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1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/13/2004 12:03 PM (GMT -6)

Jefscott - Chuckles, ya, I suppose I can wield a pen fairly well, If I take my time, which I never do, I could be more effective. I write for life and enjoyment, not a living, not yet anyway. Been posting theology since late 96, average about 20 hours per week (~3+ million words or so), but the more I get into the joy of the Lord is where I think my humor shines better.

Thanks for the note and blessing. Your contributions here have really King

been encouraging to me. Thank you much for your great bible insight.

I supposed my truck driving days helped me stay relevant to common man. You should have heard some of my CB "discussions" with some of them gear-jamming hardheaded Simp_Janitor

long-haulers, LOL, so many coffee-guzzling, foulmouthed womanizing pagans, and here I'm a water-only bible-thumping computerized conservative Christian. Lopsided match, never knew what you were going to get next.

The concept that this dispensation was delivered to Paul as new revelation that was otherwise kept secret in God is a huge bible teaching that is so terribly neglected. Thanks for helping to preach the mysteries and grace with boldness.

In the way truth and life
1Way

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/14/2004 10:42 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
1 way stated: I do not want to discuss tangents, please keep a focus on the nature of the revelation that was hidden in God and not previously revealed until it was given to Paul to give to us,

Matthew 13:11 And the disciples came and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? he answered ans said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (17) For verily I say unto you That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those tings which you see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which you hear and have not heard them.

Mark 4:11 And when he was alone, they tht were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto ou it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God (just for the sake of all those dispensationalist who try and say the kingdom of heaven in Matthew is different than the kingdom of God in Luke...hogwash) but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to others in parables, that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

mark 4:34 But without a parabel spake he not unto them: and WHEN THEY WERE ALONE HE EXPOUNDED ALL THINGS UNTO HIS DISCIPLES. (that is ALL MYSTERIES)

Luke 24:27 (after his resurrection) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded all things concerning himself.

Acts 26:22 (Paul said) having therefore obtained help of God, I continued unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying NONE OTHER THINGS THAN MOSES AND THE PROPHETS DID SAY SHOULD COME; THAT Christ should suffer and that he should be the first that hould rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, AND TO THE GENTILES.

John 1:42 And when Jesus beheld him he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas...

1 Cor 15:8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received how that Christ died for our sins according to the scripures; And that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures; And that he was seen of Cephas, (PETER) then of the twelve; After that, he was see of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greaer part remin unto htis present but some are fallen asleep. AFTER THAT, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. AND LAST OF ALL he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am LEAST of the apostles....

2 Cor 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or CEPHAS (Simon Peter the disciple who learned all the mysteries BEFORE Paul.) the world, or life or death, or things present or things to come all are yours and you are Christ's and Chris's is God's. Let a man so account of US (not Paul) as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

Where as Paul said he was the LEAST of the apostles Dispensationalism says he was THE GREATEST. And where as Paul instructed those in his time not to put one man before another, or to glory in one man above another. Dispensationalism teaching men to put Paul above all the other apostles and form his epistles into saying things they do not say. While elevating Paul to the position this side of Christ, it actually gets men to disobey the Paul it elevates.

Where as Paul says he spoken none other things than Moses and the Prophets did say should come, Dispensationalism says he did not preach out of the Law and the Prophets but received a NEW and completely special mystery gospel.

Where as Jesus said it was given unto his disciples durring his earthly ministry and after his resurrection to KNOW THE MYSTERIES of the Kingdom of God, and that he expounded all these mysteries to them, Dispensationalism says it was revealed to Paul FIRST and ONLY for the Gentiles.

Where as Dispensationalism says there are TWO Gospels one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles, Paul said it was the SAME gospel for BOTH.

Where as Dispensationalism pastes a BIG "I" to Paul's forehead, as in I,I,I,ME,ME,ME Paul himself continually states US AND WE referring not just to himself, but to ALL the APOSTLES in Christ BEFORE him, who had been shown the SAME mystery before Paul ever heard of it.

Thus the difference between the true revelation given to Paul and the false revelation given according to Dispensationalist interpretation is that Paul did not receive anything SPECIAL OR SECRET whatsoever, nor anything different than any of the other apstles.

Therefore how can you "keep a focus on the nature of the revelation that was hidden in God and not previously revealed until it was given to Paul to give to us," WHEN there is NO SUCH THING revealed or taught in all the word of God, but only in the minds of men who have corrupted the meaning of the Word of God, and gotten well meaning sincere men to believe it.

In Christ,
larris

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/14/2004 4:31 PM (GMT -6)

Larris,

quote:
Matthew 13:11 And the disciples came and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? he answered ans said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (17) For verily I say unto you That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those tings which you see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which you hear and have not heard them.

Mark 4:11 And when he was alone, they tht were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto ou it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God (just for the sake of all those dispensationalist who try and say the kingdom of heaven in Matthew is different than the kingdom of God in Luke...hogwash) but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to others in parables, that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

mark 4:34 But without a parabel spake he not unto them: and WHEN THEY WERE ALONE HE EXPOUNDED ALL THINGS UNTO HIS DISCIPLES. (that is ALL MYSTERIES)

Luke 24:27 (after his resurrection) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded all things concerning himself.

The fact that some secrets were given to the twelve/eleven does not prove in the least that other secrets weren't revealed to Paul. Your phrase, "that is ALL MYSTERIES," is pure assertion. You've proved no such thing.

quote:
Acts 26:22 (Paul said) having therefore obtained help of God, I continued unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying NONE OTHER THINGS THAN MOSES AND THE PROPHETS DID SAY SHOULD COME; THAT Christ should suffer and that he should be the first that hould rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, AND TO THE GENTILES.

It IS true that Paul's message did not contradict what things Moses and the Prophets spoke. Galatians says that the scripture FORESAW that Gentiles would be justified and reckoned as Abraham's seed. But the OT scriptures did NOT explain HOW. It is Paul that was given that revelation. Where, for example, do the OT scriptures talk of the fact that when the Spirit was given, it would fall upon Gentiles, thereby causing Christ to be IN THEM, and thus allow the Gentiles to be reckoned as THE SEED of the promise?? It is the doctrinal explanation that was GIVEN TO PAUL. It is the doctrinal explanation that Paul LAID BEFORE THE APOSTLES at the Acts 15 council. Until then, the other apostles were IGNORANT of that doctrine. That is the PLAIN reading of Galatians.

quote:
John 1:42 And when Jesus beheld him he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas...

1 Cor 15:8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received how that Christ died for our sins according to the scripures; And that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures; And that he was seen of Cephas, (PETER) then of the twelve; After that, he was see of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greaer part remin unto htis present but some are fallen asleep. AFTER THAT, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. AND LAST OF ALL he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am LEAST of the apostles....

1 Cor 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or CEPHAS (Simon Peter the disciple who learned all the mysteries BEFORE Paul.) the world, or life or death, or things present or things to come all are yours and you are Christ's and Chris's is God's. Let a man so account of US (not Paul) as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

If you compare 1 Cor. 3:4-9 with 1 Cor. 4:6, it seems more probable that the US is Paul and Apollos. The fact that Apollos, Timothy, Barnabas, and Silas could be STEWARDS of the MYSTERIES does NOT prove that those mysteries weren't revealed to PAUL FIRST.

quote:
Where as Paul said he was the LEAST of the apostles Dispensationalism says he was THE GREATEST.

First of all, Paul DOES say that he labored more than them all. So give him his due, please. Second of all, we're not saying that because he received special revelation for Gentile salvation that he was therefore GREATER in any absolute sense - just that his message has direct relevance to Gentiles.

quote:
Where as Paul says he spoken none other things than Moses and the Prophets did say should come, Dispensationalism says he did not preach out of the Law and the Prophets but received a NEW and completely special mystery gospel.

Are you honestly saying that if we trashed the NT we could infer Pauline doctrine from the OT??

quote:
Where as Jesus said it was given unto his disciples durring his earthly ministry and after his resurrection to KNOW THE MYSTERIES of the Kingdom of God, and that he expounded all these mysteries to them, Dispensationalism says it was revealed to Paul FIRST and ONLY for the Gentiles.

Nope - we don't believe ALL mysteries are IDENTICAL.

quote:
Where as Dispensationalism says there are TWO Gospels one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles, Paul said it was the SAME gospel for BOTH.

There is ONE gospel that applies to both - but there are other doctrines that applied to Jews, but not Gentiles (contrary to your wresting of Matthew 5).

quote:
Where as Dispensationalism pastes a BIG "I" to Paul's forehead, as in I,I,I,ME,ME,ME Paul himself continually states US AND WE referring not just to himself, but to ALL the APOSTLES in Christ BEFORE him, who had been shown the SAME mystery before Paul ever heard of it.

Larris, the mystery that Paul preached was taught by the Spirit; the other apostles received their mystery teachings BEFORE the Spirit had come. THAT IN AND OF ITSELF PROVES THEY'RE DIFFERENT MYSTERIES!!!!!!

wjs

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/14/2004 5:50 PM (GMT -6)

larris - You quoted me saying

quote:
1 way stated: I do not want to discuss tangents, please keep a focus on the nature of the revelation that was hidden in God and not previously revealed until it was given to Paul to give to us,

and then went about quoting previous revelation not about the dispensation of grace but about the kingdom message (Davidic kingdom prophesied to Israel). And not surprisingly, you did not account for the glaring disparity once again. Their revelation was revealed BEFORE Paul's revelation.

larris, sit down, I know probably are sitting down, but just, sit down anyway. Now listen carefully to exactly what I am about to say.

We were talking about

the revelation

that was hidden in God

and not (previously) revealed

until it was given to Paul

to give to us...

What part of the following do you still not understand and accept? Please explain your understanding of the following BIBLE PASSAGES on this subject of whether or not the revelation for this dispensation was, or was not kept secret, hidden in God until finally given specifically to Paul.

my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,

by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),

which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

a dispensation is committed to me.

kept secret since the world began Ro 16:25, Eph 3:5

now revealed Ro 3:21, Eph 3:5, Col 1:26, 2Tim 1:10

Paul, (an apostle, teacher) to the gentiles Ro 11:13, 1Tim 2:7 2Tim 1:11

Hidden teaching/wisdom 1Cor 2:7, Eph3:9, Col 1:26,

mystery revelation Ro 11:25, Ro 16:25, 1Cor 2:6-10, 4:1, 15:51, Eph 1:9-10, 3:3-9, 6:19, Col 1:26-27, 2:2, 4:3, 1Tim 3:9,

Paul is our pattern, we are to imitate, follow him Phl 3:17, 1Th 1:6, 2Th 3:7, 3:9, 1Tim 1:16, 2Tim 1:13, 3:10

dispensation given specifically to Paul Eph 3:2,7, 1Cor 9:17

circumcision and uncirc differences Gal 2:7-9, 1Co 7:17,18

In summary, the nature of the revelation is not according to other revelation, it is thus accordingly different revelation, it is not the same as other teachings elsewhere.

You keep pretending like this bible presentation has not been given to you now a dozen times. If you continue to avoid the obvious truth as revealed in scripture, I can only conclude that you are a pevish woman, unwilling to deal with basic bible teachings, nor corresponding dialogue for that matter.

We do not say he is the greatest, we say what the bible says, that he is the only apostle to the gentiles/uncircumcision, the 12 is for Israel. It's not 13 apostles, it's two different programs, one with 12 and one with 1.

You said

quote:
Where as Paul said he was the LEAST of the apostles Dispensationalism says he was THE GREATEST. And where as Paul instructed those in his time not to put one man before another, or to glory in one man above another.
Dispensationalism teaching men to put Paul above all the other apostles and form his epistles into saying things they do not say. While elevating Paul to the position this side of Christ, it actually gets men to disobey the Paul it elevates.

This is a false accusation, we say "only", you say "greater", we say we are to "follow his teachings from Christ", you say "esteem all men equally". Consider the following how God through Paul lifted up Paul over others.

quote:
1Co 1:12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come——all are yours.
1Co 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
They were teaching and thinking outside the proper bounds of scripture, as though they should follow teachings as they saw fit, not as God had instructed them through Paul.

1Co 4:14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn [you].
15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.
17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
So Paul did not agree with those under Paul's authority picking and choosing who they would follow, they had to listen to their spiritual father and stay specifically under his teachings, under his leadership.

As to the contextual rip on Acts 26:22 saying NONE OTHER THINGS THAN MOSES AND THE PROPHETS DID SAY SHOULD COME; You forgot to respectfully consider the context.

the Jews seized me in the temple and

tried to kill [me].

"Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing

Paul's going to the Jews first was VERY important to Paul, to tell them about their MESSIAH and to see about preserving his own LIFE!!! Paul always first went to the Jews to help them understand and accept the same Jesus he would preach among the Gentiles. He knew that teaching contrary to the Jews would only cause unnecessary division and strife, so of course he taught the Jesus of the OT TO THE CIRCUMCISION, that is the part of the message that is validated in both the circumcision and the uncirc, but is NOT PAUL'S APISTOLIC TERRITORY/AUTHORITY, Peter had the gospel unto them, Paul had to the gospel unto us, the gentiles/uncirc. To them he taught to remain as you were called

quote:
1Co 7:17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.

Come on, you think you know what God through Paul means when he uses the phrase circumcision and uncircumcision? This verse shows you do not. It is an undeniable teaching about the differences of the two different groups of believers. IT CAN NOT MEAN PHYSICAL circumcision, since it is IMPOSSIBLE to become UNCIRCUMCISED!!! But, you could theoretically switch from being under our covenant and dispensation and gospel, into being under theirs, but we SHOULD NOT. That is the point. If you do not understand that verse this way, it makes no sense.

Again, just because one passage says, this is "all" he taught, does not necessarily mean, that was the ONLY THING HE TAUGHT WITHOUT EXCEPTION, it's all he taught to the uninitiated circumcision, after all, PAUL HAS NEW TEACHINGS THAT IS NO WHERE ELSE TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE! So, obviously you are trying to rip Paul of authority and truth that he most certainly has and taught.

Our standing in the Body of Christ

Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed

Eph 1:13-14, 4:30 sealing of the Holy Spirit for/until the day of redemption

2Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15 new creation in Christ

Rom 4:5, Eph 2:8-9 saved by grace through faith alone, no works

see all earlier references the teachings of the dispensation of grace and mystery

etc. etc. etc.

You said

quote:
Where as Dispensationalism says there are TWO Gospels one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles, Paul said it was the SAME gospel for BOTH.

No, dipsensationalism has little to do with making gospel differentiation. There are many dispensationalist who hold to only one gospel message. It is by rightly understanding the differences of the two gospel messages that one arrives at two different gospel messages.

Paul and His teachings are unique, it is why God recorded scripture making Paul's ministry magnified, even naming his own gospel to his own people to imitate him and to be the first as a pattern unto salvation for all who would believe after him. These are bible facts, that is not man paying too much homage to Paul.

As to

quote:
Thus the difference between the true revelation given to Paul and the false revelation given according to Dispensationalist interpretation is that Paul did not receive anything SPECIAL OR SECRET whatsoever, nor anything different than any of the other apostles.

You haven't even addressed the main issue for this entire thread yet, which is the bible fact of the uniqueness of the revelation for this dispensation! That the dispensation of grace and mystery was given as a gift of God was

hidden in God
not otherwise revealed until now given to Paul and to us
entrusted only to Paul, and the only writings we are pointed to in order to understand this dispensation is that of Paul's. So for you to claim to have a handle on this is a far stretch since you seem terrified of the bible fact that the revelation for this dispensation was kept hidden in God and not revealed until given to Paul.

Don't be scared of scripture. Here's a good general rule of thumb. If scripture makes you tense or uneasy for some reason, you probably are wrong about what it means, or your presuppositions about it are somehow in error. God's word brings joy and vitality to our lives, so come on already, stop stalling, deal with the hidden revelation not otherwise revealed passages!

Well you did finally address the point head on in your last comment, you said.

quote:
Therefore how can you "keep a focus on the nature of the revelation that was hidden in God and not previously revealed until it was given to Paul to give to us," WHEN there is NO SUCH THING revealed or taught in all the word of God, but only in the minds of men who have corrupted the meaning of the Word of God, and gotten well meaning sincere men to believe it.

See the first part of this post for my first bible argument with Rom and Eph where this teaching is "revealed" and "plainly stated". I'd charge you with lying, but although I have shared these bible references with you perhaps a half a dozen times, and I have references their teachings IN JUST ABOUT EVERY SINGLE POST I WRITE IN THIS THREAD, still it is conceivable that somehow you missed them, and thus you are truly ignorant of these bible passages.

Thanks for at least finally addressing the issue, sans the (likely) misrepresentation involved.

Sorry so long, but you were gracious and shaved down your response to a doable size, so I reward your effort with all due attention. Thank you kindly for doing so.

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/14/2004 6:32 PM (GMT -6)

Jefscott - You said

quote:
The fact that some secrets were given to the twelve/eleven does not prove in the least that other secrets weren't revealed to Paul. Your phrase, "that is ALL MYSTERIES," is pure assertion. You've proved no such thing.

My response was more along the lines that the revelation of the mysteries for the kingdom has to do with ,,, the kingdom program for Israel, not body of Christ. I hope you agree, and I agree that they did receive "some" crucial revelation mostly through Paul and some through Peter, but I think the parables and the kingdom message larris references was not about that, it was stab at generally correlating the kingdom mystery teachings through a single word "mystery" while jettisoning the contextual implications and differences, so I assume my answer is a bit more specific against her false assertion, but certainly your point is just as valid.

Excellent point about the new revelation for how we would be included, I believe that without Paul's new teachings, non-Jews would have to become proselyte Jews to become part of the common wealth of Israel, partakes with them in God.

I say we say "only" apostle to us, she says we say he is a "greater" apostle, which is simply wrong. The difference is not of quality, but of kind or number.

I say one "part of the" gospel that applies to both, I thought you were a "12 out", right? Two gospel messages between the circ. and uncirc., one savior, one redemption, one justification, one atonement, etc. Just checking.

Paul's revelation for this dispensation came from the risen and ascended Jesus Christ,

the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And amen! This is a great teaching. Consider. Is it reasonable to assume that Paul did not know or understand about the most central doctrine (gospel of salvation) to those who he persecuted to the death!?! No you say, exactly! Paul certainly held matters of gospel integrity to the highest degree, yet he says plainly that his gospel message was not taught nor given to him by men/man, but instead he learned it through the revelation of Jesus! That is a powerful teaching for the new revelation of the gospel that was given to Paul. Certainly it is only reasonable to assume that his religious training would have had him discussing these things hundreds of times, if not more.

Great stuff all around. May this be our touching point, since I haven't been following your discussion with larris very closely, I hope this post proves helpful between us.

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/14/2004 6:59 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Larris, the mystery that Paul preached was taught by the Spirit; the other apostles received their mystery teachings BEFORE the Spirit had come. THAT IN AND OF ITSELF PROVES THEY'RE DIFFERENT MYSTERIES!!!!!!

I'm sorry Jeff, but that is just not true. Paul received his revelation, his teaching from the Lord Jesus Christ in person, not from a spirit, not the holy spirit, nor any other spirit. And the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT a spirit, but a real person who is alive and well at this time, just as he was when he spent personal time with Paul and told him verbatem what he wanted him to teach, in the same manner all the other apostles learned the same doctrines, same mysteries.

Paul himself clearly states this very thing.

1 Cor 15:8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received how that Christ died for our sins according to the scripures; And that he was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures; And that he was seen of Cephas, (PETER) then of the twelve; After that, he was see of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greaer part remin unto this present but some are fallen asleep. AFTER THAT, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. AND LAST OF ALL he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am LEAST of the apostles....

Acts 9:6 And Jesus (NOT A SPIRIT) said to Paul: Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (16) for I (me myself and I NOT a spirit) will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. (22:10)And the LORD SAID Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. (9:15) And the Lord said to Anania about Paul; He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before te Gentiles and Kings AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL: for I (that is ME JESUS) will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. (18:9) Then spake THE LORD (NOT a spirit) to Paul in the night by a vision, BE not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: for I AM WITH THEE, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. (18) And I saw him saying unto me, "Make haste and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. (21) Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, tht the gospel which WAS preached of me (showing that this letter he is writing was not a special secret gospel, but that he had previously taught them the gospel written later by Luke and Mark who traveled with him.)...the gospel which was (past tense) preached of me is not after man (and neither was the gospel the other apostels received from Jesus.) For I neither receieved it of man, neither was I taught it (by any man) but by the revelation of JESUS CHRSIT.

REVELATION the Greek word apokalupsis when used of persons means APPEARING, MANIFESTATION.

"But I certify you brethren that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. for I neither received it by man, neither was I taught it but by the APPEARING AND MANIFESTATION of JESUS CHRIST."

WHO if you remember also SPOKE to him, and TOLD him what he was going to have him do. Since Jesus had no problem telling his disciples before he was died what he wanted them to teach, and then told those same disciples after he rose from the dead what he wanted them to teach, then why would he all of a sudden change horses in the middle of the stream? Is there some mysterious reason WHY Jesus could not appear to Paul as Paul said he did many times and just tell him verbatem what he would be preaching?

Jesus told his disciples before he ever died and rose again, that he would manifest himself to them and not to the world. They all saw him many times while those out in the world never did, and were still expected to believe on him just by what they told them. Paul was specifically chosen for the purpose of speaking the same gospel, in regards to those who would come after him who would be just as deceived as he had been as to the REAL JESUS and the REAL GOSPEL. He was a pattern of mercy you might say, for those who would come along saying how much they believed in God and in the messiah and yet were sincerely zealous but in reality deceived and did not know the truth. Pauls' life is an example that even if you are believing and preaching something false, God can and will forgive you once you realize it and come to your senses.

I am thankful that God showed me this same mercy and that I was able to recover myself out of the snares of dispensational teachiing. Believing as I did, just as you in a special mystery gospel given only to Paul. When I look back now, I am just amazed at how zealous I was, how much I was so convinced that what I believed was the absolute truth. However it took me a very long time to see this, it did not happen over night, and I do not expect you to believe me one way or the other. To tell you the truth, in remembering how utterly convinced I was that this lie was the truth, I am shocked at all I ever escaped from it. The only thing I can say is that I had a driving desire stronger than anything else in life for the truth as well as a great love for it regardless of what it may have happened to be. In that I believe that God had mercy on me, and allowed me to come out of the deception I held firmly to for 10 years.

You are probably just getting angry at what I say. But I will tell you that it is not just one aspect of Dispensationalism that leads us to believe it, but many slight deceptions introduced into our minds over time. And there is definately a spirit behind it, howbeit not the holy spirit, but you also have the holy spirit, but if you do not pay attention to the literal words of Jesus Christ that he taught in the gospels, the holy spirit cannot help you come to a knowledge of the truth. For it is his job to only bring those things to your remembrance as you put them in your mind and seek to do as the Lord commmands us.

1way is alwasy saying "they make things the same that are different." He is right, but he is wrong in that the "they" that do this are people like myself. For that is one of the major methods of deception, which is abundantly practiced in Dispensatinal teaching. Working as it dose both ways, by making things the same that are different and making things different that are the same. As in the examples I gave of the term Israel and that of the usage of the word "circumcision", and now here again I see it's ugly head rise with the word "REVELATION".

For in using the term "revelation" you are taking it as I was originally taught it to mean, that Paul received his "special" gospel by "revelation" in that he received it by "the spirit". When in fact in that instance the usage of the word is refering to a PERSON not a truth or a fact. For the word is used in two different senses depending on what is being spoken of and of the situation. Hence they ahve taken and made the two types of revelation the SAME, by not realizeing that Jesus taught that he would in fact REVEAL himself to his apostles IN PERSON and first tell them all he wanted them to know. And that then once he had told them IN PERSON face to face mouth to mouth the gospel, that THEN they would receive the holy spirit, that would bring all things whatsoever he had said unto them to their remembrance, and show them things to come.

That is why those who are misled into believing a false gospel based on twising Pauls letters around to make them say something they do not say, and teach that the gospels are not written for the Gentiles ALSO, will actually keep those who follow it from knowing the truth of those things to come. Hence they will be prime targets for the last endtime deception of the antichrist, the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY. In fact making Paul's gospels into a "mystery" all thier own is the main part of the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY, which many who do not receive a love of the truth will follow.

quote]1way states: So we see that Paul is the only one that was specifically given the trust over delivering to us the dispensation that we currently live in. That is a very foundational and comprehensive teaching, despite it's obscurity among the saints.

Paul himself did not say it was “obscure among the saints”.

5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed BY THE SPIRIT TO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS.

But you don’t emphasize that in red underline bold letters, because when you are indoctrinated into dispensational teaching, you are blinded to those words, and your mind is souly directed to sentences of Paul taken out of context, to form them into something he was not really saying.

For instance another set of words that you do not underline in bold red are:

(as I have briefly written already,)

which directs us back to what he just said, which was:

For through him (Jesus not Paul) we both (both Jews and Gentiles) have access by ONE SPIRIT (one faith, one baptism, one Lord, one God, not TWO one for the Jews and another for the Gentiles.) unto the Father. Now therefore you are not more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God (the Jews); and are built upon the foundation of apostles (plural not just Paul) and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. In whom all the building fitly framed together grows into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom ye are also builded together (as Jews and Gentiles) for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

And what did he say immediately preceeding this?

Wherefore remember that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having nor hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made night by the blood of Christ. For he is OUR (both Jew and Gentile) peace, who has broken down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself OF TWAIN ONE NEW MAN, so making peace. AND that he might reconcile BOTH (Jew and Gentile) unto God by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby. And came (when he came, past tense) and preached peace to you which were far off (preached to the Gentiles in his earthly ministry) and to them that were nigh (to the Jews those of the circumcision.) For through him WE BOTH HAVE ACCESS BY ONE SPIRIT.

See here is the BIG LIE, that all dispensational theology hinges upon. Which is that Jesus only came and preached to the JEWS. Even in Churches that do not espouse to teach Dispensational theology this is taught. YET FROM THE GET GO Jesus was right out there preaching to the Gentiles FROM DAY ONE!

And these corrupters have gotten people to believe this garbage by isolating verses or sentences of text out of context and then making a “statement” which lodges like a pick axe in the brain. I give the following as an example, since it commonly taught.

HOW THEY GET YOU TO THINK JESUS ONLY CAME TO THE JEWS IN HIS EARTHLY MINISTRY.

quote:
Romans says that Jesus Christ was a minister to the circumcision.

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of [to] the circumcision....

I do not belong to the circumcision, and neither do you if you are born again of God’s spirit; for if we are born again of God’s Spirit, we belong to the Church of God in which there is neither Judean nor Gentile. Jesus did not come to start the Church on the day of Pentecost: Jesus Christ came as a minister to the circumcision. He was the completion of the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, in the Old Testament.

The quote above is a basic teaching in dispensational theology. To those sitting there listening to this it seems to make sense and they accept it. BUT it’s an all out and out LIE.
Notice at the end of the verse given the four ....,That means they are leaving something OUT. And what are they leaveing OUT? They are leaving out the next thing Paul says that blows their FALSE STATEMENT to the pits of hell!

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of [to] the circumcision....to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, AND.....

AND... SOMETHING....AND WHAT????????

.....AND THAT THE GENTILES might glorify God for his mercy, as it is written For this cause I will confess thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice ye Gentiles, WITH HIS PEOPLE. And again, Praise the Lord ALL ye GENTILES: and laud him all ye people. AND AGAIN Isaiah saith There shall be a root of Jesse and he that shall rise to reign over the GENTILES in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Not only overt dispensationalism, but also dispensationalism minus it’s “ title” has been creeping into the Churches for the last century. So that even those Churches that claim not to follow dispensational teaching have accepted many of the dispensational statements like above, leading them to believe that Jesus ministry began only to the Jews. WHEN IN TRUTH Jesus himself preached to the Gentiles FROM THE GET GO.

Look at this;

Matthew 4:15 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed unto Galilee, and leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the border of Zabulun and Naphtali, that it might be fulfilled that which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying The land of Zebulun, and the Land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, GALILEE OF THE GENTILES.

Funny that Jesus would go to the main center of the Gentile population, if his ministry was directly and only to the circumcision. Galilee hadn’t been the land of Naphtali or Zebulun for over 500 years, ever since the King of Assryia had conquered the 10 northern tribes and deported them.

When the parents of Jesus took him to be presented to the Lord in the temple Simeon just a certain devout man of the Lord came was instructed to go to the temple, to see the child and prophecy over him. Notice what he says.

Luke 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have see they salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of ALL PEOPLE; A LIGHT TO LIGHTEN THE GENTILES, AND THE GLORY OF THY PEOPLE ISRAEL.

Everything Jesus did during his earthly ministry with his disciples was to wedge their mind off their belief that the Gentiles were lower than they were. Multitudes of Gentiles followed him and he healed them and preached the gospel to them. His ministry to the Gentiles began as soon as he was rejected in Nazareth and it is revealed in his teaching to them there. THIS IS SO GREAT, you just have to see this.

Immediately after his temptation when his ministry began.
Luke 4:12 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season. And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee (of the GENTILES) and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of ALL (both Jews and Gentiles in that region far away from the main center of worship where they looked down on those in Galilee.)

And he came to Nazareth where he had been brought up: and as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he has sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began to say to them, THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS.

And all bear him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Josephs’ son?

And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyslef. whasoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in HIS OWN COUNTRY. But I tell you of a truth....

He is now about to begin to reveal the MYSTERY written in the scriptures, but not understood until here at the beginning of his ministry he starts to reveal it, that the Gentiles would be partakers of the SAME promises as the Jews, and that his ministry was just as much to the Gentiles as to the Jews.

BUT I TELL YOU OF A TRUTH, many widows were IN ISRAEL in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; BUT TO NONE OF THEM was Elijah sent, save unto Sarepta a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

AND many lepers were IN ISRAEL in the time of Elisha the prophet; AND NONE OF THEM was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

(In other words the Gentiles have pretty much ALWAYS had more faith than God’s people ISRAEL. And in other words, he is sent to the GENTILES to preach the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of salvation to the GENTILES. And what did they do when they heard this, because unlike us they understood exactly what he was saying.)

And all they in the synagogue when they HEARD THESE THINGS, were filled with wrath, and rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the mist of them went his way.

Whoa, they didn’t like that one bit, because they were BIGOTED and predudice against all other ethnic groups. In fact nobody in the world at that time, was quite as racist as the Jews. They thought that simply because they were descendants of Abraham, that this intitled them to salvation and all the benifits of the promises made to him, simply because of who they were not WHAT they were. In otherwords they were the first ones to believe once saved always saved simply on the side of physical geneology, whereas many Christians today think the same thing because of “spiritual” geneology. BOTH are in gross error. In other words the most religious Jews of the time, who were always at Church, always reading and studying the Torah, were the most stiff necked God rejecting bigoted snobs there were.

Jesus continued traveling around and preaching in the synagogues and getting rejected by his own. However as he was preaching the Gentiles were LISTENING and they were believing, along with those Jews who were also considered of the LOWER CLASS, what the upper etchilon of religious Jews looked down upon as “Jewish TRASH”.

This is why you find Christ constantly using the terms WHOSOEVER and ANY MAN, because his ministry was NOT just to the Jews, it was to the Gentiles EQUALLY.

Matt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

Oh, here’s one they didn’t like.
12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven

20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant.

23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

18:8 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation

1 Cor. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:19 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

3:4 Whosoever committeth (habitually practices) sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

3:6 Whosoever abideth in him (in his word) sinneth not (dose not habitually practice sin of any kind.) : whosoever sinneth (habitually practices sin of any kind) hath not seen him, neither known him.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (habitually practice) sin; for his seed (his WORD, the word is the seed) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (The parable of the seed and the sower. If you do not understand this parable how shall you understand all parables, or “mysteries”.)

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding (remaining) in him.

5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God (because the gospel and commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ, his words abide in him) sinneth not (dose not habitually practice sin of any kind.) ; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself (in his Words), and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Rev. 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a LIE.

22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (Jesus is the door NOT PAUL.)

12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have (past tense) spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

If he should not call any man common or unclean then what? Then WHOSOEVER and if ANY MAN as Jesus preached just finally dawned on him. Peter had just been let in on a great big mystery, that is all those saying regarding the Gentiles in the Law and the Prophets that no one really understood, till Jesus preached his gospel and opened their eyes to the scriptures.

1 Cor. 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (BUT they sure try and lay another foundation on Paul receiving some secret mystery gospel.)
Now

IF ANY MAN may build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

IF ANY MAN’S work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

IF ANY MAN’S work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Know ye not that ye (both Jews and Gentiles) are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

IF ANY MAN any man defile the temple of God, (by introducing ANOTHER JESUS and ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER SPIRIT into that temple by a false gospel based on Paul’s letters.) him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

You know the stuff we are speaking of on these message boards is not just some cute little egotistical debate or “discussion”, it’s a matter of life and death the Lie and the Truth, heaven or hell. You don’t just believe any old thing you want and then get away with it. You and I will all be judged by the very words Christ spoke. Now along come a group that says Paul received a NEW Gospel a SECRET Gospel that was ONLY to the Gentiles. And they say that you are like in this time period that is a “parenthsis” and nothing really appies to you except a few of Paul’s letters. Or now they are turning it around the other way and saying Paul’s letter were not even written as applicable to the Jews. Where as Paul said he was a debtor both to the JEWS and to the GENTILES and that IN CHRIST, they were both one NEW MAN.

You see friends how that just as the Jews tried to cut the Gentiles out of the promises, so also now the Gentiles have cut the Jews out of the promises, and how the fulfilment of the mystery of iniquity is at the very doors. For they have both now almost all become completely unprofitable, that is none, not Jew nor Gentile that seeks after the truth, they are ALL gone out of the way, there is NONE that truly seeks after God NO NOT ONE. Yes it’s getting pretty close to that time now. Not that there are not those who do seek the Lord, but the harlot the Gentile Church has many more children than Jerusalem which is the rightful mother of us all both Jew and Gentile.

1 Cor. 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

John 14: If a man (ANY MAN) love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

How can you ever keep the sayings of Jesus proving you love him and his Father if you teach that those sayings were not spoken to EVERY MAN, and that they do not apply to EVERY MAN???? The answer is YOU CAN NOT!

As an after thought here, another place people make a major mistake is regarding exactly what the spirit is? For Jesus said in John "The WORDS that I speak unto you they are SPIRIT and they are life." Therefore in a sence the mystery was revealed unto Paul by "the spirit" in that he came to know and understand the WORDS of the Lord Jesus Christ, that we now have written in what are called "THE GOSPELS". When you learn and understand and DO those words, those sayings those commandments, you become his disciple and you know the truth. Part of that truth was the mystery that the Gentiles would be on completely equal footing with the Jews. But another part of that mystery was the the Jews would be on completely equal footing with the Gentiles. That's something to think about.

In Christ,
larris

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/14/2004 7:12 PM (GMT -6)

Larris - There you go again, posting 1600 words that NO ONE IS ARGUING ABOUT. You just filled about three posts worth of text for no good reason. The following is a complete waste of space. We do not say His ministry was ONLY to the Jews, it was to the Jews FIRST and then His plan included reaching the Gentiles through them. I think I can now say with full assurance that you were never even taught dispensational truth, let alone was a dispensationalist, you only get it wrong on a constant basis. Plus, many of your verses do not even directly apply to this issue. Can't you get anything right about what dispensationalism certainly teaches?

quote:
This is why you find Christ constantly using the terms WHOSOEVER and ANY MAN, because his ministry was NOT just to the Jews, it was to the Gentiles EQUALLY.

Matt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

Oh, here’s one they didn’t like.
12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven

20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant.

23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

18:8 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation

1 Cor. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:19 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

3:4 Whosoever committeth (habitually practices) sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

3:6 Whosoever abideth in him (in his word) sinneth not (dose not habitually practice sin of any kind.) : whosoever sinneth (habitually practices sin of any kind) hath not seen him, neither known him.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (habitually practice) sin; for his seed (his WORD, the word is the seed) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (The parable of the seed and the sower. If you do not understand this parable how shall you understand all parables, or “mysteries”.)

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding (remaining) in him.

5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God (because the gospel and commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ, his words abide in him) sinneth not (dose not habitually practice sin of any kind.) ; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself (in his Words), and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Rev. 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a LIE.

22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (Jesus is the door NOT PAUL.)

12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have (past tense) spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

What a deal.

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/14/2004 8:49 PM (GMT -6)

1way, after quoting 1Cor. 7:17 states:

Come on, you think you know what God through Paul means when he uses the phrase circumcision and uncircumcision? This verse shows you do not. It is an undeniable teaching about the differences of the two different groups of believers. IT CAN NOT MEAN PHYSICAL circumcision, since it is IMPOSSIBLE to become UNCIRCUMCISED!!!

Please read the following and I think it will clear up the confusion, that you still seem to have regarding this aspect of the Bible.

MEDICAL TIMES, Volume 93, Number 6: Pages 588-593,
June 1965.
UNCIRCUMCISION by Leonard Tushmet

Not even the most vigorous opponent of routine circumcision in the male have proposed the restoration of the prepuce, once it has been removed. Attempts at uncircumcision have been made, NEVERTHELESS, since at least the second century before Christ, although not on hygienic or medical grounds. Uncircumcision has appeared as a result of social and political pressures on the Jews, the most widespread group practicing ritual circumcision. (ouch!)

The Hellenistic Period
The rapid spread of Greek culture and customs following the conquests of Alexander did not leave the Jewish nation in Palestine untouched. The Hellenized Jews adopted not only the Greek style of dress but also their methods of training the young and their interest in athletic games. Public nakedness became a commonplace throughout Judea; in Jerusalem itself baths and gymnasia were erected within sight of the Holy Temple, (to the horror of the followers of the law of Moses). The Hellenizers, in their desire to destroy all evidence of their barbarian origin (in the Greek sense of the word), tried to destroy the evidence of the Covenant of Abraham. Circumcision was not then standardized: the Oral tradition was ambitious, and frequently a large fragment of the prepuce was left behind. The Hellenizers pulled this fragment forward, manually, stretched it, and even applied blistering agents thereto, in order to make it cover the glans. Josephus says:

". . . they hid the circumcision of their genitals so that even when naked they might appear as Greeks." 1

I Maccabees 1:11, on which Josephus elaborated, merely says, "they made themselves uncircumcised." Dr. Solomon Zeitlin, the noted Jewish historian, in a comment on another such statement by Josephus says:

"they hid the fact of circumcision by drawing forward the prepuce so that they resembled the Hellenes." 2
The practice became widespread enough to be noted by the author of the apocryphal Book of Jubilees, in 15: 26-27:

"God's anger will be kindled against the children of the covenant if they make the members of their bodies appear like those of the Gentiles, and they will be expelled and exterminated from the earth."
One of the causes given by the later Rabbis for the destruction of the Temple is the practice of uncircumcision:

" 'The hallowed flesh is passed from thee'--that is, they attempted to hide their circumcisions." 3
The Roman Period
Following the successful revolt of the Jews against Antiochus Epiphanes and the establishment of the Hasmonean Dynasty in 141 B.C., the practice of uncircumcision disappeared in Judea. The Romans, who soon became the overlords of the province, were initially as unconcerned with the Jewish religion as with that of any other subject people. They regarded circumcision as an interesting and amusing custom, less harmful than the self-castration of the Cybelean priests. Not quite three centuries later, however, circumcision was prohibited by the Emperor Hadrian, and uncircumcision again became practiced, this time, encouraged by the growing sect of Christians.

The stiff-necked opposition of the Jews to the introduction of the Roman eagles and the altars to the God-Emperors in their holy places, their Messianic ideas, the repeated uprisings of the Zealots, all eventually culminated in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and the dispersion of the Jews. As in the Greek period, there was a strong tendency to assimilation on the part of the exiled Jews. They wanted to take advantage of the luxuries of Rome and they also wanted to avoid the payment of the onerous "Fiscus Judaicus," a tax levied against every Jewish male. Some devices were already at hand and others could be converted to hide the circumcised penis. Comic actors wore a special sheath over the penis even in the bath, "to protect the voice," it was believed; Jews began to use the same sheath. They also invented the "Pondus Judaeus," a bronze sheath worn so as to pull on the skin of the preputial fragment to make it recover the glans. 4

The assimilationists were not the only group of Jews who found circumcision burdensome. The Apostle Peter (decried circumcision as "a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear." The insistence of some early Christians on "circumcision after the manner of Moses" (Acts 15:1) was a stumbling block to the conversion of the Gentiles. The persecution of the Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah by their more orthodox coreligionists led finally to the great schism, when the Christian Jews finally turned to the Gentile world for their proselytes. In the process, circumcision, as well as the distinction between clean and unclean foods, and then the rest of the Law went by the board. It is likely that some early Christians attempted to do away with the signs of the circumcision, as witness the Apostle Paul, in I Corinthinians 7: 18:

"Is any called being circumcised? Let him not be uncircumcised. Is any called being uncircumcised, let him not be circumcised."
This passage has been sometimes construed as being purely allegorical, but the fact remains that the question of circumcision for converts concerned a physical process, not a spiritual one, as the history of the Early Church shows. 5

Against both the assimilationists and the schismatics a reaction developed, especially after the loss of Jerusalem as the Holy City and the growth of the Rabbinic academies. The Tannaim, the Rabbis who first committed the Oral Tradition to writing as the Mishnah, set themselves the task of rebuilding a religious base for Judaism by making the Law "a fence around Israel." About 140 A.D., they finally standardized the technique of circumcision, effectively eliminating the previously used methods of uncircumcision. In Shabbat 19: 6, we read:

"These shreds (of the foreskin) include flesh that covers the greater part of the corona . . .: if he waxes fat (and the corona is covered anew) . . . or if one is circumcised without having the inner lining torn, it is as though he had not been circumcised."
To obviate the leaving of excessive preputial tissue, the per'iah was instituted. After the excision of the foreskin the mohel was instructed to seize the inner lining of the prepuce still covering the glans and with thumbnail and index finger of each hand to tear it so the he can roll it fully back over the glans and completely expose the latter.

There is no evidence that any other method was used since that standardization of the operation. The Inquisitor was in error when he said

"It is to be noted here that the Jews operate differently on their own children and on Christians, children or adults. To circumcise Christians, adults or minors, they do not cut the prepuce all around, as they do to their own children born in Judaism, but merely make semi-circular resection." 6
Modern Times
From then until the very recent past there is no evidence of attempts at uncircumcision amongst the Jews. The plight of the Jews under the Hitler terrer, however, made uncircumcision no longer a question of social conformity but a matter of life and death. Escape from the Ghettos set up by the Germans in Poland was difficult but possible. On the "Aryan side," life for the Jews remained dangerous. No matter how "good" the visage nor how well-forged the Kennkarte, (identification documents), the male Jew carried with him incontrovertible proof of his origin.

The blackmailers and the extortionists know as schmaltzovniks (from the Polish word "szmalec," meaning "fat") used the circumcision as the criterion of Jewishness. Bernard Goldstein, a Bundist leader who lived on the "Aryan side," describes their activities vividly:

"These scum would approach their victims with the words, 'Hand over your fat.' They were a terrible plague upon the Jews who lived on the Aryan side. In addition to the Gestapo, SS men, and others who hunted them relentlessly, the Jews lived in constant danger from these dregs of Polish morality, who made a business of Jewish lives. Hundreds were engaged in this hateful occupation--searching out the unfortunates who now lived under the protection of Gentiles . . . Jews who had nothing and were not profitable were handed over to the Nazis. Others had to pay monthly blackmail. When they finally had nothing left for the blood tax, they were handed over to their fate . . . They operated in gangs . . . They would pull their victim into a doorway or alley and rip open his trousers, looking for the fateful sign . . . 7
Even Christians became their victims. 8 Respectable Poles, when asked to expose themselves, tried to give the hooliganswho surrounded them money to avoid the disgrace; such actions merely incited their tormentors further; they tore open their trousers and finding an intact prepuce, beat up their hapless prey in their chagrin. Those Catholics who took Jewish children into convents and orphan asylums also feared the schmaltzovniks.

"They sent back Dr. E. Ringelblum's son (who had a good visage--i.e., he didn't look Jewish) because they feared to keep circumcised boys." 9
After the mass deportations from the Ghettos to extermination, the Gestapo continued its job of rooting out Jews in the towns and villages where they might be hiding.

"One day the Gestapo raided the villa. Tolla and her husbanh were discovered: their appearance and their documents were of no avail. The beasts examined her husband physically, discovered he was a Jew, and immediately shot both of them." 10
Through illegal sources, Jews could sometimes obtain documents, stating that circumcision had been performed because of phimosis resulting from a chancre or infection secondary to venereal disease. Obviously such documents were valueless for children, as well as repugnant to many adults. Furthermore, although such papers might convince the laymen, they were regarded with great skepticism by the German doctors. The latter prided themselves on their skin in distingiushing between circumcisions performed in infancy (and hence ritual) and those done in adult life. 11

Ingenious surgeons devised methods of reforming the prepuce to answer demands for such operations.

"There was at least one doctor who, for tremendous sums, performed plastic operations to restore the appearance of a foreskin. The operation was extremely dangerous, but some were desperate enough to try it." 12
The famous actor, Jonas Turkow, describes what happened to his nephew: Before placing the boy with Christians, his sister-in-law had to arrange for an operation to wipe out the sign of his Jewish origin.

"She had already come to an agreement with a certain Dr. G----------, former major in the Polish Army. I knew this individual well from the Warsaw Ghetto . . . He had now become a go-between for the surgeons who dd these operations and the Jews who wanted the operations. Tens of thousands of Jews had already had these operations. Several doctors on the Aryan side made a good living from this ...Major G--------- asked for this operation large sums of money which he split with the surgeon . . . The fee had to paid in advance . . . A few days after the operation, it appeared that it had been unsuccessful . . ." 13
The same sum was demanded for another operation. It was done by another doctor,

". . . in a meadow because the doctor didn't want to work in his house. The second operation was also unsuccessful. Yurek became very sick after this operation . . ."
Techniques of uncircumcision
The earliest description of uncircumcision is given by Celsus in Book VII, Chapter 25, of De Medicina:

"The prepuce is to be raised from the underlying penis around the circumference of the glans by means of a scapel. This is not very painful, or once margin has been freed it can be stripped up by hand as far back as the pubes, nor in so doing is there any bleeding. The prepuce thus freed is again stretched forward beyond the glans; next cold water applications are freely used, and a plaster is applied around to repress severe inflammation. And for the following days the patient is to fast until nearly overcome by hunder lest satiety excite that part. When the inflammation has ceased the penis should be bandaged from the pubes to the corona; over the glans the plaster is applied with the other end of the probe. This is done in order that the proximal part may aglutinate whilst the distal part heals without adhering." 14
This operation was not only very painful and exposed the patient to danger because of the rules of anesthesia and asepsis, but it failed in a large number of cases.

As scarring took place, the skin covering the glans retracted slowly and finally the circumcision reappeared. 15

At a later period, Paulus Aeginate, in Chapter 53 of his Surgery, say of uncircumcision:

"Two kinds of operation have been described. Sometimes one cuts the skin circularly at the proxima edge of the organ, and, after separating the edges, the lower part is pulled forward to cover the glans. Other times one dissects with a bistoury the area just proximal to the corona, then one draws it distally, interposes a small piece of linen so that no adhesions form, and then covers the entire area with fine linen. Antyllus prefers this method and has advocated it for a long time . . ." 16
In modern times, the only published description of such an operation is a single case report from the 1890's. Because of a misunderstanding the prepuce was removed. The violent objections of the patient led the surgeon to replace it immediately, suturing it to the original site. Cicatricial contraction followed, but the cosmetic effect was good. 17

A search of the literature since 1945, particularly the Polish, has failed to find description of the techniques used by the Polish surgeons. From information from lay sources I have been able to learn that three methods were used, depending on the age of the patient, the mobility of the post-coronal skin, and the skill of the surgeon.

The first, and crudest, technique was to pull forward the skin from behind the corona, scarify the edges roughly, and suture the scarified edges together with non-absorbable suture to create an artificial phimosis. Post-operative swelling was common and infection frequent. If infection lead to scarring, the operation was successful; if however, as often happened, the sutures were extruded, the skin promptly retracted from the covered glans.

The second method was a variation of that described by Celsus. After using local anesthetic solution sufficient to distend the loose skin behind the glans, the surgeon made a circular incision. By blunt dissection he separated the anterior and posterior portions from the underlying tissue. He then pulled forward the posterior part over the head of the glans. With absorbable suture the anterior portion was now fixed to the adjacent raw undersurface of the posterior (but now, upper) part. The tip of the remainder of the posterior portion, which now covered the glans, was narrowed by a circular suture so that retraction did not take place. The whole penis was then wrapped in layers of gauze. If infection did not supervene, this operation was quite satisfactory from a cosmetic point of view. If there was inflammation not responding to simple measures, multiple incision were made, allowing the release of accumulated serum, blood, or pus; the resultant scars sometimes caused irregular retraction of the new prepuce but seldom to the degree that it could be said that the patient had been ritually circumcised.

The third method was very elaborate (and correspondingly expensive, although no more effective. Two laymen, with an understandable passion for anonymity, on whom this type of operation was done (by the same doctor) have described the technique to the best of their ability: The entire operation was done under local anesthesia. The preputial area was infiltrated. A circular incision was made and the edges of the wound separated. Bleeding was controlled by pressure with a "rag" (gauze sponge?) by the patient. An area over the iliac crest was infiltrated and a long oblong band excised. This strip of tissue was placed in a glass of solution (type?) while the surgeon covered the wound at the iliac crest with greased (petrolatum?) gauze. He then took the strip of skin and sutured the long edges to the anterior and posterior edges of the penile incision; the narrow edges of the strip were sutured together at the inferior surface of the penis at the frenulum. The anterior line was covered with oil (?). The anterior line of the bulging skin graft was then pushed back so that it became the inner surface of an artificial prepuce. The posterior line of incision was also covered with oil and a firm circular bandange applied. The patient was instructed to keep the iliac crest area dry for three days then wash it daily. The bandage over the penile wound was not to be touched for three days, then carefully unwound and replaced daily until all redness had disappeared at the site of the wound. A foul discharge occurred, both patients said, from the inside of the new prepuce, but they were afraid to push it back and wash the area lest they undo the operation. The wounds healed completely ("but with rough edges") in about two weeks.

Conclusion
No better final comment can be made than that of Doctor Joseph Tenebaum:

"Circumcision certainly proved a boon for the Nazis. Jews could dye their hair, assume an Aryan flair and learn to chant Catholic hymns, but they could not hide the mark of the covenant . . . being a surgeon myself, my professional curiousity made me interview dozens of doctors and examine the end results of these operations. The latter were either unsatisfactory or mutilating. One of the physicians, who himself underwent several plastic operations to undo the irreparable, said to me in great bitterness: "Jews have had all kinds of international conferences, from Zionist congresses to Esperanto conventions, but though Jewish doctors, starting with Professor Israel in Berlin and Zuckerkandel in Vienna, were pioneers in the speciality of urology, not one Urological Congress was called for the purpose of standardizing the circumcision repair technique.' He now had an obsession to call a congress of Jewish urologists for the purpose of devising a proper operative procedure to safeguard the children of Israel from the circumcision hounds of a future Hitler."

Hi there, me again,
Hey, I don't know about you, but it always FEELS GOOD to me, to brush up on some of that old history. Knife

In Christ,
larris

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/14/2004 10:15 PM (GMT -6)

larris - Man I tell you, talk about reaching, you are one devoted anti-oikonomia-ist.

That clarifies very little. Even by this article, there is no known standardized or successful practice of becoming uncircumcised like there is being circumcised. Not since 1965 that is, and I greatly doubt that when Paul wrote 1Cor, that he had in mind the apparently virtually impossible operation of putting skin back on to such a sensitive area. Also, back to the point, God's use does not lend the idea of a physical verses dispensational and/or covenantal considerations.

Consider the bible on this.

quote:
1Co 7:17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.

It's about God's calling and walking according to that calling, keeping God's commandments. It's primarily a way of faith in God, not a physical operation issue.

But I am interested, how is it that you so quickly came up with such an extensive and detailed article, and why not publish the footnote references?

Word count on this post alone, not including the quote = 3119. Ouch!

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/15/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
1way, larris - Man I tell you, talk about reaching, you are one devoted anti-oikonomia-ist.

I am absolutely NOT a devoted "anti-oikonimia-ist", I am ANTI-Dispensational theology and hermeneutics. Dispensational theology gives a corrupted meaning of the Greek word "oikonimia" as well as the words "dispensation and administration". Making it as they do into a special secret gospel, to a special secret time which is why you keep calling it "our dispensation". Hence our gospel, for our time that was kept secret and not revealed unto given to Paul, which is a complete falicy, and is really "the mystery of iniquity" spoken of by Paul, and Peter.

2 Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquitey doth already work:

The mystery of iniquitey was a twisting of the original gospel given to Peter the other apostles and the same one given to Paul.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

The TWISTING of Paul letters along with the other scriptures was the beginning of the "mystery of iniquitey" that started back then and is continuing up to our time, in which Dispensational hermeneutics and interpretatin is the ultimate outcome producing in the end the following at the end of the age before Christ comes.

2 Thes. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity (this deception and total twisting of the meaning of the original gospel.) doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (still looking for that secret rapture among other false things.)

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, (NOT the special secret gospel they have turned Paul's letters into.) to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The thing is I accepted and believed the false gospel of Dispensatinalisum because I was innocent and ignorant of the scriptures and easily led by false statements regarding what the Bible was saying. That is they way anyone who believes it, is indoctrinated into it.

When I accepted it, there was NO MAN around at the time to even tell me that this was not the view that everyone held, and since every Christian I knew at the time espoused the same thing, I read it INTO the scriptures for years. I am here to say, that Paul DID NOT receive any special secret revelation that none of the other apostles knew, and that this can only "seem" to be proved by taking verese of scriptures totoally out of context and twisting historical events.

I am also here to say that the consiquences of such are much greater than just a personal "choice", but that what we believe about such will ultimately determine or very eternal life itself. Therefore I would strongly WARN anyone tempted to believe what either of you teach, to take MUCH TIME in studying the scriptures in context before just falling into this diabolical method of interpretation, which will continue to develope until it produces the final total turning away from everything Christ taught regarding his return and his gospel.

The reason dispensationalist are so HUNG UP on THE MYSTERY as they call it, is because it is THE MYSTERY of Iniquity that the apostles fortold would ultimatly lead to apostsy from Christ.

In Christ,
larris

The foot notes can easily be found right along with the entire article at http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/tushmet1/

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/15/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6)

1WAY,

quote:
The fact that some secrets were given to the twelve/eleven does not prove in the least that other secrets weren't revealed to Paul. Your phrase, "that is ALL MYSTERIES," is pure assertion. You've proved no such thing.
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My response was more along the lines that the revelation of the mysteries for the kingdom has to do with ,,, the kingdom program for Israel, not body of Christ. I hope you agree, and I agree that they did receive "some" crucial revelation mostly through Paul and some through Peter, but I think the parables and the kingdom message larris references was not about that, it was stab at generally correlating the kingdom mystery teachings through a single word "mystery" while jettisoning the contextual implications and differences, so I assume my answer is a bit more specific against her false assertion, but certainly your point is just as valid.

I agree with you, but I thought my point about Paul's mystery being taught by the Spirit would argue decisively for the difference. Larris seems to think that because the mystery was revealed to Paul by Christ that it was NOT revealed BY the Spirit. The text says otherwise, and the 12 did NOT have the Spirit when they were taught the Kingdom mysteries.

I'm assuming at this point that Larris is not trying to have an honest debate with us - rather, she's writing one dissertation after another for other readers of the posts. She has not refuted one point that I've bothered to argue and I simply don't have time to engage someone who will not stay focused.

quote:
Excellent point about the new revelation for how we would be included, I believe that without Paul's new teachings, non-Jews would have to become proselyte Jews to become part of the common wealth of Israel, partakes with them in God.

Right, Larris' claim that Christ's doctrine was for Gentiles on equal footing with Israel is wrong. He forbade his apostles to even go to Samaritans until after the resurrection. Moreover, the passage in Mark 7:24-30 shows Christ speaking of Gentiles as "dogs" getting crumbs from the table - not co-heirs via Pauls gospel of grace.

quote:
I say one "part of the" gospel that applies to both, I thought you were a "12 out", right? Two gospel messages between the circ. and uncirc., one savior, one redemption, one justification, one atonement, etc. Just checking.

I'm Acts 28 out. I started out similar to your views but came to the conclusion that Acts 28 is the only way to make sense (assuming the Bible means what it says in context) out of Matthew 5 and Acts, plus the distinctions between Paul's Acts and post-Acts epistles. I'll be glad to discuss it if you want to.

wjs

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/15/2004 3:19 PM (GMT -6)

Larris,

I was skimming your HUGE post and saw one thing I have time to respond to:

quote:
You are probably just getting angry at what I say. But I will tell you that it is not just one aspect of Dispensationalism that leads us to believe it, but many slight deceptions introduced into our minds over time. And there is definately a spirit behind it, howbeit not the holy spirit, but you also have the holy spirit, but if you do not pay attention to the literal words of Jesus Christ that he taught in the gospels, the holy spirit cannot help you come to a knowledge of the truth. For it is his job to only bring those things to your remembrance as you put them in your mind and seek to do as the Lord commmands us.

First, I'm not getting angry at WHAT you write, but I AM exhausted by HOW MUCH you write. You don't have patience to stick to a subject. You have not refuted one point I've made so far, and yet you keep adding pages and pages of new material to respond to. I can't keep up with this game you're playing. But know this, I have NEVER said that Christ's teachings are irrelevant to me. But some have unique applicability to Jews and/or his apostles. Christ did NOT command ME to "GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES." That was to his apostles. It CANNOT be applied to me. Christ did NOT tell ME that I should have "TITHED THE MINT AND CUMIN." That was to Jews. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING LARRIS!!!! Otherwise one can prove virtually anything.

wjs

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/15/2004 7:29 PM (GMT -6)

You know, part of the problem that I see going on here is that we have not defined our terms. And these terms have to be defined by what the scriptures say they are and taken according to their various usages according to context. Now surely we could at least agree on that.

We have already seen through several examples that one word can be used to refer to several different things, though in aspects they can be related.

For instance:

quote:
1way states: I agree with you, but I thought my point about Paul's mystery being taught by the Spirit would argue decisively for the difference. Larris seems to think that because the mystery was revealed to Paul by Christ that it was NOT revealed BY the Spirit. The text says otherwise, and the 12 did NOT have the Spirit when they were taught the Kingdom mysteries.

1way uses the term or words the Spirit three different times in that statement.

However what he might mean and what I might mean and what someone else might mean by that term “the Spirit” could be three different things.

I think we need to define what each one of us might mean by using that term “the Spirit”.

Because until we can at least agree on some basic meanings of words and terms and how they are used, what is the use of any discussion whatsoever.

If I am speaking about my dog, and you are picturing a cat you use to have named “dog”, then our communication has some sever problems.

So may we just define a few terms here so that we can all be on the same page at least in some respect?

If you don’t mind if you could please give me what your definition and understanding is of the term “the Spirit”. And then I will respond as briefly as (larrisly possible) to what I believe that term means.

In Christ,
larris

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/16/2004 1:54 PM (GMT -6)

Larris,

quote:
2:6 Now we do speak wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are perishing. 2:7 Instead we speak the wisdom of God, hidden in a mystery, that God determined before the ages for our glory. 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it. If they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 2:9 But just as it is written, “Things that no eye has seen, or ear heard, or mind imagined, are the things God has prepared for those who love him.” 2:10 God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 2:11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So too, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 2:12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God. 2:13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. 2:14 The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 2:15 The one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is understood by no one. 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to advise him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Now if that passage does not say that one must HAVE the Spirit to understand the mystery which Paul spoke of, I don't know WHAT it's saying. Note also that 2:7 and 2:8 make it clear that the mystery is about CHRIST CRUCIFIED. Would you claim that the twelve understood THAT mystery during Christ's pre-ressurection ministry?

wjs

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/16/2004 7:15 PM (GMT -6)

larris - I don't know Jefscott very well, though he seems pretty sharp, but, I wonder if when he said

quote:
Would you claim that the twelve understood THAT mystery during Christ's pre-ressurection mystery?

he actually meant this

quote:
Would you claim that the twelve understood THAT mystery during Christ's pre-ressurection ministry?

but I can't say for sure, though as like minded as he and I are, I can't tell what he meant as stated. Seems likely that "transposition happens". I hope this helps.

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/17/2004 1:31 AM (GMT -6)

1WAY,

quote:
larris - I don't know Jefscott very well, though he seems pretty sharp, but, I wonder if when he said
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you claim that the twelve understood THAT mystery during Christ's pre-ressurection mystery?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

he actually meant this
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you claim that the twelve understood THAT mystery during Christ's pre-ressurection ministry?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but I can't say for sure, though as like minded as he and I are, I can't tell what he meant as stated. Seems likely that "transposition happens". I hope this helps.

You're right - that IS what I meant. Thanks for the correction. I'll fix it.

wjs

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/17/2004 7:51 PM (GMT -6)

LOL - Jefscott - I think I have made that exact mistake before, glad to be of service. Cool

Nessie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2003
Total Posts : 14

Posted 6/23/2004 8:00 AM (GMT -6)

good stuff

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 7/3/2004 1:36 PM (GMT -6)

Nessie - Oh? What good do you speak of?

Neo Matrix
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15

Posted 7/17/2004 1:11 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by John Earp

Abraham was justified by faith, just as anyone else in any dispensation (Gen. 15). No one could ever be justified by works of the law, not even in the OT. Galatians 3 clearly demonstrates this.

What was revealed to Paul was that the Gentiles were now included in God's plan of redemption.

I agree somewhat with your reply here. However Abram was justified by faith Then in Genesis 17 God gave him the coveanant of the circumcision and was then called Abraham. After this pont he was no longer justified by faith alone now it is by faith with the circumcision a dispensation of circumcision. When God put the law on Israel it was then justified by faith, circumcision and the Law dispensation of the Law But in the dispensation of the Grace of God Eph 3 its more than just Gentiles now being included into God's plan. God brought us in without all the covenants of Israel by faith alone. Israel was being set aside at this time as well untill the dispensation is finished Rom 11.

if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Neo Matrix
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15

Posted 7/17/2004 1:52 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by John Earp

1way,

The Eph. passage is very clear in precisely what the mystery consists of and Paul himself states that others received this very same revelation. I have bolded the parts that make this clear below:

4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostleS and prophetS: (Note, more than just Paul received this revelation)

What was the content of the mystery? Verse six clearly lays that out for us:

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

The passage itself reveals that not only did Paul receive this revelation, but "holy apostles and prophets" likewise received this revelation of the mystery of the Gospel, and the mystery is plainly defined by Paul himself as the inclusion of the Gentiles in the covenant people of God.

From Acts 15:1-4 Its clear they didnt go along with Pauls new revelation. Even when this new revelation was reveled to Peter in Acts 10 he never fully understood it As Paul did. 2 Peter 3:14Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. The Mystery which was reveled to Paul was not a message the other apostles preached. Glatians 1:6I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Gal. 2:7But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. If the other Apostles understood the Mystery which is the Gosple now goes to the Gentiles why did then not go to the Gentiles as well?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/17/2004 2:07 PM (GMT -6)

That's just a bad reading of scripture.

First, let me just say that you said nothing about what the "nature" of the revelation (the nature of the revealing--a verb) of God is. THAT needs attention.

-----

But on to what you said in your first two posts in this thread...

1Way, I read your two posts. I've read your posts, it seems, for years now. And caught all the details and the gist. But it is still plain as day that the Acts-9 Dispensational Theory DOES NOT HOLD WATER!!!

All this leads to the theory that proof-texting is the first step on the road back to illiteracy.

I just LOVE all the scripture passages you posted. And I just want to shout "Let the text speak." But your two postings did not accomplish that. I much prefer letting the text speak, reading it as something written, and not treating it as an instrument in a spy operation.

quote:
Because I already understand ... the unique message ... so these things make natural sense to me, but the average Christian would not appreciate such things

quote:
if you grant the uniqueness of the revelation that was given to him (Paul).

quote:
that this dispensation was delivered in hidden mystery, and is called "the fellowship of the mystery".

quote:
I say it's because the nature of the revelation of these mysteries are more deep than that.

quote:
So, become a workman, rightly dividing the word of truth, and be a wise investor in the things of God by seeking the veiled and hidden things.

quote:
keep searching for the hidden matters

quote:
preach boldly the hidden revelation from God!

quote:

Sounds quite cultish.

1Way, I see where you say: "Notice, even though it is an uncomfortable idea for most, God through Paul stipulates this new revelation as including the teachings about Christ which are not according to previous revelation, but were first given to Paul."

But Paul himself says: "...Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith" St. Irenaeus preached "Christ according to the Scriptures." And Paul says: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,... (1 Corinthians 15:3)." And those SCRIPTURES are the Old Testement Law, Psalms and Prophets which spoke of Christ!!!!!!!!!

Paul says it, and what he says is that the "Scriptures" held the mystery all along; but that the "reveal"-ation, the uncovering to our eyes of what has always been there to those with eyes to see (Abraham "saw" His Day...) is the Gospel of salvation in Christ Jesus.

Proof-texting does seem to be the first step back to illiteracy.

Let the Holy Text speak!

There is lots more to notice in your post; but even more to notice in what Paul is saying in the scriptures.

==============================================

ALL THIS SCRIPTURE READS STRAIGHT FORWARD!

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence" THIS IS THE SAME FOR ALL, FROM ADAM TO...WELL, NOT BORN YET. AND IT IS WHAT PETER AND JAMES, AND... PREACHED AS WELL. SAME/SAME!

Eph 3 "...the grace of God ... which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets... '

ANYONE SAYING THIS WAS UNIQUE TO PAUL HAS TO DEAL WITH THE PLURALITY OF APOSTLES AND PROPHETS.

Eph 3 "the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel..."

SAME/SAME. GENTILES AND JEWS, FELLOW HEIRS.

Eph. 3 "I became a minister ... that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;"

Paul had a job to preach that mystery (which Peter and the others also preached) that was "hidden in God" that is Christ Jesus' economy of salvation.

Eph 6:18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints-- 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak

PAUL IS PRAYING FOR ALL THE MINISTRY THAT GOD HAS ENTRUSTED HIS HANDS TO' PRAYING FOR "ALL THE SAINTS," AND HOPING TO BE BOLD.

I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

PAUL KNOWS THAT HE IS AN EXAMPLE. THE "IN ME FIRST" BIT REFERS TO HOW MUCH A SCOUNDRAL HE HAD BEEN, AND NOW A POSTERBOY.

1Ti 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

SAME!

Ro 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel-and-the-preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--

THE GOSPEL IS OF CHRIST JESUS ('of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began'), NOT OF PAUL!

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 7/17/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6)

POW - Your just a nay sayer.

Generalizations and tearing down an argument is childs play. How about go head to toe with the particulars instead of avoiding them.

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 7/17/2004 6:07 PM (GMT -6)

Frankly, I never quite looked at it this way before, but check this out.

quote:
Abraham was justified by faith, just as anyone else in any dispensation (Gen. 15). No one could ever be justified by works of the law, not even in the OT. Galatians 3 clearly demonstrates this.

What was revealed to Paul was that the Gentiles were now included in God's plan of redemption.

Consider the logical contradiction John set forth. At the first, gentiles were not included in God's plan of salvation, then they were included. Since when is that NOT a huge change??? Talk about a contradiction.

(My thoughts)
Today, ANYONE can be saved by grace through faith,,, to him who does not work BUT believes,,, in Christ there is no difference between Jew or Gentile,,, ALL belong to one body in Christ (if you are saved)!

(According to John's idea)
Yet back then, Gentiles were not included in God's plan of salvation.

See, both gospel messages are the same. Cool

(Contradictory nonsense)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/18/2004 3:04 AM (GMT -6)

I read everything that you posted; and the way in which you take minor parts of paragraphs and twist them to act like the main subject hurts to see.

What would a Journalism teacher say? (And what grade would she give?)

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