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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/25/2003 2:53 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Hey growing up in the sometimes all too sheltered Evangelical Church of America, I was never raised to fully understand what tongues were. This summer I had the oppritunity to confront a die hard Charismatic about what he believes speaking in tongues is for and whether or not it is a dead gift. I held my ground on the doctrines that I tend to believe are throughout Scripture, but knowing that there are many well educated and rehearsed people out here, I was wondering what different people's takes on speaking in Tongues. Just let me know what you think and why.
What I concluded years ago:
1. tongues at Pentecost were foreign languages
Acts 2
quote:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
2. If there is a "private" language God gives you, keep it private.
Paul says that if there is no interpreter present, keep quiet.
3. In 1 Cor. 14, Paul puts tongues in it's rightful place.
4. I'm not interested in tongues, but if someone else is, go for it.
5. Having a "private" language is no sign of spiritual maturity, not having a "private" language is no sign of spiritual immaturity.
6. IMHO, tongues is THE MOST boring topic of the Christian religion.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/25/2003 5:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
Though I agree with you in the main part, I do find, Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, which would separate Pentecost from the Corinthian experience, to a degree.
I Corinthians 11-14 deals with the assembly and doesn't have much to do with practices outside the assembly.
If tongues is "dead", so are the rest of the gifts.
BTW, Tongues was the subject of my master's thesis back in 1978, but it sure seems to be enjoying a long life as a controversy. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/25/2003 6:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Paul5388
Laika,
Though I agree with you in the main part, I do find, Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, which would separate Pentecost from the Corinthian experience, to a degree.
I Corinthians 11-14 deals with the assembly and doesn't have much to do with practices outside the assembly.
If tongues is "dead", so are the rest of the gifts.
BTW, Tongues was the subject of my master's thesis back in 1978, but it sure seems to be enjoying a long life as a controversy.
I agree with you! It *is* so 1970s to me, that's why I find the topic boring now. It had a certain cliqueish quality back then and I imagine it still does in some circles.
If someone enjoys it, more power to them. Though, perhaps learning Arabic might be more useful to the kingdom of God.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 8/31/2003 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | [1Cor. 1:4-5, 7 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that has been given you in Christ Jesus…just as the testimony of Christ has been strengthened among you— so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul apparently assumes the church should not lack ANY "spiritual gift" so long as we are waiting for "the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also, Paul tells us to strike for (zelao… literally, be zealous for… the spiritual gifts).
1Cor. 12:31 But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
1Cor. 14:1 ¶ Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:5 Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.
So, I’d recommend being more than okay with OTHERS using spiritual gifts. I’d encourage people to be zealous for them. What gifts they get, of course, is up to the Holy Spirit.
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 9/3/2003 1:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg,
What a breath of fresh air. That is the best pastoral instruction regarding tongues or the gifts in general I have seen in a long time. I hope it is taken to heart. Thanks | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/3/2003 7:06 PM (GMT -6) | | | We should be zealous for anything God would give us, but we should always remember that it is up to God AND we should never try to "make" God perform. | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 9/4/2003 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | | honorman,
Nice sentiments about the things of God but in this case there are explicit instructions to be zealous for spiritual gifts. This in my view points to the right perspective regarding spiritual gifts. Tongues being the subject of the thread. Just curious, could you explain a bit about what you mean by trying to make God perform?
This would not include His promises would it? I mean would you view someone claiming the promises of God trying to make Him perform?
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/4/2003 1:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Sure. I've been in places where people are encouraged to just babble like idiots, to prime the pump they say, or to show faithfulness to God. All you get is a bunch of babbling idiots.
We are to pursue and be open to the gifts BUT if the God of the universe wants you to have a gift and you are open to it, I think you'll pretty much know you have the gift. I truly don't believe there will be any doubt there. So babbling, to me, is a lack of faith in God...
Claiming the promises of what? I know a person who was "healed" of her back problems, was told to rise and claim God's healing. She tried to walk when she shouldn't. She ended up in the hospital.
I think it is important to recognize that miracles are SUPERnatural, not natural events and are not of the norm. We can debate this, but history shows that most Christians did not do as the first century Christians did. Therefore I do not believe miracles are a daily occurance. Too many Christians feel they can have whatever they want from God, that they are promised healings and miracles. That isn't so. Desire to be used of God. But let God decide what he would have you do. | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 9/4/2003 2:50 PM (GMT -6) | | honorman,
What triggered your response, the subject of spiritual gifts or the instructions Paul gave of being zealous for them?
Are you referring to speaking in tongues as babbling like idiots? The unlearned respond in such a manner. Your language gives me the impression you trample on tongues.
I agree, if one has been given a gift from God, they know it.
Babbling (tongues?) (Claiming the promises of what?) Miracles are supernatural, I agree. I get the picture, and no, I don't want to debate.
Sorry for your bad experiences, but explicit biblical instructions should not elicit such a reply. Those wounds will fester if they are not taken care of. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/4/2003 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Ron: I'm not really sure where you are going with this or what you thought was wrong with my reply. We do NO service to God and no glory to him if we try and take control of gifts we FEEL we should have. What wounds fester? What are you talking about? We should desire after ANYTHING God would have for us, but there is nothing within Paul's scripture that says we will get any gift. I believe Paul is simply making such that we are open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Again, I do not know where you are coming from...
Again, I would ask you...claiming what promises...promises God gave in his scriptures, or promises people believe God is telling them now...there is a great difference...
I would also add that I wonder if this was not a command specific to the Corithians and may not be applicable to us today in the sense that the gifts may not be as readily available to us. | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 9/5/2003 4:33 PM (GMT -6) | | honorman,
I thought, just me, you tried to nullify the plain instructions for seeking the gifts through earnest desire by your response which I understood as, no don't seek earnestly after the spiritual gifts, don't have an ardent desire for them. Just have a desire for everything God is willing to give. When Paul says twice 1. 1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: 2. 1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
Where does this take control of the gifts we FEEL we should have come from. It seems to me you are still reacting to some experiences you had in the past and disagree with and are in my view, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The scriptures that the Holy Spirit uses to teach us. You also, in my view, nullify the instructions with your interpretation that they are not for us today.
Your language of babbling idiots, I hear you saying tongues is foolishness, I understand you as saying they are worthless by your language. The Holy Spirit gives the utterance, why is that such a lowly thing to you. Even if people, being zealous of spiritual things but as in the Corinthian church need instruction miss right order, that is no reason to quit being zealous for spiritual things.
1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
So you heard someone speaking to God. (babbling idiots?)
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself;
We all need edifying.
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
He is teaching about spiritual things and the order in the church which you seem to try and make of none effect by your thoughts they may not apply to us today. Granted, there is a lack of understanding about spiritual gifts today but the record stays the same, he does not want us ignorant and to walk in love and desire the best gifts. Covet earnestly in this case is not evil and it indicates to me a needed attitude of heart for reception which your lack of distinction nullifies and keeps the myth of no power for us today in the minds of people.
I thought by your relating your experiences of babbling idiots and a failed healing you were bitter with people contending for the faith in what God is willing to do today.
You mentioned scriptural promises and promises people feel God has spoken directly to them. What IS the difference, do you deny God speaks today to His people like He did in the bible record? So what if people get is wrong sometimes, I would think the attitude of the heart is more important than trying to conform to someone who disagrees with the order of the meeting. Don't throw in the towel after only one round.
Do you see where I am coming from? I think the Holy Spirit is the most neglected gift the church has. I think the gift of tongues which is utterance the Holy Spirit gives, not man, he only yeilds the voice, is trampled upon today and all the while it could be a great source of edification for the body of Christ.
Your response seemed ill advised upon the heels of a positive biblical direction which I viewed as being Spirit led.
So I replied, its all so subjective isn't it, but nevertheless, in love we fight the good fight of faith.
Peace be with you.
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 9/7/2003 1:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Eli,
Thanks for your observations. I did ask if he was referring to speaking in tongues as babbling idiots. But you may be right. Sorry honorman if I misunderstood you. Eli thanks for the correction. | | Back to Top | | |
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frog
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 10
| Posted 9/15/2003 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm with Dr Boyd and rsirkel on this. if it is on offer and obviously good and profitable, why not go for it together with all the other good stuff the Spirit got for us? If some people abuse it, so what? Same thing with healing, it is obviously in the realm of the kingdom and extremely profitable, so why not learn it?
I learned to speak in tongues. Doesnt sound so romantic and dramatic, but it's true. A few friends prayed for me and "nothing happened" emotionally that is. but I wasn't that emotional anyway so I wasn't surprised. But when I was driving on my own I tried to just speak gibberish and after a while I found it coming up spontaniously. It's over 15 yrs now and its really helpful.
So to Borg and others, if you're curious, investigate it. There is so´much more to experience of God than we think. And we westerners are so locked in our modern mindset that I think we can learn lots from so called "Thirld World Christians". They've got something we lost a long time ago. I have the priviliege to know a group from Kongo, and when they pray...
A helpful thought is also what the early Christians experienced Fee's "The empowering presence" and Dunns "Jesus and the Spirit" really opened my eyes to the fact that these people had experiences, strong ones, and they weren't just in their minds.,
Some thoughts,
Roger
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 9/15/2003 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by frog
I'm with Dr Boyd and rsirkel on this. if it is on offer and obviously good and profitable, why not go for it together with all the other good stuff the Spirit got for us? If some people abuse it, so what? Same thing with healing, it is obviously in the realm of the kingdom and extremely profitable, so why not learn it?
I learned to speak in tongues. Doesnt sound so romantic and dramatic, but it's true. A few friends prayed for me and "nothing happened" emotionally that is. but I wasn't that emotional anyway so I wasn't surprised. But when I was driving on my own I tried to just speak gibberish and after a while I found it coming up spontaniously. It's over 15 yrs now and its really helpful.
So to Borg and others, if you're curious, investigate it. There is so´much more to experience of God than we think. And we westerners are so locked in our modern mindset that I think we can learn lots from so called "Thirld World Christians". They've got something we lost a long time ago. I have the priviliege to know a group from Kongo, and when they pray...
A helpful thought is also what the early Christians experienced Fee's "The empowering presence" and Dunns "Jesus and the Spirit" really opened my eyes to the fact that these people had experiences, strong ones, and they weren't just in their minds.,
Some thoughts,
Roger
Frog,
I understand that your experience may be real and maybe it really is the Holy Spirit empowering you to speak in tongues, but it really doesn't make sense to me that a person would have to try to compel the Spirit to do this. If God truly wants a person to have a spiritual gift He will give it to them. It will just come to them, like sleep. They don't have to force it by speaking nonsense and hope that the Spirit will take over. Also, be careful about the source of any spiritual ability you have. There is such a thing as demonic tongues. Satan makes a counterfeit for everything. I have a taped testimony of someone who, before he got saved, used to speak in demonic tongues.
I remember reading somewhere in the Bible about how the pagans who followed false gods used to speak in chirps and clicks. This was a reference to demonic tongues. (I don't remember the book, chapter or verse, though. It was in the O.T.) Anyway, during my 2nd year in a WI college, I visited a church with some friends because we were looking for a church to regularly attend, and some of the people there were speaking in tongues that sounded like chirps and clicks. It was really eerie sounding and it just didn't seem right. Not long after that, we came across that verse in the Bible about those kinds of sounds. I think the Lord was probably warning us away from that church.
Please don't take offense to what I'm saying here. I'm only telling you what I know from my own experiece. Your tongues may very well be from the Lord.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/15/2003 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Frog I appreciate your time to post, it means much to me. However I really have a problem with what you said along the lines of seeking this spiritual gift. I will not seek after any spiritual gift. If God wants me to have it, I will. As the old saying goes, "What you seek for you will find." Just because one is speaking in tongues, doesn't mean that it is from God. I would be very careful treading the line of, "I'm going to try it, because it has to honor God in some way." If I ever have the blessing of speaking in tongues, so be it. But as it is laid out in the Holy Word, speaking in tongues is kind of like a third rate gift of the Spirit. We should desire to prophecy even more, or speak God's Word. But Paul makes it even clearer that perhaps the only gift we should truly seek after is the gift of LOVE as we see in 1 Cor 12 and 13. Thanks for your response though.
g n p
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/16/2003 1:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Borg says:
"But as it is laid out in the Holy Word, speaking in tongues is kind of like a third rate gift of the Spirit. "
Think hard about what you are saying here.
peace, don | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/16/2003 5:00 AM (GMT -6) | | I didn't have to think that hard. But lets go back to the Word. 1 Cor. 12:27-31, "Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: FIRST apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prphets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnesty desire the BEST gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way."
I'll let the Word speak for itself.
g n p
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 9/16/2003 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Whoops... I think we both missed it. Tongues are a eighth rate gift.
And in the church God has appointed first of all *1* apostles, second *2* prophets, third *3* teachers, then *4* workers of miracles, also those having *5* gifts of healing, those able to *6* help others, those with *7* gifts of administration, and those *8* speaking in different kinds of tongues.
peace, don | | Back to Top | | |
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frog
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 10
| Posted 9/16/2003 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | |
Hi!
This was interesting.
First, I realise I don’t know where you Borg is coming from. The ”all too sheltered Evangelical Church of America” is unfamiliar to me. Are you/they what you North-Americans call ”cessationists”? ie that the gifts have ceased. As a European I have never actually met one, just read about it. We don’t have that theology at all here in Sweden among evangelicals. People might ignore the gifts or be sceptical but not argue from the Bible that they have ceased. Curious about that.
Second, I find it interesting that both Borg and Tigress, who does not speak in tongues, have quite strong opinions about HOW that is supposed to work. Where did you get that from?
quote:
”If God truly wants a person to have a spiritual gift He will give it to them. It will just come to them, like sleep.” (Tigress)
Why is that? We all have preconceptions about things, but where did you get yours?
Let’s take another example, how do people in your churches learn to prophesy? We learned, from Americans actually, that you can practice it. You can go from ”thoughts” to impressions, checking them out along the way, and soon you will learn what is the Spirit speaking or what is just your imagination. And if you have a strong prophetic gifting it will emerge quite clearly. How do you do it? (not a rethorical question, an interested one)
Third, regarding Borgs comment quote:
”I will not seek after any spiritual gift. If God wants me to have it, I will.”
I think it is unscriptural attitude. I will just refer to Boyds comment above.
quote:
Also, Paul tells us to strike for (zelao… literally, be zealous for… the spiritual gifts).
1Cor. 12:31 But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
1Cor. 14:1 ¶ Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, and especially that you may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:5 Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.
To play out tongues or spiritual gifts against love is, in my opinion, an exegetical mistake.
In Him,
Roger
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 9/16/2003 9:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Frog: "If some abuse it, so what?" Such a statement shows a complete ignorance of what scripture teaches on tongues, and its warning against such abuses. Do you not care about what God wants from us, or are you more concerned with your own "emotional" happiness? Sorry, but I don't buy your "I learned how to speak in tongues." Is God so weak that he cannot simply impart a gift? If you have to learn it, it ain't a supernatural gift, but the gibberish of someone who is trying to force God's hard. I truly doubt what you have is of God, but rather of your own doing.
Whether or not someone speaks in tongues is irrelevant to whether or not they can comment on it. The Bible talks about tongues and its abuse. A person who can read can find the information and state their opinion on it whether or not they speak them.
People don't learn prophecy. It is a gift, given by God. Perhaps you should go to dictionary and look up the definition of gift and skill. YOu seem to be confusing the two. | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/16/2003 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Frog might I put in that I think your last post was unecesary.
Frog: "First, I realise I don’t know where you Borg is coming from. The ”all too sheltered Evangelical Church of America” is unfamiliar to me. Are you/they what you North-Americans call ”cessationists”? ie that the gifts have ceased. As a European I have never actually met one, just read about it. We don’t have that theology at all here in Sweden among evangelicals. People might ignore the gifts or be sceptical but not argue from the Bible that they have ceased. Curious about that."
Borg: When did I ever say that gifts were dead? I don't care if you have never "met" one of "us" before. Basically I took your whole post to be nothing more than an ad hominim, and to me that shows ingnorance and arrogance in trying to have a good conversation. Why don't you back it up with a book at least? If not the Holy Word. And I believe your nonchalant attitude of "who cares if people are abusing it" is a thought that is perhaps straight from the devil. I suppose this means we can abuse the gift of grace as well? Paul himself says, "Certianly NOT!" And if you are speaking in tongues solely from "living in the Spirit" and for the emotion high or as many have put it, the personal edification of yourselve, I dont see anywhere in the Holy Word where it tells us to view gifts for the good of ourselves.
I don't disagree with Boyd that we should have a zeal for searching after gifts. But, and as Boyd/Bible seems to say, "But strive for the greater gifts." Tongues is not viewed as a GREATER gift, third rate as I see it. Therefore my "seeking" after tongues is going to pale in comparision to that of seeking to present the Holy Word.
Finally what do you mean by "play out tongues..." that makes no sense. Please explain it all the more.
g n p
borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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