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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/30/2003 1:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | Over at TheoWeb, they have a california-based talk-radio apologetics group, StandToReason, post stuff every week. I had skirmish with them today on the acceptability of a theistic evolution viewpoint.
They rejected that on the basis that it allowed for chance. I defended chance as being acceptable within a Christian world-view as evidenced by OpenTheism. Well, then they said they rejected OpenTheism as antithetical to the Bible and so I pointed out that their reason for rejecting theistic evolution and openTheism were similar and then appealed to the TheoWeb board, where there had been successful debates on the biblicity of OVTheism, against the view that OpenTheism was antithetical to the Bible.
I know that Process-types look at theology from an evolutionary perspective a lot and that open-theism has always tried to differentiate itself from process-theism, but if you think about it, permitting free-will as the rendering of the uncertain as certain should also let us incorporate the concept of chance as playing a role in history and that is what is essential for having a theistic view of evolution. As such, open-theism should help pave the way for a more formal evangelical understanding of macro-evolution...
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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scott_jorgenson
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 271
| Posted 9/30/2003 2:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Rhetorical question: What is "chance"? In the scientific sense, as well as the common sense, it is simply causation through factors that are either physically unknown or indeterministic (eg chaos or quantum). This sense of the word (which is all science can claim) says nothing ultimate. For any Christian who believes in providence, whether open theist or traditional, "chance" can metaphysically refer to supernatural or divine production or oversight, without any conflict with the mere physical meaning of the word. They are simply different spheres of description. For example, it is physically "chance" that I exist (ie, that my father and mother met and one particular sperm fertilized one particular egg) and yet, metaphysically, my birth was not "chance".
Thus the "chance" inherent in evolution is no more inherently-unchristian than the "chance" inherent in any other worldly process. It is unnecessary to look solely to open theism to defend evolution in this regard. It is far more plainly defendable on much more basic and common grounds that are consistent with any view of divine sovereignty to the extent each such view explains everyday "chance" occurrences by appeal to that view's understanding of providence.
Unfortunately I won't be able to participate further in this; I'll be offline for the next week. Regards to all,
Scott
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/30/2003 3:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by scott_jorgenson
Rhetorical question: What is "chance"? In the scientific sense, as well as the common sense, it is simply causation through factors that are either physically unknown or indeterministic (eg chaos or quantum). This sense of the word (which is all science can claim) says nothing ultimate. For any Christian who believes in providence, whether open theist or traditional, "chance" can metaphysically refer to supernatural or divine production or oversight, without any conflict with the mere physical meaning of the word. They are simply different spheres of description. For example, it is physically "chance" that I exist (ie, that my father and mother met and one particular sperm fertilized one particular egg) and yet, metaphysically, my birth was not "chance".
Thus the "chance" inherent in evolution is no more inherently-unchristian than the "chance" inherent in any other worldly process. It is unnecessary to look solely to open theism to defend evolution in this regard. It is far more plainly defendable on much more basic and common grounds that are consistent with any view of divine sovereignty to the extent each such view explains everyday "chance" occurrences by appeal to that view's understanding of providence.
Unfortunately I won't be able to participate further in this; I'll be offline for the next week. Regards to all,
Scott
I don't see the fact that there was a high probability that a different one of my father's sperm fertilized my mother's egg, is by any means anti-christian. My coming into existence instead of any other of a number of possible combinations need not be determined by God. Just as whether or not I would as a zygote be or not be absorbed by my mother's womb(which has an 80% chance of occurring)need not be predetermined.
It is true that metaphysically we can postulate that all of these things are in fact determined and the fact that they appear as random acts to us is spurious. But if we can postulate that someone accepting salvation is not predermined, I see no reason why that same fact may not apply in other areas. I do not need to romanticize my existence since I am ultimately more than my dna and the same imago-dei would have been formed and face choices similar to what I faced if another sperm had fertilized my mother's egg.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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