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1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 11:28 AM (GMT -6)

Ok, I think I have two clear and somewhat comprehensive posts to expose my beliefs more accurately about the nature of the revelation for this dispensation. Please carefully consider this post foremost, and the second one as well.

I do not want to discuss tangents, please keep a focus on the nature of the revelation that was hidden in God and not previously revealed until it was given to Paul to give to us, this new hidden revelation concerns the dispensation of Grace and fellowship of the mystery.

Thanks for your time and thoughtful consideration.

Here is the centerpiece of what I am trying to get at. The following is what I believe.

you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery

by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ

which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed

that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Now, I am not being gullible, I understand that most Christians read that exact same passage and do not get from it what I do. So, I'll endeavor to comment on my understanding of special parts of this passage as it goes along in an attempt to help you understand what this wonderful passage means to me. Please carefully consider.

I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles——

This is a consistent theme with Paul, to call specific and isolated attention to himself. It seems that Paul is the only apostle to do this, and is strikingly similar to what Christ Himself is famous for teaching. Yet, these are the words of Christ, He is speaking to us through Paul, so naturally we find Paul being very assertive and authoritative, because his stewardship or responsibility for the teachings for this dispensation was given to him to give to us. Because I already understand the nature of the mystery revelation for this dispensation, and also much of the unique message that was given to Paul to give to us, so these things make natural sense to me, but the average Christian would not appreciate such things, which is a sad state of affairs. We are called to be like Paul and to pray that the mystery be boldly revealed from the teachings of the dispensation of mystery and grace, but most Christians have all but rarely even used the term "mystery", let alone have a habit of praying that the mystery be boldly revealed according to the way it has now been revealed strictly through Paul.

For we Gentiles!?! But Paul, today most believers claim there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, so why would you dare say such a thing? After all, you are the one who taught that there is no more difference (in the body of Christ), circumcision and uncircumcision means nothing (in the body of Christ). Yet, Paul plainly restates in many ways throughout his writings the differences between the circumcision and the uncircumcision. He even calls himself the apostle to us using that same idea. He even tags this differentiation onto the gospel as well.

I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me,

So for some good and godly reason, Paul is very concerned about these differences. I believe he is the only one in the whole bible who explains the differences between the two main groups of believers, and he mostly explains how our group, those of the uncircumcision, are different from those of the circumcision. And I think that is a big implication behind Paul's declaration that this dispensation from God fulfills the word of God (Col 1:25), because Paul's writings helps us make perfect sense of it all, if you grant the uniqueness of the revelation that was given to him.

you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

Praise God for our one apostle Paul. Paul was "the" person who was specifically entrusted with the responsibility of delivering the teachings for our current dispensation to us. Notice carefully the general idea being stated about the mysteries in the following citation of 1Co 4:1. Consider that according to most Christian's lack of differentiation, they would have had no problems accepting this statement in the following alternative ways, ,,, but not those who appreciate the mystery aspect of our current dispensation. God could have said

stewards of the revelations,
or stewards of the scriptures,
or stewards of the teachings,
or stewards of the prophesies,
or stewards of the doctrines,

but I believe that God is very purposeful and wise with His word choice, so He is again calling special attention to the nature of the revelation for this dispensation of mystery and grace, such that we see that there is a general connection between these Pauline various but generally associated mystery teachings. I realize that is a logical inference that the text does not spell out, but I see no other better understanding, and I think it makes perfect sense especially when you consider that this dispensation was delivered in hidden mystery, and is called "the fellowship of the mystery". So it is only natural to unify these special and unique teachings.

Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

I have been entrusted with a stewardship.

(*Strongs 3622 = oikonomia = dispensation!*)

His body, which is the church,

the

(*Strongs 3622 = oikonomia = dispensation!*)

from God which was given to me for you,

the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

So we see that Paul is the only one that was specifically given the trust over delivering to us the dispensation that we currently live in. That is a very foundational and comprehensive teaching, despite it's obscurity among the saints.

how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery

Paul's message is new and different, so it is not surprising that Paul dictates to us that this is not his own personal teaching, his authority and teachings comes directly from God and is the revelation for this dispensation. Again, scripture isolates Paul as the single person who God made known the mystery...

by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ

Meaning, "when you read Paul's writings". It is clear that this is only referring to Paul's writings that we should read in order to understand the teachings for this dispensation. Again, "my knowledge" is typical isolated references to Paul's unique message and authority given to no one else.

"The mystery of Christ". Jesus Christ is in various ways taught throughout all of scripture! So if you do not know how the Pauline (uncircumcision) teachings of Christ is a mystery teaching that is not according to other revelation, then you most certainly are missing out of huge dividends of revealed knowledge in the scriptures. Preach and teach for the mystery aspect of Jesus Christ to be boldly preached.

which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed

as it has now been revealed What a fabulous and virtually lost teaching. This lends the idea that the new revelation was not previously made known as it has now been revealed. You have previous revelation, then you have revelation that was not previously made known as it has now been revealed. So if you think you heard this stuff before, and you do not see a new revelation, then you are misunderstanding what should be understood.

See, it's like I have been saying all this time. This dispensation is according to mystery teachings from revelation that was not otherwise made known, but now is revealed (through Paul's writings to us). And it is also true that this revelation was eventually ratified (_*_) by the other apostles. Peter was given a little bit of revelation to teach the circumcision to accept what God was about to do with the uncircumcision, and apparently the Jerusalem council rounds out this truth as well.

(_*_) (but not until after many years of Paul founding his ministry on purpose WITHOUT verifying his gospel and dispensational teachings with the other apostles. It seems obvious that the ascended Jesus was all the verification he needed to establish his ministry away from the Jerusalem.)

that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

And yet basically everyone typically thinks this is a tried and true bible wide teaching! But it is not. So, do you understand how this teaching was not otherwise revealed until it was given to Paul? If not, then I think you are missing out on a great deal of important biblical truth.

I became a minister

given to me

Amen, Paul was "the one" who was entrusted with this gospel by the effective working of the power and authority of God.

that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

Talk about overdoing it! Ok already Paul, we hear you, you are the man that God specifically chose to reveal the dispensation of grace to us. As to the unique phrase, "unsearchable riches", talk about most people dropping the ball over the immediate context, God is referencing and highlighting, at least in part, the nature of the revelation being described! That is to say, since it truly was hidden in God and not otherwise revealed until it was entrusted with Paul to give to us, you can NOT search out these teachings unless you differentiate these teachings from all others. In other words, consider everything else when you read Paul's stuff, and you should expect to see new and different revelation because it is not otherwise searchable, you can not find this stuff in the writings of the rest of the bible. Hence is why I keep mentioning that we should know both things, the content of the new teaching, which may sound much like other teachings, and then more importantly, understand how it is that Paul's particular use of that teaching is different and unique and not otherwise revealed but through Paul!

The bible is exciting and treasures await those who diligently seek them out. God's word is true, the teachings for this dispensation are both unique and relevant to other teachings. But in this dispensation, they hold unique meaning that we should naturally respect and understand. The differences matter.

and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Why is God through Paul stating a teaching, that He wants to reveal mystery teachings? If God is only stating the obvious, if God is only teaching what is necessary to understand the mystery, then why not just
state what the mysteries are, why say, "to make men see", if the hidden mystery is simply being revealed and does not contain any significantly new teachings, then why not say, to make men hear or make men believe, and simply be done with it???

I say it's because the nature of the revelation of these mysteries are more deep than that. They sometimes relate to, or sound similar to, other teachings that already exist, but they hold brand new meaning that was never before revealed! So that being the case, each time such a teaching is expressed, we can know that it does not just mean the similarities that we otherwise have been taught, it necessarily means that there is a new or different aspect involved, something that is not elsewhere taught. God repeats over and over and over again, this stuff concerns teachings that was hidden in God, never before revealed.

Also, consider that the phrase "the fellowship of the mystery" is a direct recap of the ideas just presented in vv.2-3, so this is like a summary of the following ideas,

the dispensation of the Grace of God which is a mystery revelation that was kept hidden in God,

by simply referring to this dispensation as a "fellowship of the mystery", so we are living in a "dispensation of the fellowship of the mystery", or for short, the "dispensation of the mystery".

So, become a workman, rightly dividing the word of truth, and be a wise investor in the things of God by seeking the veiled and hidden things. You live in the dispensation of mystery, you should be well versed in the mysteries and how they are different from any other teaching.

a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

rejoice at Your word As one who finds great treasure.

the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found

for joy

every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure [things] new and old."

be encouraged, being knit together in love, and [attaining] to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery

in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

[It is] the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Be blessed in Him by the effective working of His power according to His sometimes hidden and mysterious word.

So, please don't feel left out just because you don't get it right off the bat. The revelation from God commands you to work at it, so keep seeking after the things of God, keep searching for the hidden matters, so that in the end, you will have the full assurance of understanding of even the mysteries of God. The hidden treasure is there, God beckons your search that you should also find and understand these hidden teachings. So, again I say, if you do not boldly support the hidden teachings of God, and pray that they be revealed by those who understand them in order to "make men see" these things, then you are missing out on so much that God calls you to understand and teach.

I'm not just going to explain my unique teachings, that would be inappropriate to try to explain my understandings of the various new teachings, when the entire concept that there are any new teachings has not yet even been established. First things first. Please help me gain mutual understanding about the uniqueness of the revelation for this dispensation. And then precept upon precept.

Be blessed, preach boldly the hidden revelation from God!

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 11:31 AM (GMT -6)

Same issue, only on a broader more general basis, including associated issues.

Pauline dispensational teachings were not previously revealed to anyone else. The unique way of faith (dispensation teachings) that we have for today was strictly given to Paul to give to us. We are living in the dispensation of Grace and Mystery such that our dispensation does not fit in with the rest of biblical prophesy, namely, the end times of trials and tribulations are not about us at all, they are about Israel. We are not Israel, God clarifies us as being separate from them in the most dramatic ways.

quote:
Ro 11:15 For if their being cast away [is] the reconciling of the world, what [will] their acceptance [be] but life from the dead?

Ro 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. ... 28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Please consider the following bible teachings and how they teach the significant differences that matter.

We are cautioned to not go to the circumcision for our faith, instead, we should be imitators of Paul, and follow his teaching.

imitate me.

Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Paul is our pattern for faith and salvation.

I obtained mercy, that in me first

as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

(1) All teachings specific for this dispensation were given to Paul. God through Paul describes the gospel and preaching of Jesus Christ was a mystery kept secret until "now" being made manifest, as in being currently given to Paul, not otherwise. Now for the nature of the teachings in this dispensation. Please pay special attention to point 3, because it describes the very nature of our entire dispensation and how it was revealed.

according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest,

(2) This is an amazing teaching that I believe concerns the rapture (though perhaps not primarily) and how it actually is that -- in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him. Note the idea that God is mentioning a gathering together of those who are in heaven and which are on earth. This dispensation of the fullness of times seems to have a reference of the (pretrib) rapture in mind upon it's conclusion, even the name of this dispensation, the fullness of times, shows separation from the next dispensation, which is good correlation with the rapture event. And how logical and brilliant is that? It makes perfect sense to start up the next dispensation immediately following the exit of all those who became saved in the previous dispensation, that way it will only be natural to be able to swiftly start up with the next dispensation, which I believe will be picking things up right where the last one left off.

In Him we have redemption

having made known to us the mystery of His will,

that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose

that we who first trusted in Christ

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit

who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,

(3) This is the main feature presentation for the nature of the teachings for this dispensation. It is not according to any other revelation but that which was given to Paul to give to us. Notice, even though it is an uncomfortable idea for most, God through Paul stipulates this new revelation as including the teachings about Christ which are not according to previous revelation, but were first given to Paul.

you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery

by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ

which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed

that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

(4) God through Paul even clarifies that this new message includes the mystery of the gospel.

praying always

for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

(5) In this dispensation, even Paul needed help from God to boldly proclaim the mystery of Christ as he aught to make it manifest. This issue can get somewhat complicated, and I think is largely what the circumcision crowd meant by describing Paul's writings as being sometimes difficult to understand.

that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ,

that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

(6) The following should be a real eye opener for folks who do not consider Paul this way, and also for those who do not understand how it is that God is lumping together in like mannor the various mystery teachings, namely that these mystery teaching from the dispensation of grace and mystery are NOT according to other revelation than what was specifically given to Paul.

Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

God through Paul uses the word for mystery in more than one way. But the most notorious and extensively clarified way it is used, is to describe the very nature of this current dispensation! Which was a hidden revelation that was not otherwise revealed until it was given to Paul to give to us. So this general mystery emphasis, even calling this dispensation, the fellowship, or dispensation of the mystery(!!!), has a very specified thing in mind. So there is little doubt that God was telling us to consider Paul and his fellow ministers as being servants and stewards of the new revelation that was specifically given to Paul, and not some other sort of mystery.

Thanks much for your time and consideration.

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 12:27 PM (GMT -6)

I politely and respectfully ask that folk read my first post three times Bandit2

, and my second post twice. Approve

We all know full well the ability of a mindset, and how it wants to judge things prior to taking in the whole story. So, the very least I expect is for you to carefully read each post twice all the way through, not just scanned. I know that for most of you, that will be a very real challenge. Consider myself, I can't hardly read 10 verses in a row without stopping and going off on an a tangent! So I am speaking from experience and reasonable concern. Many of you will see particular issues that may make you get upset and throw you for a loop. That is the last thing I want to happen, unless the truth is upsetting what is false. But such is truth and error. We all know about the often uncomfortable feeling of being shown we are in the wrong.

I spent a good deal of time on these posts, and I believe they do a good job explaining my views.

Once you have read each post all the way through with a careful ear to take in the entire message

without your preconceptions messing up the entire train of thought, then you might go back and read it again paying more particular attention to the details. But I'm guessing that the first time through, you will not be able to read the entire thing and clearly keep your mind on the presentation. (GOOD LUCK though, it is possible)

This calls for objectivity and a determined willingness to learn of the entire view first, prior to critically assessing any of it's contextually related details.

I realize that many of you folks have a lot of great learning and understanding to share, and we may well get to that, but first things first. If the nature of the revelation for this dispensation is truly unique compared to all other revelation, then all these opposing arguments become beside the point. Sufficiently knock this one point down and my view pretty much collapses Dead

, this point is that fundamental.

Thanks again in advance for giving this issue sufficient and objective Wink

critical review.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/9/2004 1:07 PM (GMT -6)

Abraham was justified by faith, just as anyone else in any dispensation (Gen. 15). No one could ever be justified by works of the law, not even in the OT. Galatians 3 clearly demonstrates this.

What was revealed to Paul was that the Gentiles were now included in God's plan of redemption.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 1:17 PM (GMT -6)

John Earp - I am well aware of that most believers believe differently about hundreds of tangential and secondary issues. That is not the point of this thread.

If my understanding of the nature of the revelation for this dispensation is right, then all these points of opposition are fully and truly besides the point, if it truly was a hidden revelation that was kept secret in God and specifically entrusted only to Paul, then it was not according to other revelation, it is by necessity a new revelation.

This issue is paramount, it is the reason for this thread, I will not entertain tangential or secondary issues, first things first.

Please do not promote more of this off topic focus. There is only one point to be dealt with. Only one teaching to reconcile or make clear.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/9/2004 1:24 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by 1way

John Earp - I am well aware of that most believers believe differently about hundreds of tangential and secondary issues. That is not the point of this thread.

Is it not your contention that in "this dispensation" people are dealt with by God in a manner differing from that in every other "dispensation"? That IS the issue as far as I can tell.

Is it your contention that believers in other dispensations were justified some other way than Abraham was?

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/9/2004 1:33 PM (GMT -6)

1way,

The Eph. passage is very clear in precisely what the mystery consists of and Paul himself states that others received this very same revelation. I have bolded the parts that make this clear below:

4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostleS and prophetS: (Note, more than just Paul received this revelation)

What was the content of the mystery? Verse six clearly lays that out for us:

6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

The passage itself reveals that not only did Paul receive this revelation, but "holy apostles and prophets" likewise received this revelation of the mystery of the Gospel, and the mystery is plainly defined by Paul himself as the inclusion of the Gentiles in the covenant people of God.

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 2:33 PM (GMT -6)

John Earp - I said

quote:
John Earp - I am well aware of that most believers believe differently about hundreds of tangential and secondary issues. That is not the point of this thread.

If my understanding of the nature of the revelation for this dispensation is right, then all these points of opposition are fully and truly besides the point, if it truly was a hidden revelation that was kept secret in God and specifically entrusted only to Paul, then it was not according to other revelation, it is by necessity a new revelation.

To which you somewhat incongruently said.

quote:
Is it not your contention that in "this dispensation" people are dealt with by God in a manner differing from that in every other "dispensation"? That IS the issue as far as I can tell.

Is it your contention that believers in other dispensations were justified some other way than Abraham was?

No John, that is not the contention at hand. The ONLY issue of contention for this thread is over the nature of the revelation. Ask once or a thousand times, my answer will remain the same.

You said

quote:
The Eph. passage is very clear in precisely what the mystery consists of and Paul himself states that others received this very same revelation. I have bolded the parts that make this clear below:

I realize that others got the revelation too, that is hardly the point. The only clear message we undoubtedly know, is that Paul was the one who was specifically identified as being the one that God choose to give this dispensation to, and for him to give it to us.

God to Paul to us, that is the path of the revelation that is constantly restated in Paul's writings. Remember, all the other official authoritative teachings that always and only specify Paul as the one person given this trust. See also 1Co 9:16 I have been entrusted with a dispensation, against his will, i.e. by the will of God. Col 11:24,25 for the sake of His body, the church, I (Paul) became a minister according to the stewardship/dispensation from God which was given to me for you. Gal 2:7 The gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to Paul. Eph 3!!! Let me count the ways Paul is called out as being the specific and isolated person along with just his writings, given this message to give to us.

quote:
1 For this reason (1) I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles——
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God (2) which was given to me for you,
3 how that (3) by revelation He made known to me the mystery ( (4)as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, (5)as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 (6) of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
8 (7) To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

Seven times in one single passage(!!!), God highlights one man and his current new revelation for who was specifically given this trust, the scriptures even says that it is by reading Paul's writings that we learn about the dispensation we currently live in, only Paul is specifically mentioned like this. It's not remotely reasonable to assume that this repetitive redundancy was just so that we would have an easier time in remembering Paul's name, or some other egocentric reason. Paul worked with Jesus Christ alone for umpteen years establishing his ministry and on purpose did not go among those in Jerusalem. These multiple and consistent references to Paul as being the one person who was entrusted with the teachings for this dispensation altogether well establish God's focus on only Paul as being God's man for us for this dispensation.

In his first book Galatians, Paul repeatedly states that his gospel and ministry was not verified by men nor given or taught to him by man, but through the Lord! It is incredible that Paul highlights himself as being the one person who was specifically given this new revelation, only to think that no, it was also given to others. Others certainly did get the message revealed after the fact, by Paul. Also, Peter got some revelation, but you can hardly qualify, rise Peter kill and eat (what God considers clean should be considered clean) a profound and enlightening teaching for this dispensation, for us, that's like a "duh" teaching, who doesn't know that, it was better suited to dispensational believers under the law who needed a clear message from God to help them to accept the new thing God was about to do with Paul and the uncircumcision.

So the entire context of the NT is clear that Paul is the one Apostle for us uncircumcision, and others did get this revelation from him and by his writings and spoken teachings. To suggest otherwise goes against this repeated message and is not plainly stated anywhere.

And lets say all that scripture references that consistently isolate Paul as being the one who was given the new revelation for this dispensation, but was not the only one God gave it to, it is theoretically possible that although God specifically entrusted Paul with our current dispensation, He may have also given it to others as well. SO WHAT? What difference would that make? It was still a new message not otherwise revealed until it was given to Paul and perhaps a few others, as has NOW been revealed, now meaning concurrent to Paul's new revelation. And Paul is certainly the only one who scripture says that by reading his writings we may understand this dispensation. So such conjecture on your part is not worthwhile, and flies in the face of what the scriptures consistently says was indeed the case.

Paul is our one Apostle, the 12 was kept separate from him, they only rarely crossed paths, and they taught different messages. The revelation was from God to Paul to us, full circuit, full disclosure, no one else need apply.

But again, first things first. This is all besides the point. !!!!!!!!! First deal with the nature of the revelation that was given to Paul to give to us!!!

Please John, thoughtfully and carefully reconsider what you are doing, you are not dealing with the topic for this thread, instead you are dancing all around it. I want to dialogue with you, but not on tangential issues. First things first. The more you folks ignore and neglect this issue, the more weight it has against you for so doing.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/9/2004 2:43 PM (GMT -6)

1way:

I have absolutely no interest in dancing with you at all. Big Smile

I have answered your questions to the best of my knowledge, and yet I am completely unable to see what your point is, if it isn't in fact that Paul had something revealed to him by God that no one else did in his day, and that Paul's writings are somehow the only ones directly applicable to our "dispensation." If that is not what you are saying, please state what you ARE saying in as few words as possible. In my experience, long, drawn-out posts tend to get skimmed over (if even that) by most people. Please answer in as short and concise a manner as you can. If you are unwilling to do so, I am willing at this point to let this discussion drop, as it does not appear that you are truly willing to listen to anyone but yourself.

God bless you,

John Earp

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/9/2004 3:06 PM (GMT -6)

As I have said in a previous post, the mere FACT that Gentiles could be saved was revealed to Peter and subsequently made known by him to the Jews in Jerusalem. Thus Paul's revelation must be different than that mere fact.

wjs

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 4:12 PM (GMT -6)

John - That was somewhat unfair. I am posting responses and listening to you, however I am saying to you that you are not dealing with my main point. But, I'd rather not play the blame game, I'd rather just deal with the issue at hand. I don't remember asking you questions for prompting your last several posts. My first two posts were demonstrations of what I believe and I asked that everyone please get familiar with all that prior to so much discussion.

Did you read my first two posts several times?

I am trying to establish an understanding of the nature of the revelation for this dispensation, that according to scripture, it is a new and thus different teaching because of the nature of this hidden revelation. I reason that if this revelation was not previously revealed, then you will not find it until it was given to Paul (except perhaps a bit with Peter and some in the book of Acts plus the Jerusalem council where they agreed to not oppose Paul's ministry after much debate). So, if that much is accurate, then all the rest of this argumentation is fully beside the point. You have yet to directly address the arguments from scripture that describes the nature of the revelation for this dispensation as being a new and thus different revelation.

Here's more on the nature of the revelation for this dispensation.

kept secret since the world began Ro 16:25, Eph 3:5

now revealed Ro 3:21, Eph 3:5, Col 1:26, 2Tim 1:10

Paul, (an apostle, teacher) to the gentiles Ro 11:13, 1Tim 2:7 2Tim 1:11

Hidden teaching/wisdom 1Cor 2:7, Eph3:9, Col 1:26,

mystery revelation Ro 11:25, Ro 16:25, 1Cor 2:6-10, 1Co 4:1, 1Co 15:51, Eph 1:9-10, 3:3-9, 6:19, Col 1:26-27, 2:2, 4:3, 1Tim 3:9,

Paul is our pattern, we are to imitate, follow him Phl 3:17, 1Th 1:6, 2Th 3:7, 3:9, 1Tim 1:16, 2Tim 1:13, 3:10

In summary, the nature of the revelation is not according to other revelation, it is thus accordingly different revelation, it is not the same as other teachings elsewhere.

So far, the most direct response to this main point has been to effectively say, no, this is not a new teaching, it is in accordance to other teachings only perhaps sometimes things are explained a bit further, corrections are made etc.

And, I do not want ANY OTHER TANGENTS, only why you disagree with the passages that indicate the uniqueness of the revelation for this dispensation. I'd start with Eph 3 where the case is well stated that our entire dispensation is according to a mystery teaching that was hidden in God until now revealed and entrusted with Paul to give to us.

Jefscott makes a great point. I'd like to take the never before revealed passages and start there, while Jefscott works with that particular angle as well. But these are just my suggestions.

In His way truth and life

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6)

John Earp - The scriptures say the revelation for this dispensation was kept hidden in God until finally revealed most clearly to Paul to give to us.

That being the case, it follows that these teachings are new and not in accordance to other revelation.

I see no reasonable argument against that. Please explain your response to this reasoning.

quote:
Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

The revelation for this dispensation was kept secret in God until now revealed in Paul's writings. That's a new message not otherwise revealed. You have my understanding, my text and from the previous posts, a "host" (perhaps "plethora" is an overstatement) of associated contextual support. Please respond to this clear and concise presentation in like fashion.

Blessings,

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/9/2004 4:46 PM (GMT -6)

-- Food for thought --

How can a never previously made known revelation/teaching be previously revealed? It's a direct contradiction, it can not be true. The new revelation must be somehow different or else it was not kept secret in God.

The following is a bit of exaggeration, but you folks effectively make it sound like the revelation for this dispensation was both:

And

And so I protest, I say if it really was kept secret and hidden in God until now given to Paul to give to us, then all other revelation does not apply. Again, sans some tangential revelation given primarily to Peter which basically only served to help the 12 to not reject Paul's ministry and gospel message.

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 6/10/2004 2:41 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by 1way

I politely and respectfully ask that folk read my first post three times , and my second post twice.

That rules me out.

Bandit

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/10/2004 3:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
I do not want to discuss tangents, please keep a focus on the nature of the revelation that was hidden in God and not previously revealed until it was given to Paul to give to us, this new hidden revelation concerns the dispensation of Grace and fellowship of the mystery.

Let's take this part of what you said:

"and not previously revealed until it was given to Paul.."

Except Paul said it was not revealed to him, but to that part you do not UNDERLINE and RED in which is:

by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

The mystery was revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: Paul just happened to be ONE of those holy apostles.

Lets read it again.

as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Let's read it again.

knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Let's read it again.

my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Lets read it again.

3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: (OF WHICH PAUL WAS ONE among at least 12 others, who received the same revelation.)

Lets read it again.

2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

This:
if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

Corresponds with this:

that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.

Paul was given a "dispensation", stewardship OF THE gospel to preach and minister to the Gentiles, while Peter was given THE SAME dispensation, or stewardship of the Gospel to preach and minister to the Jews.

Paul was not given anything whatsoever any more special or secret than any of the other apostles were given. As he said what he received was revealed by the Spirit to His holy APOSTLES and PROPHETS:

His "dispensation" was the responcibility to take care of that revelation and administer it to the Gentiles. While Peter and the other aposles receiving the exact same thing to ALL nations. With Peter being specifically assigned to see to it that it was ministered to the Jews.

In Christ,
larris

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/10/2004 7:51 AM (GMT -6)

TGB - Awhhh, that's too bad. But I'm glad to hear people being truthful about it. Many skim stuff through too quickly and just do not take the time necessary to understand what has actually been presented. This is not a thread for the easy and more lax mindset, takes a little work Bandit2

here.

If you want to try it in a different way Big Smile

, perhaps in a week or in one month, you could work up some extra gumption, and you could actually try reading one, or maybe(!?) even both posts(!!) once all the way through! That's right, you can do it on the installment plan. idea!

See, that way, in perhaps a month and a half or two months tops, you may be up to speed in well understanding the message being offered for your thoughtful consideration. (chuckling, giggles, mini ha-ha)

I'd offer you the better version of this plan, but it takes way more time, and that is to slow scan or quickly read the gospels and then go to Hebrews and read on till the end. And then carefully read Acts and all of Paul's writings, not including Hebrews (which I do not consider to be Paul's writing, their gospel was verified/established differently). Then, after you have done that

, do it again

, several times through

. Since it covers so much ground, and you may easily get sidetracked

in the many interesting details, so I highly suggest make the first or second reads relatively fast one's with an eye to take in the wider context instead of getting bogged down Simp_Janitor

by the details. It is amazing how much easier the details fit in together once you solidly understand the wider context. Shy

So, obviously in my two somewhat large posts, I'm trying to concentrate on just the most relevant passages, so of course they each deserve special and clear attention (something like a double read at a minimum). At least you took my request seriously. Who knows, maybe I'll hear from you in a year or two after you've read the NT through several times... That would be great(!), if the Lord tarries, or we do not die or otherwise (because of a thousand reasons) become unable or unwilling to communicate.

Thanks again for the honesty. And for a nice consolation memento Cool

, remember, the revelation for this dispensation of the Grace of God and the Fellowship of the Mystery, was kept secret, hidden in God and not (otherwise) revealed until it was expressly given to Paul to give to us, where Paul is our one Apostle for us of the Gentiles/Uncircumcision. Therefore, since the teachings for this dispensation are from new revelation, read Paul to get the latest and most relevant instructions for life and faith in God today, as well as how to better understand how we differentiate our current dispensation from the dispensation that we fit right in-between, like as an exception, or time out, to God's prophetic plan with Israel. We are not Israel, we are part of the Body of Christ.

their being cast away [is] the reconciling of the world,

Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved

Do you (it's all the same) folks really understand what God through Paul is saying in the next passage? How can one start out being circumcised and then become uncircumcised Shock

??? You can not rightly understand God's uncircumcision Blush

writings properly unless you understand the differences that matter.

Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Blessings in the way truth and life,
1Way

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/10/2004 9:03 AM (GMT -6)

larris - Again, of course other people received the revelation, scripture plainly says that it was given to Paul to give to us, and Paul plainly went out and shared his teachings to the 12 at the Jerusalem council where they had much debate (Acts 15:7) over what Paul was doing, yet they certainly did learn about our current dispensation, especially the gospel of the uncircumcision. Yet that does not invalidate the scriptures that plainly says that Paul was the specified one who entrusted with the revelation for this dispensation. God says that He gave/entrusted the dispensation to Paul (not to others) to give to us!

Also, note other bible passages that consistently makes the same claim specifying only Paul.

I have been entrusted with a stewardship.

(*Strongs 3622 = oikonomia = dispensation!)

I have been entrusted with a dispensation.

for the sake of His body,

of which I became a minister according to the stewardship(dispensation) from God which was given to me for you,

See, according to my view, I have no problem accepting these teachings as both congruent with similar teachings and they are true. Seems to me you would want to amend these teachings to mean that Paul was also given this responsibility, he was not, it was only him who was specifically entrusted with this dispensation and our current gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal 2:7).

This is from a post I already gave to John Earp on this same issue, with some improving edits. Consider.

__Quote:__

God to Paul to us, that is the path of the revelation that is constantly restated in Paul's writings. Remember, all the other official authoritative teachings that always and only specify Paul as the one person given this trust. See also 1Co 9:16 I have been entrusted with a dispensation, against his will, i.e. by the will of God. Col 11:24,25 for the sake of His body, the church, I (Paul) became a minister according to the stewardship/dispensation from God which was given to me for you. Gal 2:7 The gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to Paul. Eph 3!!! Let me count the ways Paul is called out as being the specific and isolated person along with just his writings, given this message to give to us.

quote:
1 For this reason (1) I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles——
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God (2) which was given to me for you,
3 how that (3) by revelation He made known to me the mystery ( (4)as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, (5)as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
7 (6) of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
8 (7) To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/11/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6)

Dear Jeff and 1way,

The following scriptures prove beyound a shadow of a doubt that Paul not only preached the exact same gospel that the other apostles preached, but that he also received it last, and that it was not any NEW REVELATION. May God bless you and open you eyes to this light in the wonderful name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

AND that he was buried,

AND that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

AND that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

AFTER THAT, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

AFTER THAT, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

AND LAST OF ALL he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Therefore whether it were I OR THEY they, so WE preach, and so ye believed.

Paul clearly tells exactly how, when and what he received and that is was NOTHING NEWor different than any of the other apostles.

Acts tells us what Paul preached and what he preached it out of, showing that what he preached was the same thing Jesus and ALL the other apostles preached.

24:10 10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself: ....But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee

25:23 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
....wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently. My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers: Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?....And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the WHICH I WILL APPEAR UNTO THEE; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

28:16 And when we came to Rome,...Paul called the chief of the Jews together: ....to whom he expounded and testified THE KINGDOM OF GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/11/2004 8:51 AM (GMT -6)

Larris - LOL

The reason why the Jerusalem council ever even met, was because of doctrinal differences between the circumcision and the uncircumcision. Paul even summed up his defense argumentation as being that gospel that he preaches. If they taught the same exact gospel then it is not remotely reasonable to have needed to even entertain such a dispute. You should not invalidate one teaching with another.

My view does not invalidate anything that you said, except that you go too far by saying they taught the same thing. Yes, they hold similarities, but the differences and disagreement was the reason for the need for conflict resolution.

So your incongruent positing that they taught the same gospel goes against the entire context involved. In fact, you are proving my point right now. Consider, if you and I agreed and preached the same gospel message and understanding, then we would simply agree and be glad, we would not be making dozens of posts trying to win points and influence people toward our view. Same holds for the circumcision and the uncircumcision.

The differences matter, don't make the same what are different.

In the way the truth and the life
1Way

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/12/2004 8:21 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
(1way states:):
The reason why the Jerusalem council ever even met, was because of doctrinal differences between the circumcision and the uncircumcision. Paul even summed up his defense argumentation as being that gospel that he preaches. If they taught the same exact gospel then it is not remotely reasonable to have needed to even entertain such a dispute. You should not invalidate one teaching with another.

I understand why you think this since the term "circumcision" is used in THREE DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT WAYS in the Word.

FIRST it is used regarding the ACT of circumcision itself.

SECOND it is used as referring to all the Jews as a whole.

And THIRD it is used AFTER the establishment of the NEW COVENANT, to refer only to those JEWS who had believed yet INSISTED that along with believing on him you MUST ALSO 1. Keep the entire Law of Moses i.e. the sacrifices et. and 2. BE CIRCUMCISED.

In the quote above the mistake regards taking what is DIFFERENT and MAKING IT ALL THE SAME. And then taking what is the same and making it different something commonly practiced in Dispensational theology.

Those present at the Jerusalem council were all the SAME in that they were all JEWS who were circumcised. Therefore they were of the circumcision.

But they were divided in that aspect of their circumcision in that the argument was not brought about by ALL the JEWS present but by a specific group from the Pharisees that had believed who were teaching the Gentiles they must be circumcized. One has to make the carful distinction of exactly which circumcision is being spoken of.

It's much the same mistake I addressed in an earlier post in which those not understanding or having an accurate knowledge of the history of "Israel" do not realize the different usages of the term "Israel" in the Word of God.

Not understanding the three distinct usages of the term 'circumcision' can cause one to wrongly divide the word of truth.

Acts 15 gives us the first recorded record of when this THIRD usage of referring to believing Jews adding circumcison to the gospel when they endeavord to get the believing Gentiles to accept it. These were at first just a small minority of the Jewish believers, out of the sect of the Pharisees.

Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
But there rose up CERTAIN (MEN) of the SECT OF THE PHARISEES WHICH BELIEVED saying, THAT IT WAS NEEDFUL TO CIRCUMCISE THEM, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

These "certain men" who had come down to where Paul and Barnabas were preaching the gospel, were NOT SENT by the APOSTLES and elders in Jerusalem, but went of their own accord and began preaching ANOTHER GOSPEL that ADDED the requirement of CIRCUMCISION as a MUST for salvation. In the letter after the dispute on this issue the Apostles and elders of THE CHURCH, NOT of the unbelieving Jews specifically stated they had NOT SENT THESE MEN.

15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
Forasmuch as we have heard, certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Those believers in Christ who were of the sect of the PHARISEES were not sent by the Apostles and Elders of the Church in Jerusalem, who themselves ALL clearly knew that Jesus did not teach "circumcision" but taught to THE CIRCUMCISION (Jews) and to THE GENTILES that the ONLY requirement for one to be saved was to believe in Him and the ONE Gospel he preached.

Under the covenant of the LAW of MOSES, before the NEW COVENANT in CHRIST, Physical circumcision was an absolute requirement for every Jew, and for ANY GENTILE who wanted to be saved, by joining themselves to ISRAEL. ONLY the act of circumcision gave any Gentile EQUAL standing with Israel as one born in the Land and of the seed of Abraham.

For a circumcised Jew to go into the house of or eat with an uncircumcised Gentile was considered a very grave SIN. For an uncircumcised Gentile to enter into the place of worship in the Temple was forbidden in the Law of Moses. But under the New Covenant in the "Law of Christ" the temple made with hands was no longer the place of worship, but each believer in Jesus Christ be he physically circumcised Jew or physically Uncircumcised Gentile collectively and equally together formed the NEW TEMPLE where God was worshipped in the hearts of each.

HOWEVER there were "some" certain men of the sect of the Pharisees that believed who without approval from the apostles and elders who knew these things, began to ADD circumcision which was in keeping with the Law of Moses NOT the gospel of Christ. They were endeavoring to bring not only Gentiles but the believing Jews also BACK UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. This group was not the main body of Pharisees who had not believed, nor was it neither the Sadducees, nor the Scribes nor of the Sanhedrin the ruling body of UNBELIEVING JEWS in Jerusalem. But ONLY those out of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed, who like all the other believers in Christ at this time were being spoken against by the Unbelieving secular and religious leaders of Jerusalem.

Because of the threat of PERSECUTION those who had believed of the sect of the Pharisees endeavored to bring back and institute the law of circumcision among the Gentiles, so that they could still go and worship in the temple without being considered UNCLEAN by the other non believing Jews.

It was the Jerusalem Council of Apostles and Elders NOT of the Jews, but of the Church in Christ, that settled the matter

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, EVEN AS they.

This clearly shows that Peter preached the SAME GOSPEL as Paul and that PETER was the FIRST ONE SENT TO PREACH IT. It was Peter that finally settled the matter among them. It was at this time that the realization of the MYSTERY, that the Gentiles would be fellowheirs with the Jews through Chrsit and not through the Law of circumcision. was coming to it's fulfilment by FIRST being made known to Peter and the rest of the apostles then in Paul.

The reason it is confusing is because of the Jews that endeavored to add both the Law of Moses and circumcision either did not realize the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised or they puposely becasue of greed and envy sought to add the burden on the Gentiles.

Jesus did not send the apostle just to the JEWS, he sent the apostles to BOTH the Jews and the GENTILES equally. This understanding of Jesus gospel was opened up to them BEFORE Paul was ever converted, and was the mission he gave them immediately before he arose into heaven.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: AND that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name AMONG ALL NATIONS, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (NOT JUST THE JEWS). He (weather Jew or Gentile) that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he (be he circumcised Jew or UNcircumcised Gentile) that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (which BOTH those of the "circumcision" did in Acts 2 and then those of the UNcircumcision did in Acts 10 by the mouth of PETER.)

Matt. 28:18 ALL power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach ALL NATIONS (ethnos, all ethnic populations, GENTILES)...teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you.

SEARCH AND SEE, that Jesus NEVER commanded any form of physical CIRCUMCISION whatsoever. NOT to the Jews and NOT to the Gentiles. Yet MOSES had commanded circumcision, and by it MANY in Israel in the days of Jesus MADE THEIR LIVING. This is why certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed started trying to introduce circumcision into the gospel of Christ, among the MULTITUDE of Gentiles which believed, FOR THE MONEY! Do you think "circumcision was FREE"? Paul flatly states that they came around both before and AFTER the matter was settled for the specific purpose of FILTHY LUCRE, MONEY!

Titus 1:3 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

HEY, preaching the gospel was FREE, until CIRCUMCISION was ADDED to it, and then you had to PAY FOR THAT. As the multitudes of Gentiles were added to the Church all the circumcision boys could see was a $100-dollar bill pasted right to the top of every foreskin they could chop off. ALL of the Pharisees were trained in CIRCUMCISION and they CHARGED for it. THAT was why they wanted to ADD it as a requirement for salvation.

After Peter speaks of how the Gentiles received the gospel and were saved BEFORE they were ever circumcised, the debate over the issue was pretty much settled.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon 9PETER) hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

James makes it clear that they are not there to teach nor to enforce the Law of Moses, "For Moses of old time hath in every city THEM THAT PREACH HIM." THEY the apostles, elders and disciples of the Lord DID NOT PREACH MOSES, they preached and taught CHRIST alone! However time upon time it is said that they preached and reason of Christ out of the law and the Prophets. The apostles knew how to correctly and rightily divide the Word of God regarding the gospel of Christ out of the scriptures, ONLY CERTAIN MEN out from among those who believed the gospel they all preached, took it upon themselves to them PREACH MOSES and especally circumcision, as an ADDED requirement for the salvation in Christ for the purpose of making MONEY.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: AND they wrote letters by them after this manner;

(Dear Gentiles,)

The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. (and confirm what Paul and Barnabas had taught them all along. So that they would know that ALL the apostles taught the VERY SAME GOSPEL.) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

(Lot's of Love XXXOOO, Peter, james, John, Matthew, Thomas etc. etc.)

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles. Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still. Paul also AND BARNABAS continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

I am sorry but I am not the one that is taking this event out of context and trying to prove that Paul received some special mystery Gospel that he taught all by himself to the Gentiles, that was TOTALLY DIFFERENT than anything all the other apostles, elders and disciples of the Lord taught.

You are taking the actions of a FEW certain men out of the SECT of the Pharisees that believed and reading it onto ALL the apostles, elders and disciples of the Lord EXCEPT Paul. Dispensational interpretaton make Paul into something he NEVER WAS, and produces a GOSPEL he did not preach, while falsely proclaiming that those apostles before him, preached a different gospel to the JEWS entirely.

In essence it makes of THREE different gospels first by ignoring the FIRST REAL gospel, then by giving Paul a special mysterious Gospel, and making it different from the other perverted form of the gospel that it says all the other apostles preached to the Jews. When they did not even just preach THE PERVERSION TO BEGIN WITH.

They ALL taught the EXACT SAME GOSPEL, the preached Jesus and the resurrection, they did not PREACH MOSES, nor the Law. But as time went on those who believed of the sect of the Pharisees who insisted that the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the law INCREASED in power and number over the apostles and Elders so that by the time Paul returned to Jerusalem, they had stirred up all the people, and were beginning again to have the power to persecute those of Christ who did not teach the gentiles they must be circumcised.

Acts 21:15 (many years AFTER the meeting in Acts 15) And after those days we took up our carriages, and went up to Jerusalem. There went with us also certain of the disciples of Caesarea, and brought with them one Mnason of Cyprus, an old disciple, with whom we should lodge. And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

These believing Jews were not upset because Paul taught a different gospel than any of the other apostles, they were upset because they had been LIED TO about what Paul was preaching. Paul NEVER taught the Jews that they did not have to keep the law of Moses nor circumcise their children nor walk after their customs. Yet Paul taught MANY JEWS that were out there among the Gentiles he taught. And he taught the SAME gospel, the same mystery and preached the same Christ, that all the other apostles preached. But because Paul did not teach the observances of the Law, and did not teach circumcision, they FALSELY accused him of actually teaching AGAINST IT, which he NEVER DID.

Because Paul observed all the requirements of the Law of Moses when he was with the Jews teaching and preaching Christ to them. And he observed ALL the requirements of the Law of CHRIST when he was with the Gentiles teaching and preaching to them.

1 Cor. 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me, what is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I BECAME AS A JEW, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law,(HE BECAME) as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

When Paul was with the Jews, he BECAME as a Jew under the Law, that he might preach Christ among them without offending them. All of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that taught the gospel did the exact same thing. When they were with the unbelieving Jews, or the believing Jews that were "weak" in the faith, they observed the Law of Moses regarding what you could eat and NOT eat, and they circumcised their own children. They observed ALL the Jewish laws and customs when they were with unbelieving Jews, or newly converted believing Jews, so as not to offend them and turn them away from hearing the gospel, that they might win some of them to Christ.

Anywhere the apostles and disciples of the Lord went among the nations to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God, a.k.a. the gospel of Christ, a.k.a. the gospel of Grace, a.k.a. the gospel of God, a.k.a. to Paul "his" or "my Gospel when he preached it, THEY ALL observed and respected the various customs of those to whom they went so as not to offend people, so as to win them to Christ. With the nation of Jews they became exactly like the Jews in ALL of their customs and Laws. When with the Gentiles they became like the Gentiles in the observance of their customs and laws whenever and wherever it was possible to do WITHOUT breaking the general Law of God that was applicable both under the Old and New Covenants, in that they did not bow down and serve other GODS, just to win the Gentiles.

ONE area where Paul himself choose not to partake of the Gentile customs was in the area of EATING. When among the Gentiles Paul kept all the same requirements of the Law regarding FOOD that was taught in the Law of Moses. This he did so as not to take ANY CHANCE WHATSOEVER, of offending any Jews who might accidentally see him eating a PORK SANDWICH, become offended and then not be able to hear what he had to say concerning Christ, SO THAT THEY TOO would someday be able to eat bacon and eggs without thinking they would rot in hell for it.

1 Cor. 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Another area that would have been BIG BUCKS $$$, besides getting a crisp hundred dollar bill for every Gentile foreskin, would have been selling the Gentiles KOSHER FOOD, which was something else the Pharisees were involved in that made them $$FILTHY LUCRE$$. The LOVE OF MONEY was why they went about to accuse Paul of teaching the Jews not to observe the laws of circumcision and the dietary laws. Yet Paul kept both, even taking Timothy who was half Jew and and half Greek and circumcising him, due to the Jewish, belief and custom of which anyone who was born of a Jewish woman WAS A JEW considered 100% Jewish, even if the father was a GENTILE. Therefore since Timothy was a JEW in the eyes of the JEWS Paul took him and circumcised him.

This shows clearly that Paul taught the same gospel all the other Apostles taught in that he did not teach the Law of Moses, but he did not teach AGAINST the Law of Moses, and observed all of it's customs, EXCEPT when it came to keeping company with Gentiles. However to the Gentiles he did teach against the Law of Moses in that he taught them they did not have to be circumcised.

Acts 16
1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. Him would Paul have to go forth with him;and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek. And as they went through the cities, (WHAT DID PAUL DO?) they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

All of these actions on the part of Paul would NOT be in keeping with the supposed new secret mystery Gospel claimed by many today that he preached ONLY to the Gentiles. The truth is that Paul became all things to all men that he might by all means save some of them.

1 Cor 16:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me, what is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Since Paul became as a Jew when with the Jews, and became as a Gentile when with the Gentiles, then WHY did Paul think he had the right to confront Peter for doing what seems to be the SAME thing?

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

WHY did Paul live as a Jew when with the Jews, and as a Gentile when with the Gentiles and then get all over Peter for doing the same thing? The answer lies in the REST OF THE STORY.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

It’s a simple as a clear-cut case here of “FOLLOW THE LEADER”.

Contined in next post because I can't seem to get the bold black letters to OBEY me....

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/12/2004 8:26 AM (GMT -6)

As we left off,

Paul had been going all over the place showing the Jews that he was observing the Law, and then when he was with the Gentiles living as they did? The answer lies in the REST OF THE STORY.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

It’s a simple as a clear-cut case here of “FOLLOW THE LEADER”.

Before those certain men of the sect of the Pharisees who believed (also called the circumcision, because they wanted to add circumcision to the gospel of Christ.)...before they came down to Antioch Peter was teaching and eating with the Gentiles just like Paul was. Then when the Pharisee boys showed up Peter got scared and separated himself from the Gentiles he’d been companying with and teaching the gospel. Had Peter stood strong when those certain men of the sect of the Pharisee’s came down, and stayed with the Gentiles, the other Jews who were also eating with the Gentiles would not have not have followed his lead, resulting in even Barnabas getting carried away from the truth of the gospel.

It’s just like in Braveheart where Mel Gibson as William Wallace tells Robert the Bruce that if he will stand strong and lead the Scott’s would follow him to freedom. And just like Robert the Bruce wimped out and followed the nobles loosing the advantage of NUMBERS and thus causing the Scott’s to be defeated. So also Peter out of fear of the Pharisee boys (something he’d had a problem with before.) withdrew and separated himself from the Gentile believers. Then the other Jews along with Barnabas followed with him. And what could have been nipped in the bud right then and there turned into a great big argument between Paul and the circumcision boys of the Pharisee’s, with the poor new Gentile converts to the faith standing right in the middle of the whole thing listening.

Peter in writing to the Galatians reveals details not given to the events of Acts 15. The following is a record of this event with that of Galatians in italics and Acts in regular font.

Acts 15 & Gal 2

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

And Peter before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him

When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, ;

insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

And Paul went up by revelation,

And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders,

Paul communicated unto them that gospel which he preached among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means he should run, or had run, in vain.

and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses

But neither Titus, who was with Paul, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out the liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing,

Paul saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, and said unto Peter before them all, “If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

(Pauls words reproved Peter, and he repented and once again gained the boldness in Christ to speak the truth.)

Then Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. And after they had held their peace,

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto Paul, they gave to Paul and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that Paul and Barnabas should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Only they would that Paul and Barnabas should remember the poor; the same which Paul was forward to do.

And James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner;

(DEAR BELOVED BELIEVING GENTILES,)

The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

(LOVE, XXXOOO
ALL us other apostles, elders and disciples of Jesus)

So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, Paul withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Paul confronted Peter twice. Once at the council in Jerusalme before all, and then later face to face over the matter. Peter however repented due to Paul's confrontation and reproof. What happened to Peter could happen to anyone, given the circumstances he was in. It is not that a person falls, but that they get back up and repent that counts in the end.

And again this is what caused the whole problem to begin with. Had Peter stood with Paul on the truth of the gospel the whole episode could have been avoided, and those of the circumcision stopped before it got out of hand as it did. Regardless, though Peter was a GREAT man of God, and taking courage from Paul’s stand repented and stood up in front of the Jerusalem council and spoke the truth. It is clear time upon time upon time, when you have enough scripture in evidence that Peter and Paul preached the EXACT SAME GOSPEL in the exact same way to both Jews and Gentiles, EVEN THOUGH their ministries were primarily directed at one group. Nevertheless it was THE SAME GOSPEL of the mystery of God, that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs with the Jews and partakers of the promises of God in Christ through the ONE Gospel.

In Christ,
larris

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

1way
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 299

Posted 6/12/2004 12:06 PM (GMT -6)

Larris - You posted 32.37 to 1, you to me, in terms of words and characters per person, and then averaged. To put that into perspective, if we were in a person to person conversation, I would make a one minuet clear cut statement, and you would respond for the next 32-33 minuets non-stop! When I was a truck driver, they'd say you have a crocodile computer, gigantic mouth, tiny ears.

The level of self focus and incongruity with what I am saying is monstrous. You quoted me saying.

quote:
The reason why the Jerusalem council ever even met, was because of doctrinal differences between the circumcision and the uncircumcision. Paul even summed up his defense argumentation as being that gospel that he preaches. If they taught the same exact gospel then it is not remotely reasonable to have needed to even entertain such a dispute. You should not invalidate one teaching with another.

To which you said

quote:
I understand why you think this since the term "circumcision" is used in THREE DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT WAYS in the Word.

FIRST it is used regarding the ACT of circumcision itself.

SECOND it is used as referring to all the Jews as a whole.

And THIRD it is used AFTER the establishment of the NEW COVENANT, to refer only to those JEWS who had believed yet INSISTED that along with believing on him you MUST ALSO 1. Keep the entire Law of Moses i.e. the sacrifices et. and 2. BE CIRCUMCISED.

I gave you a purely contextually derived broad overview of the entire event, and you say I'm all wet because I confuse the meaning of a word.

If you have posted, or will post, anything commensurate to what I have said, please indicate so, as I do not have the time to read your ridiculously long posts.

Just for the record, so far you have a wonderful batting average, you claimed to know exactly what I believe because you used to believe exactly as I do, yet you have basically gotten everything wrong about what I believe. Talk about being on a role. Big Smile

And don't forget, anytime your ready to deal with the topic and focus for this thread, be my guest.

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 6/12/2004 1:40 PM (GMT -6)

larris,

( As I have no direct participation in this tread, or others that you are responding to, you can feel free to ignore this suggestion )

You might try responding to 1way in two posts, one that details things as you have been doing ( I am completely enjoying the detailed "lessons" ) and one that provides a concise answer to 1way's post. Maybe a little bit of "all things to all people" .

peace, don

"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/12/2004 2:25 PM (GMT -6)

Larris,

Don, made a good point. If I ask a question, answer it and THEN provide your defense - it's much quicker to assimilate your responses that way. If your making a point, state it generally THEN substantiate with detail. I'm NOT saying your style is wrong, it's just I really am pressed for time, but I want to continue this debate as long as you want to.

wjs

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/13/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6)

1WAY,

Your wit is hilarious. Do you write for a living?? If not, you ought to. Or at least be a comedian!!

wjs

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