 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/14/2004 6:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | Quoting from Psalm 14, Paul said, "there is none righteous, no not one." (Rom. 3:10). Is this a universally true statement? Is it really the case that no human being EVER is righteous? (except for Jesus Christ THE RIGHTEOUS, of course, who has always been the epitome of righteousness).
In another thread, spenlake has tried to argue that children are wicked, evil, hell-deserving sinners, based on the assertion that "there is none righteous, no not one." Is this idea borne out by the entirety of Scripture? I did some searching, and came up with the following verses, which all contradict the idea, so often advanced by Calvinists, that being human is automatically equivalent to being wicked, sinful, and deserving of hell. I would like to hear input from others. Thanks. John.
Genesis 7:1 - And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Sure, pickin's were slim, but God here calls Noah righteous.
Genesis 18:23 - And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
This theme of two basic categories of people is consistent throughout Scripture.
Psalms 1:5 - Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Okay, but if "there is none righteous, no not one," then that must mean that no one is in the congregation of the righteous.
Psalms 1:6 - For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Again, if there are truly no righteous people, this verse simply makes no sense at all.
Psalm 15:1 Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? 2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
God's tabernacle and holy hill must be quite empty.
Psalms 32:11 - Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.
I don't guess anyone fits this bill, if Rom. 3:10 is a universally true statement.
Psalms 34:15 - The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psalms 34:17 - The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
I guess we can't expect to have God hear our prayers, unrighteous worms that we are.
Psalms 37:16 - A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Yikes! Jesus ups the ante!
Matthew 13:17 - For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Wait a minute! There are "none righteous, no not one." What's the deal?
Matthew 25:37 - Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Ditto.
Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Nice sentiment, but since there are "none righteous, no not one," this is simply wishful thinking at best.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
So who is able to be accepted? There are NONE righteous.
Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Again, it looks like heaven's going to be a very lonely place.
Romans 8:4 - That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
James 5:16 - Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
So WHO can ever expect their prayers to be answered, really?
1 Peter 4:18 - And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1 John 2:29 - If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
(Please forgive the tongue-in-cheek display, friends. It does seem to me that "there are none righteous, no not one," does need to be qualified quite a bit).
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/14/2004 8:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
John,
What do you believe it means to be righteous?
I think the apostle John said it most plainly: "He that practices righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous."
quote:
Can you be righteous in the morning and not righteous in the evening, sort of like being gracious in one situation and ungracious in another?
Yes, I think so. I believe we have the power of choice, as you say, "choice by choice, I affect eternity." Choice really amounts to nothing if it isn't the ability to choose between right and wrong in every circumstance.
quote:
He says that our righteousness is as "filthy rags."
It seems to me that that oft-quoted portion of Scripture is taken out of context:
Isaiah 64:5 You meet those who gladly do right, those who remember you in your ways. But you were angry, and we sinned; because you hid yourself we transgressed.
6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. 7There is no one who calls on your name, or attempts to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have delivered us into the hand of our iniquity. NRSV
It seems to me that the prophet is here lamenting what the people of God have become (their "righteous deeds" have become like filthy rags).
quote:
Perhaps we really do not have any righteousness of our own.
Again, it seems to me that the many verses I cited above would affirm your statement in one sense (no one is righteous apart from the Holy Spirit's influence in their life), while not affirming it the sense of "legal fiction." That is, it seems to me that the Bible is quite clear that "he that worketh righteousness is accepted by Him," and "righteous is as righteous does" (my tongue-in-cheek "Gumpesque" paraphrase of 1 John 3:7).
quote:
It is only "in Him" that we are righteous.
Yes, but again, Scripture affirms that our righteousness is actual (not merely imputed):
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
Your thoughts?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/15/2004 4:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Quoting from Psalm 14, Paul said, "there is none righteous, no not one." (Rom. 3:10).
At minimum, Paul has dealt with two situations of people (those knowing the Law, and those "knowing better.") His concern is that BOTH need help that they themselves cannot provide. The concern is not to convince them of their problem. They "know their missery." They need help! Christ is that help.
And being really, really, really children of the fall, they inherit from their parent's sin the mortality that urges them to sin and create more death too.
Like I say, they need help.
They "condemn themselves." But condemnation is not the problem. They need healing. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 5/15/2004 5:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Quoting from Psalm 14, Paul said, "there is none righteous, no not one." (Rom. 3:10). Is this a universally true statement? Is it really the case that no human being EVER is righteous? (except for Jesus Christ THE RIGHTEOUS, of course, who has always been the epitome of righteousness).
Enoch
Genesis 5:22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters.
23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
Job
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil
Job 1:8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.
Abel
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Noah
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Righteousness is attainable, HERE and NOW.
I like to read in scripture how righteousness was attained by men and women of faith, it helps build my faith as well. And lures me on to attain the same kind of righteousness.
What DOES NOT build my faith is the morbid, pessimistic, psychotic, fatalistic obsession with sin and failure that the manichean-calvinists drag along with them from the medieval dark ages.  | | Back to Top | | |
|
feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 5/15/2004 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | | John: Shank, in his book Elect In The Son, makes the point that Paul is using hyperpole (exaggeration) to make a point. I agree. I do not believe no one is righteous. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PhilTheThrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 5/17/2004 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
What DOES NOT build my faith is the morbid, pessimistic, psychotic, fatalistic obsession with sin and failure that the manichean-calvinists drag along with them from the medieval dark ages.
Come on now, don't hold back, tell us what you really think! 
Couldn't agree more. There is a guy in my Bible study who practically has Romans 3:10 tattooed on his body, he quotes it so much. I find his reading of it to be grossly out of context with the first chapters of Romans, which are trying to make a case that neither Jews nor Gentiles are better than each other and that all need Jesus. He's not making a sweeping explicit theological statement about all people at all times, he's using an Old Testament verse to make a point that none of us can afford to ignore Jesus.
Oh well, c'est la vie | | Back to Top | | |
|
larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 5/17/2004 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | WOW, I really got blessed by your post John as well as then the replies. As I was reading yours, I was thinking about how they use that verse on filthy rags out of context and so was really blessed to see you expound upon that. And everyone pretty much had some really good things to say. Plus I liked your sense of humor over the deal.
I was also "thrilled" Phil to read this comment you made:
Phil stated: I find his reading of it to be grossly out of context with the first chapters of Romans, which are trying to make a case that neither Jews nor Gentiles are better than each other and that all need Jesus.
That was such a great contextual reply!
I was originally taught "imputed righteousness" only. Along with anything I might do to actually be righteous was "filthy rags", and there was NOTHING I could do to be anymore righteous than Jesus made me by imputing his righteousness unto me. And I lived this for the first 10 years of my Christian life. The verse I basically had tatooed to my Chest was "I am the righteouness of God in Christ." and "As he is so am I in this world".
However the problem was I did not come to Christ as a reletivly descent human being with any morals in general. Whereas sin is imputed unto everyone, even those who have not practiced or lived in habitual sin, that was not my case. No I was a REAL sinner. For me it would have not mattered weather or not God had ever imputed sin to everyone, since I would have run out and snatched it and run off with it if he hadn't of.
Thanks be to God, that I had a love of his Word above what I was taught by the ministry I first became involved in. And eventually that Word delivered me, bringing me to repentance, deliverance and teaching me how to practice righteousness.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, and for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I learned something one day that helped me break out of the imputed righteousness only mode. One day I was led to study the breastplate of righteousness.
Eph 6:14
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness.
"breastplate" of righteousness is really not an accurate discription of what Paul is saying. When we picture it, we just picture a one sided piece of armour covering the breast. The breastplate was a cuirass, which is piece of armor covering the body from neck to waiste. It had both a back and a front piece which as usually strapped together by pieces of leather at the shoulders.
From learning this, I came to realize that our righeousness is two fold. We have that righteousness that is imputed to all of us when we first believe on Christ, that righteouness covers our behind (so to speak), while learning to practice righteousness covers our heart by helping us to be truly as he is while we are in this world. And so we need both imputed and practical righteousness to be able to grow into fully mature believers. I kind of think that people have gone on one or the other and many times lost the ballance of the two.
Anyway I really got blessed here by hearing people speak of righteousness as being something you can do, you just don't hear that too often.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/17/2004 3:12 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
You seem to go a little far in what you claim that I say when you state, "In another thread, spenlake has tried to argue that children are wicked, evil, hell-deserving sinners, based on the assertion that "there is none righteous, no not one." Is this idea borne out by the entirety of Scripture? I did some searching, and came up with the following verses, which all contradict the idea, so often advanced by Calvinists, that being human is automatically equivalent to being wicked, sinful, and deserving of hell. I would like to hear input from others. Thanks. John." I say that sinners deserve hell. I agree with Albert that for sin to be imputed, a moral choice needs to be made. For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Until we are conscious of the Law, how could we be conscious of intentionally breaking it. I believe that we sin because we want to sin, and that we act according to our nature. Until we have the ability to choose, we obviously cannot choose. What we will choose, when given the opportunity, will be according to our nature and the lusts that reside there.
What I did respond when you asked me what I thought regarding infants was, quote:
"When it comes to babies, I don't know what happens. I don't see things clear in the scriptures regarding this as to the what and the why regarding babies. I guess that I believe that God is good and that I can trust Him to care for these little ones as He sees fit, knowing that He cares.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spen Lake
I don't think that you were honest or accurate in your portrayal of my views.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/17/2004 3:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I don't think that you were honest or accurate in your portrayal of my views.
I certainly did not intend to misrepresent your views at all, spenlake. However, it seems to me that you have persistently stated that Dr. Boyd's statement in his book that he was "a good boy" when he was a little tike is untrue, for, as you proof-texted it, "there is none good but God," and "there is none righteous, no not one." If I misunderstood you, I sincerely apologize. That did seem to be your basic argument against Greggie being considered a good boy, though.
I appreciate your attempt to correct my understanding of your point of view, and judging from this most recent post of yours I think we are perhaps closer than I had previously thought based on your virulent opposition to the idea that "little Greggie was a good boy."
Could you show me how I have in the above two paragraphs misrepresented your point of view, if at all?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/17/2004 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | What do the words of Jesus mean when He says in Matthew 7:9, "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? “Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
Who does Jesus consider to "be evil?" From this text, giving a good gift would seem to be a righteous act, but would not make the one doing the action un-evil. They remain evil, even if they do a "good" act. This is consistent with the passages where Jesus states, in Luke 6:32, "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. “If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. “Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." Matthew goes farther and says, "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
I think that the verses from Luke and Matthew clearly point out that even sinners can love, lend and do good. This does nothing to change the fact that Jesus considers them sinners. They will perish in the lake of fire unless they repent and believe in His message of the gospel. Even sinners doing a righteous act is far from the standard that is demanded by God, "Be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect!" This is only achived by an alien righteousness that we grab ahold of as a gift. AS we believe in it, we will do righteous acts. We will begin a process of becoming perfect. However, the acts are merely the result of the greater happening, being clothed with the righteousness of Christ Himself.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:11 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|