other forms of monasticism. But marriage is one form. The two "become one" and in that way neither is a god unto themselves
So, as far as marriage being a potential sacrament (as all sacraments are--even the Lord's Supper can be reduced to an uninteresting snack), these two TOGETHER give us--in Pauls words--a picture of the relationship of Christ and the Church (using my words above): For the man, "I must decrease that he/she/they might increase; and for the woman, "Yes, be it unto me" and embracing and nurturing all." In that way marriage can be thought of as a communal-monasticism in which the two "become one" preventing either becoming a god unto themselves -- but making Christ Lord of all.
Where that sacramentality is impossible divorce is permitted. Marriage is not a law that trumps grace. But marriage is sacred. Within marriage there is to be one Lord, and that is Christ. And in the "I must decrease that she might increase" and the "Yes, be it unto me" embracing and nurturing of all Christ is the center.
MephEternals post Rocked!!!!
MARY AND JOHN AT THE CROSS:
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/25/2003 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
I don't think I ever implied that men aren't capable of making mistakes. There is only One Who never made mistakes. Abraham made mistakes, like letting Sarah be put in a harem, but God protected Sarah in her obedience. But, Sarah made mistakes too, like laughing or letting Hagar bear one of Abraham's children. Just because there are some dirtballs who are men doesn't mean there aren't dirtballs who are women. (dirtball is one of the nicer military terms approximating a scuz bucket) | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 8/25/2003 2:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks all for your posts and responses. I'm still ruminating on the subject (in a good way).
Peace,
~e | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/25/2003 3:42 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/25/2003 4:25 PM (GMT -6) | | WOMEN AND THE SALVATION OF THE WORLD, Paul Evdokimov; translated by Anthony Gythiel In this daring and speculative work, Evdokimov challenges contemporary Christianity to face up to its androcentrism. The dominance of the male in both society and the Church, he asserts, is at the root of many of the evils that plague the modern world. Evdokimov sees the solution in a rediscovery of an authentic Christian anthropology, one that sees males and females as complementary, yet with distinct charisms and vocations. 285pp
$14.00 Paper (Saint Vladimir's Seminary Press)
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/25/2003 4:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
I normally accept what people say at face value. Of course, it may be that Yankee humor is foreign to me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/25/2003 4:50 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/25/2003 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
From Paul Evdokimov's "The Sacrament of Love" (pp.115-117)
The Image of God
There is but one suffering: to be alone. A one personed God would not be love. God is Trinity, one and at the same time three. The human being, as a closed monad, would not be His image. The biblical account calls woman a "helper meet for man," more precisely, a "face to face." Scripture does not state that it is not good "to work alone" but "to be alone,"and thus the woman will "be with him." "One toward the other" forms their co-being; and thus it is from the beginning, in principia, that the human being has been a nuptial being. "And [He] named them Man when they were created" (Gen 3:2). "When speaking of two, god speaks of one," John Chrysostom observes.
It is to their reciprocity, to their dyad of an ecclesial nature, that God addresses Himself when he uses both the singular and the plural forms of "you." without ever separating them. But an element alien to man, the demonic, implants a distance into their relationships and then, throughout history, the one will not stop saying to the other: "Where are you--Akekkah? in which condition are you" This ontological perversion is recorded in the words God addresses for the first time to each one separately" "To
the woman he said..." and, "To Adam he said..." (Gen 3:16-17) This event proves that the differentiation between masculine and feminine is above all spiritual.
Indeed, the creation of Adam has been from the first the creation of the totality of ma; in Hebrew, the word Adam-man is a collective term. The book of Genesis ways literally, "Let us make man [ha adam, in the singular] and let them [in the plural] have dominion. And God created man [in the singular] and He created them man-male and man-female [the plural refers to the singular, man]." "Man transcends the male-female distinction, because
the latter is initially not the separation of two individuals that are
henceforth isolated from one another. On the contrary, we can state that these two aspects of man are at this point inseparable in the mind of God, and that a human being, taken in isolation and viewed by himself, is not fully human. In being removed from its complement there is, so to speak, only half a man.
. . .The birth of Eve projects into existence what was moving already inside the being. Adam has always been Adam-Eve. . .
The archetypical order of creation is integrated into the order of grace at the wedding of Cana. The base of ancient wedding cups represents Christ holding two crowns above the spouses, the divine principle of the reintegration of the initial order. St. john Chrysostom states this precisely: "The qualities of love are such that the beloved and the lover no longer form two beings, but
one . . . They are not only brought together, but 'are one'" which means man-woman, one 'adam' in the biblical sense, for love transmits the very nature of things'." in a commentary on Genesis, St. Cyril of Alexandria adds, "god created co-being."
The patristic concept is fundamental to the East and inspires all its canonical text. marriage is defined as "the unity of two persons in one body and one being, a single substance.: or the union in one body and one soul, but in two persons." The definition is important; the nuptial "I" does not abolish the persons but is in the image of the Trinity. The union of the three Persons in one nature form a single subject: God, one and at the same time triune. Likewise, the nuptial union of two persons forms a dyad-monade, at the same time tow and one, united in a third person, God. God made the woman together with the man, not only that thus the mystery of God's sole government might be exhibited, but also that this mutual affection might be greater." It is therefore nuptial man who is in the image of the triune God, and the dogma of the Trinity is his divine archetype, the icon of the nuptial community.
In the priestly prayer of Christ we hear, "I have glorified them. . .that they may be one in us as we are one." The Service of Crowning of marriage announces that the spouses are "crowned with glory. . . ."
THIS IS SIMPLY D-Y-N-A-M-I-T-E !
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/25/2003 7:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Miss E-
I understand submission in Eph. 6 to be first mutual and in Christ. I take this right into my marriage. Anita and I submit to one another. Sometimes she's right on and makes her case and convinces me and I defer to her. Sometimes I make my case and convince her. We never make a decision unless both of us are in agreement. Never. Where she is gifted and I'm not, I trust and submit to her gifts. Likewise she with me.
I honestly don't understand the problem.
Headship I understand in terms of Paul's own explanation of it, that is, the cross. If husbands have a privilege over their wives, it's the privilege to be the first to serve, to die, and to sacrifice for the other and not the right to demand the wife to do these things.
Tom
PS Sorry ladies, I'm already married.  | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/26/2003 6:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Well, nobody answered my question. I cried for about 3 hours last night because of this issue, but as usual the men just skirt the issue and quote the Bible and don't explain in specific detail what it is that God wants wives to actually DO in all situations. I don't know how I could ever be happy knowing that my desires don't really matter.
Submitting to someone is different than obeying someone. A husband must submit to his wife, and that is free-will. But a wife has to obey her husband whether she likes it or not, or else she's sinning against God. I can't even talk to God about this because He's the one who made up all the rules!
Tigress, I think that perhaps Tom, Meph and I all answered your question. If not, then perhaps you are missing the real question.
Then, taking Tom's remarks about "Headship I understand in terms of Paul's own explanation of it, that is, the cross. If husbands have a privilege over their wives, it's the privilege to be the first to serve, to die, and to sacrifice for the other and not the right to demand the wife to do these things." and putting it on the other foot, you can see that any crafting of "obligation" for a woman to be "under" is also false. Woman are to be side-by-side with men UNDER the Cross. The Charism for women of "embracing all" is one of nurture -- never being dominated!
(I just think you either didn't read, or felt a need to vent. Start again with Tom's, go see Meph's; and then reread mine.)
Fred/PoW
"Time is the freedom to love."
(from Ware's "The Inner Kingdom")
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/26/2003 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by fred
Tigress, I was prying either for or with you on this. I felt it. Maybe you feel a burden for the pain of others, and sadness over evil -- the Beatitudes came to mind. But then maybe it is pain of your own? If it is grace to weak in prayer, then good. But I also hope for you to live free from damaging evils. (Stay away from big pot-holes...)
I honestly think that Satan bombards me with stuff (lies) at certain times in my life more than others. I just went through a move that took over a week to haul heavy boxes and stuff to my new place, and I think the stress of it all sort of weakened me emotionally (as well as phsyically) which made it easier for Satan to attack me.
Also, on Sunday, I discovered that Pastor Peggy Riley is leaving Woodland Hills and I was somewhat disappointed because I had hoped I could continue prayer counseling with her after September when I get more personal/vacation time again. She and I had met about 5 or 6 times so she knows my history and had prayed for me and had given me messages from The Lord, so it would be hard to have to go to someone else and start all over again.
Plus I feel sorry for my cat because I can tell she's really sad about leaving the only home she ever knew, and she had no choice in the matter.
Thanks for your prayers. I tend to be far too emotional sometimes and very empathetic towards others. My co-worker's ex-husband has been really neglecting his parental duties to their 13-year-old daughter and it's been culminating in some real stress for my co-worker. He doesn't even care if their daughter is home alone for long, or who she hangs out with. He just told her today that he's been hiding stuff from her that their daughter has been caught doing, and he's been undermining all the mother's discipline. It's like he doesn't even care about their daughter! He's not concerned about her safety and what could happen. He doesn't try to find out who her friends are or talk to their parents. She's disobeyed her mom and left a friend's house to go be with some 17-year-old guy and her father's not all that concerned about any of it!
(Okay, breathe...) Well, as you can see or at least I can, that the world isn't all that black and white sometimes. You've got dad's like this who don't care enough about their children and dad's like that Paul guy over on the "Women in Ministry" thread who are dictators over their children, suffocating all the life out of them completely! It's hard for me to know if any man can ever truly be trusted sometimes because it seems like so often, when it comes to the women in their lives, they keep screwing up royally!
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/26/2003 10:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
I am sorry if my comments in this thread have in any way seemed insensitive. I am also sorry you have had such a difficult time emotionally due to the discussion in this thread.
As for my relationship with my wife, I can assure you that my wife does not think "all men are jerks," though with a dead-beat father who left when she was five and a series of no-account live-in boyfriends of her mom while she was growing up, Jaime certainly would have good reason to never trust men at all.
As to how this all works out in day-to-day life in our home, I don't go around bossing her around at all. In fact I can't ever remember having to "put my foot down," so to speak, with regard to an issue were disagreed about (and neither can my wife, who I asked to read my post). We both have no problem speaking our minds, and I am definitely not in the least insecure when my wonderful very red-headed wife feels free to speak her mind to me. I really don't think I would ever have been attracted to a passive woman.
Generally speaking we each have responsibilities that are simply understood. As a stay-at-home mom to our darling six-month-old daughter, Jaime's primary "job" is to take care of the baby while I'm at work trying to make enough money for us to pay our bills. (She is the one who has insisted from the beginning of our courtship that the only "job" she has ever wanted is be is a godly wife and mother).
If we disagree on something, I am never interested in just saying she HAS to agree with me simply because I say so. If I cannot persuade by use of reason and explanation, I simply let the matter ride for the time being. In other words, I don't believe that being the husband entitles me to a dictatorship, not at all.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/26/2003 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | |
James Thurber's classic picture of a man who anthropomorphizes his concept of home due to his hen-pecking wife.
Point being, that lots of things can go wrong, and everything matters. And problems are not simple, nor are they cookie-cutter in form.
Find some catharsis in the picture if you can. Thurber lets us laugh, even about tense subjects.
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/26/2003 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, my daughter has revived after her last suffication and this is what she has to say,quote:
Tigress,
Just thought I would pop in.....I over read some interesting comments that you made about that “Paul guy over on the Women in the Ministry thread”. I happen to be that daughter that you commented about that is “being suffocated”. Hmmm...interesting thought for certain !!! I am HAPPILY living by MY choice with my wonderful family and have been for TWENTY-NINE years. A more loving and caring family you will never find. I have been given the “right” to make any choice I want to, but counsel has been given when asked. I am only 29, my Father and Mother are 30 years older than I and therefore have MUCH wisdom....through studying Scripture and living life. I would have made some REALLY stupid decisions in my life had it not been for them guiding me and directing me in the right way. My parents love me very much and WANT the BEST for me. Hence the reason for me ASKING their counsel.
I am NOT suffocated in the LEAST !!! I have been given their blessing to marry a VERY special young man that loves me with all his heart and HE also has lived the same blessed life I have had by staying under his parent’s authority and counsel all HIS life. My parents and I know that I have been given every chance in this world to be the best I can be and I feel they have done a terrific job !!!
That “Paul guy” is a great Dad and I am proud to call him mine !!! I wish their were more Dad’s like him out in the world !!!!
BTW, her name is Rebekah.
I'll post this to the other thread. | | Back to Top | | |
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