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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > The nature of _R_E_V_E_L_A_T_I_O_N_ Eph 3:3 & 3:9 | Forum Quick Jump
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/18/2004 3:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
.back then, Gentiles were not included in God's plan of salvation.
The WHOLE world was always the goal of God's plan. (John 3:16) Peter said as much in quoting Joel. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/18/2004 12:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
The WHOLE world was always the goal of God's plan. (John 3:16) Peter said as much in quoting Joel.
True. Ruth. Rahab. Israel was created to be a light to the whole world.
Amen. As Athanasias said of preaching about the CROSS: the OT gives us the words, and the NT gives us the perspective to interpret the words. Like The Etheopian Eunich, he could read the words but needed perspective to answer the question of "I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other?" Perspective can be everything. What seemed mundain in the OT can be shown revealed later to be part of the salvation of the whole world. | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
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Total Posts : 299
| Posted 7/18/2004 10:42 PM (GMT -6) | | POW quote:
(POW said)
The WHOLE world was always the goal of God's plan. (John 3:16) Peter said as much in quoting Joel.
But that is not the discussion.
quote:
back then, Gentiles were not included in God's plan of salvation.
Unless your just saying that John was wrong for saying that back then, the Gentiles were not included in God's plan of salvation. I agree that back then with few exceptions, God seems to focus salvation for Israel, that "eventually" through them as a nation, the world would end up coming to salvation.
But today, Israel is not the way that God said the Gentiles would turn to God for salvation.
Zec 8:8 I will bring them [back], And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people And I will be their God, In truth and righteousness.’
... 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.’
23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."‘"
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Hmmmm
"If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." | | Back to Top | | |
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Neo Matrix
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Total Posts : 15
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:23 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
(According to John's idea)
Yet back then, Gentiles were not included in God's plan of salvation.
See, both gospel messages are the same. 
(Contradictory nonsense)
Both Messages were not the same under the circumcision gosple it was faith, circumcison, Law, Baptism.
Acts 15: And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Did Paul have a problem whit this 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute,
Then in Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. Was both messages the same? If so why did Paul warn those of the body of Christ Gal.1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Also if both were preaching the same message then why 2 gosples and why was there a division with them Gal. 2:6But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Paul writes in Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
Yet James writes James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Works of what? James 2:8If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”£ you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”£ also said, “Do not murder.”£ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. Now thats a contradiction and not the same message.
I believe Paul said it best when he said 2 Tim 2:Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God Bless 1 way good post
if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix
Paul writes in Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
Yet James writes James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Works of what? James 2:8If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”£ you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”£ also said, “Do not murder.”£ Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. Now thats a contradiction and not the same message.
There is nothing mutually exclusive about those two scripture passages.
"Works of the Law" was a covenant that if man kept the law perfectly it would insure a molding inwardly of the character and relationship that God designed us for and without which we whither. Paul does NOT preach against works!!!!! He just says that the "works of the law" are not capable of helping us because of a frailty on our part. Even by Paul being a "good Pharasee" he still horribly sinned--killing God's servants and turning himself into a god/judge. Paul writes: "The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace..." Paul makes many statements commanding his disciples to act Godly. Paul describes how challenges build character and instructs them in what attitude to have about it all. Those are "WORKS."
James says that such "WORKS" are too be expected in a growing Christian. Both Paul's Romans 5 and James 1 give almost exactly the same message about Christian growth.
And, flatly, if you aren't growing (producing fruit/works) you are showing signs of being dead. But the gardener will bring his pruning scissors.
One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/21/2004 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
Neo Matrix: James message in James 1 is about doing the works of the Law. Pauls Message in Romans 5 is about how the Law only made us know we was doing wrong but that Christ death has justified us through his Grace.
PoW: Here's Romans 5:3-5: 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
And here is James 1:2-4: 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Same thing. Same concern!
Neo Matrix: Also you said Paul never spoke against the Law?
PoW: I know he preached against the imposition of "law" as requirement. (I've read Galatians, and a wonderful commentary on it.)
But that's not what I posted. I said: Paul does NOT preach against works!!!!! He just says that the "works of the law" are not capable of helping us because of a frailty on our part. Even by Paul being a "good Pharasee" he still horribly sinned--killing God's servants and turning himself into a god/judge. Paul writes: "The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace..." Paul makes many statements commanding his disciples to act Godly. Paul describes how challenges build character and instructs them in what attitude to have about it all. Those are "WORKS."
Everyone can read where Paul opposes those who would make ceremonies into obstacles to a relationship with God. But the "works" that Paul was IN FAVOR OF are internal and expressed externally, like generousity, etc. And he himself says of them: "against them there is no law." (Recongize the scripture portion?)
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1way
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Total Posts : 299
| Posted 7/23/2004 9:02 PM (GMT -6) | | POW
1
What quote did you have in mind about Peter quoting Joel? At one time, the whole world was not included for salvation just as John Earp said. If you agree with that, then please clarify. This is not saying that God did not make some exceptions to this rule, God did save gentiles upon occasion, but that is in keeping with Eph 2:12 if you consider "the world" in general, it was without hope and without God.
2
As to POW posted quote:
Neo Matrix: James message in James 1 is about doing the works of the Law. Pauls Message in Romans 5 is about how the Law only made us know we was doing wrong but that Christ death has justified us through his Grace.
PoW: Here's Romans 5:3-5: 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
And here is James 1:2-4: 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Same thing. Same concern!
 !!! Neither of your quotes deal with the law and works!!! Neo Matrix makes a point about the law in relation to faith in God, that Paul says that the law shows that man is guilty and wrong before God (Ro 5:13, 20), in other words, (today) the law of God represents a very negative message. I think he is right, and I say that God through our uncircumcision apostle is very consistent with that teaching. It's the strength of sin 1Co 15:56,
a ministry of:
death 2Co 3:7,
slaying Ro 7:8-11,
and condemnation 2Co 3:9
Ga 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, 
but "the man who does them shall live by them."  ,,,,,,,, sooooo, I'd say these are all in the "negative" category. But James 1 says ... not much about "the law", at least not overtly that I can see, so for the purposes of this response, I will assume James 2 which speaks about obeying God works and not just faith. James says quote:
Jas 2:14 What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
...
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe——and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James asks if faith alone without works is saving, his answer is no, faith without works is "dead".
3
Now, I could be wrong about James 1 not teaching about the law. Upon a second look, consider verse 25. quote:
Jas 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues [in it], and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
Then consider how this continues. quote:
Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill [the] royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
...
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
...
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
1Pe 2:9 But you [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Le 19:18 ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I [am] the LORD.
Mt 22:36 "Teacher, which [is] the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 "This is the first and great commandment. 39 "And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
So, after further reflection, it seems that James 1 was indeed referring to the perfect (royal) law of God, the Law and the prophets, and spoke of "continuing in it" only favorably.
So, James ...
(an apostle of the circumcision Act 10.45, 11.1-3, 21:18-24, esp. "but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.", as per James request(!) Paul is asked to demonstrate the message that he is also under the law(!), even though he does not teach that!)
... says that the (perfect, Royal) law of God is good, you must endure keeping it, continue in it, to keep from a faith unto death. Yet Paul says that the law is not for the saved believer quote:
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
quote:
Ro 4:9 [Does] this blessedness then [come] upon (Group 1) the circumcised [only], or upon (Group 2) the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are (Group 2) uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12 (Group 1) and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
So for Paul, our single apostle for the uncircumcision, the law is not for us believers who are of the faith of Abraham (before circumcised), it's for unbelievers, but for Peter and the 12 apostles who are of the circumcision, the Law is for keeping and a saving faith, that group of believers who are "of the Law". | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2004 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | You are missing it, 1way.
Simply, Paul critical discussion about the error of legalistic ceremony AS IF that had power to force God's hand is one thing; but James discussion about living out our faith (loving others as God has loved us) are two different things. Either Appostle could have easily said what the other has with equal ease, and equal applicability to their own audiences.
Many other people here could make the same criticism as I have in bold.
Perhaps it is not your fault: someone before you POLITICIZED the scriptures, which is a shame.
IMHO you confuse these when you read, and do a very poor juob reading and understanding scripture. ONCE you can accept that other people are not sinning by accepting what James says as being very good pastorial advice, then you can begin to appreciate the wisdom in ALL the books of the NT, and the OT too. Bless that day!!!
I'm tired of seeing you post the same falicy, over and over. I just suggest that you not make the Bible into a politically confused book for someone else.
BTW -- "Rightly deviding" means to make in us the application that God's gift of wisdom and light provides guildance for!
Have a blessed day.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2004 12:39 PM (GMT -6) | | James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
. . .
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. . . . 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
. . .
James 3:11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. . . . 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
. . .
James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
. . .
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
. . .
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
. . .
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
. . .
1 John 3:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/24/2004 12:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Oh, and THIS one:
James 2:16
... and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
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Total Posts : 299
| Posted 7/26/2004 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | POW
Point 1
No comment on the Joel passage or John Earp's comment.
Point 2
No comment about your contextual error switching from Neo's point about the different applications for the law to being about perseverance through trials and sufferings.
Nor my associated point that today the law is basically not for believers except to use it against those who are condemned under it's ministry.
Nor did you respond to my point about James 2 being about a dead faith (sounds damning to me) if you do not have works plus faith.
Point 3
Nor did you respond about James 1, and how he is speaking about God's law in verse 25.
Nor did you respond to the idea that James, as one of the circumcision apostles were still circumcision believers, keeping the law, being under the law, where as Paul our one uncircumcision apostle teaches us that we are NOT under the law, but we do use it lawfully to convict the unrighteous.
So while I understand that you believe differently, your response is less than helpful and clarifying.
We are not Jewish today to be God's children, bless God for the dispensation of Grace and Mystery that He gave Paul to give to us, and so we pray that we may speak boldly to proclaim the mystery program.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/26/2004 3:23 PM (GMT -6) | | 1Way, I'm not going to "respond" to nonsense.
But I did illustrate handily that Paul and Peter had the same concerns, preached the same Gospel of Christ crucified, dead, risen and glorified. I further illustrated (on the Baptism thread--so I'll post it here too) that later on the 12 were NOT confined to a narrow segregated church.
Your notion that there are Two Gospels is silly.
quote:
http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN500APOSTLES%20FATE.htm
Andrew preached in Achaia (southern Greece) and Scythia (Ukraine and southern Russia - St. Andrew is the patron saint of Russia), and was crucified at Patras in Achaia.
John, brother of James and son of Zebedee
According to John's Gospel (19:26-27), it was probably John who took Mary, the mother of Jesus as his adopted mother. He preached in Jerusalem, and later, as bishop of Ephesus, south of Izmir in western Turkey, worked among the churches of Asia Minor. During the reigns of either Emperor Nero (AD54-68) or Domitian (AD81-96), he was banished to the nearby island of Patmos, now one of the Greek islands in the Aegean Sea. He was subsequently freed and died a natural death at Ephesus c AD100.
Philip preached the Gospel in Phrygia (west central Turkey) before dying or being martyred there at Hieropolis.
The missionary work of Bartholomew is linked with Armenia (present day Armenia, eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, north western Iran) and India. Other locations include Egypt, Arabia, Ethiopia and Persia (Iran). Traditionally he met his death by being flayed or skinned alive, and then beheaded. Derbent, north of present day Baku on the Caspian Sea may have been his place of martyrdom. Alternatively he may have suffered this cruel fate in what is now India.
Thomas may have laboured for the Gospel in Parthia (including modern Iraq and Iran), but stronger traditions link him with southern India. Indian Christians from the west coast Kerala area claim they were evangelized by Thomas, who was later speared to death near Madras on the east coast.
Matthew, ater preaching in Judea, different traditions place his missionary work and possible martyrdom in Ethiopia or Persia.
Jude is also confused in some sources with Jude, one of the brothers of Jesus. He may have preached in Assyria (eastern Iraq) and Persia (Iran), before joining with Simon the Zealot and being killed with him in Persia.
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Paul baptized in water, Peter baptized in water. Paul preached that baptism was a participation in the death and resurrection of Christ, and Peter preached that baptism was a participation in the death and resurrection of Christ. Same...Same. Fini.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/26/2004 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
-----
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
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Romans 3:21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[9] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
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Romans 2:28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
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Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
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Scripture speaks for itself.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 7/31/2004 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | POW
Forgive me for noticing your continued lack of respectful reciprocal discussion. I responded to your points, and so I think it proper of me to expect you to respond in like manner. But you need not respond, you're certainly free to avoid what I have said.
Blessings | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Amen and amen, PoW!
I'd written: "Scripture speaks for itself."
quote:
1Way: Forgive me for noticing your continued lack of respectful reciprocal discussion. I responded to your points, and so I think it proper of me to expect you to respond in like manner. But you need not respond, you're certainly free to avoid what I have said.
I responded by posting scripture, which YOU then ignored -- several times.
But your own posts came with the complaint implying that I owed you a detailed response to arguements based on a nineteenth or early twentieth century 'philosophy of man' that does horrible things with God's word.
I responded to you, and in that way 'respected you' as a person. But I don't have respect for the ideas you presented as Gospel, nor for the attitude your posts often contained.
I think I prefer your tone this time.
Thanks,
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2004 4:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by 1way
Ok, I think I have two clear and somewhat comprehensive posts to expose my beliefs more accurately about the nature of the revelation for this dispensation.
Taking just the words, for a minute, this sounds like another thread that began about the same time. It had a different additive -- a slant that made it address the issue of necromancy (sp?), which seemed to me to drift off into the tall grass. But the thread title had something to do with identifying THAT THEOLOGY IS. This actually strikes me just a bit as being a little bit related. A little at least.
So WHAT IS the nature of the revelation?
Maybe THAT is what should be addressed here. So, what does the scripture say that the nature of revelation is?
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 7/31/2004 6:58 PM (GMT -6) | | POW
You have not responded "correspondingly" to the various "trains of thought" and "specific points and counterpoints" offered.
Should I site the entire bible, in order to one-upmanship your response? Ok, I do, there, so it's plain to see that I'm right.
As to asking about the nature of the revelation for this dispensation, I provided two sizable posts dealing with that issue, they are posts 1 and 2. Enjoy. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 2:17 AM (GMT -6) | | No. You didn't.
I'm saying that THE NATURE of revelation needs addressed. | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 8/1/2004 7:01 AM (GMT -6) | | POW
Oh, so at first it's quoting large sections of the bible as though it is your "personal response/answer", but now you move to something that is supposedly better, it's name it and claim it. Ok, again, I'll play it your way.
I "did" address the nature of the revelation for this dispensation in my first two posts.
So you respond by saying,,, I did not, so I respond by saying, oh yes I did.
Wonderful form of discourse so far, ,,, except, might I suggest that we actually go beyond the denial stage of an argument, and actually get into why we disagree on any point? Or is the fact of disagreement somehow magically sufficient to substantiate a matter one way or another? | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
No. You didn't.
I'm saying that THE NATURE of revelation needs addressed.
You had your answer, and I don't think is it sufficient. revelation is not just data. The Prophet says that revelation "will be" in the heart. And revelation for both Peter and Paul is that. | | Back to Top | | |
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1way
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299
| Posted 8/1/2004 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Jefscott
I couldn't find who squint  is. Thanks for the compliment.
POW
You are hard to understand. Maybe that is a good thing.
After hearing your rendition of rightly dividing the word of truth, I'm ok with you being vague and mysterious.  | | Back to Top | | |
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