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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 6/19/2004 6:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | .
Greetings, Spen:
Oh, oh.
Sounds like the introduction to a new "Harry Potter" book!
Seriously, you've posed an interesting question -- with (potentially?) far-reaching ramifications.
Is there a risk that today's children, who adore
Harry Potter (& his clever use of "soccery, witchcraft, divination," etc.), may become "desensitized" to the real-life dangers of such?
What do you think?
Peace & blessings,
<><
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Spenlake wrote: quote:
“.....one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/19/2004 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | They are not calling up the "dead", they are calling up demons who impersonate the dead. Some Catholics do so in praying to DEAD SAINTS, they make them little altars, where in are gifts that the spirit likes. One such example of such regards a co worker of mines mother who prays to and calls up a spirit, which she thinks is a "saint". I do not remember the name of the saint. But she has an alter to him and an offering of whisky and a ciggerette. The whiskey dissapears and the ciggerett lites itself. As she herself states this is WHITE MAGIC.
I told my co-worker that it is simply "White arts black arts it's all the same one cleaver devil with two cleaver names." And proceeded to tell him the truth of such, since he also has a black spirit following him around, which he sees and which his "mother" told him was his dead Grandfather protecting him. It is really a devil spirit which he inheritied from the idolatry of his family, who were never taught the truth. And devils are mearly evil angels, hence it comes down to "worshipping angels".
God is a jealous God, we are espoused to ONE HUSBAND. Being a CHristian and praciticing "white magic" is like cheating on your husband. To explain this to my co-worker I asked him how it would make him feel if his wife went out and found a new boyfriend, and wanted to have both him and her boyfriend. He said "I'd kick her...."
I said well OK then you know how it makes God feel, when people mix the worship of him with that of angles or "saints" or practice magic.
They are originally from South America where just to get easy converts the RCC allows them to rename their devils with saints names and keep praying to them. BOY talk about the opinion of not attacking the "beliefs" of others, they perform that ecumenical doctrine to perfection in letting all the countries in which they have become the prime religion just keep on worshipping demons in the guise of christian names.
Now the RCC has started and promotes this whole line of thinking that we are just to "tolerate" these beliefs and not say anything against such that might "offend" anyone who holds to them. I took a GREAT chance in offending my co-worker in speaking the truth, but I had to speak. What, I'm not going to WARN someone that a spirit they have hanging around that they literally SEE on occasion is not a good spirit, and here he's got a family and small children. They have let a THUG into their house that has at the least no good intentions towards them. People would not let a visible evil human being in their house, but they let these thugs in all the time.
If God's ministers would speak the truth the people would have followed it. And now we get told we are "mean" when we state the truth that these things are idolatry. Why not just accept these things and all be one big happy family.
(Oh opps excuse me was any of what I said there "religiously un-correct"?)
In christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/19/2004 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen,
Here is my scriptural opinion on what you asked.
You stated: My question, however, more concerns what the scriptures mean by "one who inquires of the dead." In what context is it necromancy and forbidden? Is there any case where we can commune with the dead and have it be acceptable and pleasing to God?
I would say that there is no condition under which we are to commune with the dead, because those who commune with the dead are said to have a "familiar spirit". Notice what 1 Chronicles 10:13 states.
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;"
Scripture makes it clear that any type of this is committing spiritual whoredom against the Lord.
Lev. 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
Even in the New Testament, those who used curious arts were to repent of such practice. Acts speaks of them all bringing their books that taught such things and burning them.
Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
Satan often comes as an angel of light, hence any "good" he might seem to do, in the end will wind a person cut off from God's people if they do not repent.
You stated: I am sure that God meant something when He spoke his commands and prohibitions in Deut 18. We see Saul seeking to speak with the dead when he looks for Samuel. He wanted to hear what God wanted to tell Him. Apparently, Saul's appetite for "revelation" or a word from God was extremely strong.
Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Saul might have had an appitite for revelation, but he lost his revelation to begin with because of his disobedience to it. To then go to one who was manipulated by devils was the final straw and led to his death.
You asked: Aside from some Catholics, do these same practives still happen in the church?
IN ABUNDANCE! There are untold numbers of Christians who seek these things even though they go to Church. Therefore these things happen in the Church. Primarily because the Church for the most part has failed to teach the truth of such matters. And secondly because just like Saul and so many in Israel, people do not have any respect for God's word, they think he dose not mean what he says.
The woman who prays to a saint, is not in reality praying to a saint, but a DEMON with the name of a saint. IF the demon helps her, it simply dose so to keep her alligence to it, and keep her deceived. In the end it will bring destruction to her both temporally and eternally.
The woman should not only considder it, she should repent and follow what the scriptures say. But she probably has no idea, as many Catholics don't that the saints they pray to are devils and not people up there in heaven watching over them. Maybe what I told her son will take root and someday he will learn the truth and be able to get it across to his mother. If not she's pretty much doomed in the end. I know people do not like to hear that, but that is the penalty that God has stated not me.
1 cor 10:20
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Paul made it clear that we cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of devils, and that we should not fellowship with devils. Now he was primarily speaking about eating food that YOU KNEW was sacrificed to demons, how much more so to just blatently go and conjure one up and talk to him.
mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
We are to cast devils OUT not conjure them up and ask their advice.
1 tim. 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
They are our ENEMY, they are what we truly fight against.
Eph. 6:12
For we wrestel not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places.
In the end when Christ comes to straighten all this mess out permenently, many not only unbelievers but believers also who seek to these things, will refuse to repent.
Rev. 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils,
It is a VERY serious thing, because if you enquire after them you open yourself up to get used and possessed by them.
For instance speaking of devils in the Church, an interesting phenomina is the Toronto Blessing Movement, now they just down right get possessed in Church, so I guess you could say this thing is prevailent in the Church. Besides I have known many Christians, come to think of it, that were posessed in general with all kinds of wicked spirits, therefore I guess worshipping demons is pretty common.
Devils can enter into your life even if you do not overtly go to a medium or seek to talk to the dead. All you have to do is just refuse to obey God on a constant basis. Devils are allowed into your life by what you practice on a habitual level. If you practice fornication you will receive a spirit of LUST. If you practice hatred you will recieve a spirit of MURDER, now the laws might prevent you from actually murdering someone, but you have the spirit non the less.
Paul cast a spirit out of a woman in Acts, called the spirit of "divination". Again as I said, we aren't to cummune with them we are to kick their rears out of hour heads, houses and any friends that need a little help now and then.
WE tell THEM what to do, not visa versa. We got the power not them, Jesus took it from them and became the head of all principality and powers, and as his disciples we over rule them in both power and authority.
If we want to know ANYTHING all we have to do is ASK GOD who give wisdom to all men liberally that ask him. Devils are extremely jealous of us and our relationship with him. Therefore they seek to deceive us into thinking that they can know something we cannot. Paul said in the end we would be the ones to JUDGE ANGELS. Devils are mearly evil angels that present themselves in varrious fashions to deceive men, be it spirits, gods, devils your old dead grandmother etc.
In essence they are just like human beings. They have the same type of thought patterns, and emotions. BUT they are for the most part invisible. Now if you could see them for what they are, you would NEVER allow them in your house. But because they are invisible people tend to let them come in and tromp all over their heads. They are forbidden to out right kill you, so they do the next best thing. They get you to be deceived and kill yourself. They are the spirit scum of the earth, and need to be treated as such. We do NOT reverance or worship them nor take advice from them.
love in Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/21/2004 2:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
Hi Spen,
Here is my scriptural opinion on what you asked.
You stated: My question, however, more concerns what the scriptures mean by "one who inquires of the dead." In what context is it necromancy and forbidden? Is there any case where we can commune with the dead and have it be acceptable and pleasing to God?
I would say that there is no condition under which we are to commune with the dead, because those who commune with the dead are said to have a "familiar spirit". Notice what 1 Chronicles 10:13 states.
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;"
Scripture makes it clear that any type of this is committing spiritual whoredom against the Lord.
Lev. 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
Even in the New Testament, those who used curious arts were to repent of such practice. Acts speaks of them all bringing their books that taught such things and burning them.
Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
Satan often comes as an angel of light, hence any "good" he might seem to do, in the end will wind a person cut off from God's people if they do not repent.
You stated: I am sure that God meant something when He spoke his commands and prohibitions in Deut 18. We see Saul seeking to speak with the dead when he looks for Samuel. He wanted to hear what God wanted to tell Him. Apparently, Saul's appetite for "revelation" or a word from God was extremely strong.
Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Saul might have had an appitite for revelation, but he lost his revelation to begin with because of his disobedience to it. To then go to one who was manipulated by devils was the final straw and led to his death.
You asked: Aside from some Catholics, do these same practives still happen in the church?
IN ABUNDANCE! There are untold numbers of Christians who seek these things even though they go to Church. Therefore these things happen in the Church. Primarily because the Church for the most part has failed to teach the truth of such matters. And secondly because just like Saul and so many in Israel, people do not have any respect for God's word, they think he dose not mean what he says.
The woman who prays to a saint, is not in reality praying to a saint, but a DEMON with the name of a saint. IF the demon helps her, it simply dose so to keep her alligence to it, and keep her deceived. In the end it will bring destruction to her both temporally and eternally.
The woman should not only considder it, she should repent and follow what the scriptures say. But she probably has no idea, as many Catholics don't that the saints they pray to are devils and not people up there in heaven watching over them. Maybe what I told her son will take root and someday he will learn the truth and be able to get it across to his mother. If not she's pretty much doomed in the end. I know people do not like to hear that, but that is the penalty that God has stated not me.
1 cor 10:20
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Paul made it clear that we cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of devils, and that we should not fellowship with devils. Now he was primarily speaking about eating food that YOU KNEW was sacrificed to demons, how much more so to just blatently go and conjure one up and talk to him.
mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
We are to cast devils OUT not conjure them up and ask their advice.
1 tim. 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
They are our ENEMY, they are what we truly fight against.
Eph. 6:12
For we wrestel not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places.
In the end when Christ comes to straighten all this mess out permenently, many not only unbelievers but believers also who seek to these things, will refuse to repent.
Rev. 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils,
It is a VERY serious thing, because if you enquire after them you open yourself up to get used and possessed by them.
For instance speaking of devils in the Church, an interesting phenomina is the Toronto Blessing Movement, now they just down right get possessed in Church, so I guess you could say this thing is prevailent in the Church. Besides I have known many Christians, come to think of it, that were posessed in general with all kinds of wicked spirits, therefore I guess worshipping demons is pretty common.
Devils can enter into your life even if you do not overtly go to a medium or seek to talk to the dead. All you have to do is just refuse to obey God on a constant basis. Devils are allowed into your life by what you practice on a habitual level. If you practice fornication you will receive a spirit of LUST. If you practice hatred you will recieve a spirit of MURDER, now the laws might prevent you from actually murdering someone, but you have the spirit non the less.
Paul cast a spirit out of a woman in Acts, called the spirit of "divination". Again as I said, we aren't to cummune with them we are to kick their rears out of hour heads, houses and any friends that need a little help now and then.
WE tell THEM what to do, not visa versa. We got the power not them, Jesus took it from them and became the head of all principality and powers, and as his disciples we over rule them in both power and authority.
If we want to know ANYTHING all we have to do is ASK GOD who give wisdom to all men liberally that ask him. Devils are extremely jealous of us and our relationship with him. Therefore they seek to deceive us into thinking that they can know something we cannot. Paul said in the end we would be the ones to JUDGE ANGELS. Devils are mearly evil angels that present themselves in varrious fashions to deceive men, be it spirits, gods, devils your old dead grandmother etc.
In essence they are just like human beings. They have the same type of thought patterns, and emotions. BUT they are for the most part invisible. Now if you could see them for what they are, you would NEVER allow them in your house. But because they are invisible people tend to let them come in and tromp all over their heads. They are forbidden to out right kill you, so they do the next best thing. They get you to be deceived and kill yourself. They are the spirit scum of the earth, and need to be treated as such. We do NOT reverance or worship them nor take advice from them.
love in Christ,
larris
Larris,
I agree with your strong stand against necromancy and that it continues to be practiced today. Could there be any exceptions to this? I mean, could Jesus lead us into necromancy and have that make it OK? Could Jesus lead us into spiritual experiences with the dead for our benefit?
I was considering this regarding the incident where Jesus Himself spoke with the dead Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. I was wondering why this wasn't necromancy. The passage is below from Matthew and Luke.quote:
Matthew 17:1, "Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone."
Luke 9:28, "Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying. While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen."
I find the details of the passage extremely interesting. In both instances Jesus is not speaking with Moses and Elijah as a normal man. He is in His glorified body as He is speaking. Luke says that "they saw His glory." God can speak to whoever He wishes to. He is the God of the living and to Him Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob still live (Matt 22:32). In addition, the disciples did not speak to the dead. Luke says specifically that they were overcome with sleep when this was happening. They simply "saw" glorified Jesus with Moses and Elijah. They did not seek the dead for guidance.
Thus, I don't think that this incident is necromancy. A glorified Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah. The disciples were told by God Himself though a voice from heaven where they were to get guidance and who they were to listen to. “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” We don't consult the dead, we are told by God to listen to His Son, come in the flesh as a man who spoke real words with a real mouth that were recorded by these men for our instruction. The voice from heaven affirmed and confessed the Jesus that came in the flesh, according to 1 John 4:2, "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;"
Spen Lake
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/21/2004 7:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen,
You stated: I agree with your strong stand against necromancy and that it continues to be practiced today. Could there be any exceptions to this? I mean, could Jesus lead us into necromancy and have that make it OK? Could Jesus lead us into spiritual experiences with the dead for our benefit?
Spen, I would be REALLY CAREFUL of heading off in that direction of thought. Especially since Peter mentions that experience and makes aboslutely no reference to any experiences with the dead, but rather then immediately refers us to the Word of God.
2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance hsall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be negligent ot put you always in remebrance of htse things, though you know them, and be established in the present truth. yea, I think it meet as long as I am in this tabernacle to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ has showed me.
Moreover I will endeavor that you may be able to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the pwoer and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honor and glory, WHEN there came a such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard when we were with him in the holy mount. We also have a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first that any prophecy of scripture......
Without getting into how he is next warning here about false teachers that will corrupt the teachings of scripture, his first main point here is that of the our entrance into the Kingdom of God at the RETURN of CHRIST. He also speaks of the fact that he will soon die, and that he therefore has endeavored that those he is writing to will always have "these things" in remembrance. Hence he is stressing the written word, and not communication with the dead.
Another thing he makes clear about the event on the Mount when Jesus was transfiggured was that it was a vison of the FUTURE. Notice the context he puts it in.
FOR we have not followed cunningly devised fables when we made known unto you the POWER AND COMING (as in his return) of our Lord Jesus Christ. But were eye witnesses of his majesty (having a vision of him in GLORY, as to what he would be in the FUTURE.) FOR he received from God the FAther honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. And this voice we heard when we were with him in the holy mount.
Notice he makes no mention whatsoever of Moses and Elisha. This is one of those situation where God calls things that are not as though they are. Jesus was not yet cricified and resurrected. This was a vision of his resurrection and in the future to the point of THE RESURRECTION, when Moses and Elisha would be resurrected.
Peter's context here is the future, when Christ will resurrect the dead.
Notice what Paul said about the dead in Christ.
1 Thes. 4:But I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrwo not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we shich are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (preceed, begathered to gether before they are raised from the dead.) them which are alseep
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangels, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST, shall rise FIRST: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one antothere with THESE WORDS.
Both Moses and Elisha are "IN CHIRST" and dead and will be raised from the dead at the time Paul speaks of here. All the O.T. believers who looked forward to his FIRST comming are just as much IN CHRIST as those of us who look forward to his second coming in GLORY. Remember they saw him with Moses and Elisha in GLORY. That connection allways deals with his second coming and the resurrection of the JUST.
If we could talk to our real dead loved ones, Paul would not have told the believers at his time "But I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrw ont, even as others which have not hope."
The "hope" always refers to the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead, along with whoever in Christ is alive at that time being caught up together with them to be with the Lord. It is AT THAT TIME, that you will be reunited with your loved ones IF they died IN Christ.
And again it is with these WORDS, the words of truth that we are comforted not with a visit from a supposed dead person. Only those who do not know the truth, and therefore do not have that hope, resort to conjuring up the dead, and having spiritual experiences with them. However it is not the dead they are talking to but FAMILIAR SPIRITS.
A FAMILIAR SPIRIT is a spirit that knows everything there is to know about the dead person in question and takes on that persons identity, because he is FAMILIAR with it. Spirits hand around familes and know pretty much everything that goes on. At one time they saw something happen that perhaps only YOU and the dead person in question would have known. BUT they know it also, since they SAW or HEARD it take place.
Hence they come disguised as that person you love, and can tell you remember that time...... and you are drawn in because you do not understand how the spirit world works, nor the truth of the resurrection. And by this means the deceive many well meaning people who are just looking for some comfort regarding their dead loved ones.
These spirits especially prey on the very young. Many children have had experiences where a dead loved one showed up in their room at night. And from that point on that child because he has and never will be taught the truth, believes that his dead grandpa watches over him and is alive somewhere.
Hence how people got to praying to dead people. But dead people are DEAD until such a time as either the resurrection of the Just of the unjust.
Ecc. 9:4 For to him that is joined to the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward: for the memory of them is forgotten. ALSO their love, and their hatred, and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
The dead are DEAD and have no hope without the future resurrection. Spirit's know this and endeavor to deceive men into thinking the dead are alive and well somewhere right at this time, and can visit you and help you. But this all goes back to the ORIGINAL LIE, that Satan perpitrated on Adam and Eve "YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE."
Immitating the dead is simply another angle of coming at man kind to deceive them, that "YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE". No you are existing somewhere as an angel or spirit et. For the Christian who knows and accepts the truth, that truth is that there is none alive until the Resurrection. This is our hope, this is what we are to comfort one antother with, with the true WORDS of scripture.
You of course have the right to believe as you wish. If you wish to believe that Jesus will lead us into spiritual experiences with the dead for our benefit, then you have that right. However tempting and alluring that might be, it is well to remember that no where in the New Testament are we told to seek those things. Nor are we told that Jesus would do such. And Peter writing later never even mentions Moses and Elisha. Rather he directs us not even to the words he HEARD but to the MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY the WORD OF GOD.
It is that word that tells you clearly that seeking the dead will get you in a lot of trouble. If you want to know about the dead, God says to seek the answers from him, not a spirit and not a person with a spirit (familiar spirit) in them. It is well to remember that Paul said to both the Galations and the Ephesians that there was ANOTHER JESUS. If something came along portreying itself as JESUS, and gave you an experiece with the dead, that comforted you or benefited you in any way, I would question as to weather or not it was the REAL Jesus or that OTHER Jesus, the deceiver. For he will endeavor to get you to do exactly what the Word of God states that you should not do.
It is the written Word of God that is our rule of faith and practice. Even all the things in the Old Testament were written for a specific purpose for us.
1Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(See what I mean, they are IN Christ also, though in a different way, in that they looked forward to him, he would come the first time AFTER them and yet IN GLORY in the same way to all of us.)
[Please pay close attention to what Paul says next here, in this context.)
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. NOT THESE THINGS WERE OUR EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: AND THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION, {That is for our WARNING. These things in the OT are written for our WARNING, including those things that happened to Saul in seeking to speak with Samuel.) upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: (talking with the dead or having those experiences is a COMMON TEMPTATION.) (but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
The way to escape from the temptation to experience speaking or seeing the dead, is to hear and believe the truth and have the true knowledge of the hope that is personally yours.
14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
The Gentiles sacrificed things to what they considdered many times to be their "dead" ancestors. Devils come in many guises, to commune with the dead is a form of Idolatry. To seek such experiences makes you a partaker of the table of devils. And Paul says you CANNOT partake of BOTH tables. The devil knows this and so promotes experiences with the dead, rather than the LIVING RISEN CHRIST, which comes by beliving the WRITTEN WORD, and coming to a knowledge of the truth.
You cannot always help it if you happen to have such an experience, BUT you can recognize it for what it is and tell that demon to skidattle, when you know the truth. It really comes down to who you are going to believe. There is much more evidence in the Word that we should not seek experiences with the dead, or even that Jesus would give us such and experience. But there is also much evidence that such things are very tempting to man. And one of the biggest problems with such is that you do not just effect yourself, if you get led into such, but others many times follow you in such beliefs.
Do you really want to take a chance in leading others into a form of idolatry against the Lord? For in essence to practice such is not speaking to the dead but the voluntary worshipping of angels, EVIL angels that would lead you away from the truth, and enfest as many other believers with the practice as possible.
I hope something I have said here makes some sense, and leads you to again think serriously about thinking Jesus would lead us in this day and time into such experiences. For thinking such opens you up to actually having such experiences, since it opens up a door to deceiving spirits.
God bless you,
In the Love of Christ,
larris
I was considering this regarding the incident where Jesus Himself spoke with the dead Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. I was wondering why this wasn't necromancy. The passage is below from Matthew and Luke.
quote:
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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PhilTheThrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 6/21/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | I think it's quite a bit much to characterize the catholic practice of praying to saints as necromancy. I'm not a catholic, nor do I pray to saints (though I have an affinity for St. Michael, patron of police officers), but I think there is a world of difference between necromancy/sorcery and catholicism.
When a catholic invokes a saint, it is with the thought that the saint being entreated is in the presence of God in heaven and that this saint has been appointed to watch over people of a particular profession or hobby. The catholic does not attempt to use arcane rituals to summon spirits from the dead and bring them here to earth. He simply asks the saint in heaven to use his clout with God to pass along a request. Is this a theologically solid concept? Not particularly. Is it necromancy? Of course not.
I certainly don't think saint are demons in disguise. They were real people (except Michael who is an archangel), godly people. Invoking a saint is talking to someone in God's presence, how could it be demon-worship or whatever?
Real necromancy would be akin to playing with ouija boards and up to and including the dark magickal arts. | | Back to Top | | |
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PhilTheThrill
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 6/22/2004 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Why do you say that "real necromancy would be akin to ouija boards and the dark magickal arts" instead of Larris' example.
The ouija board isn't mentioned by name in the Bible and yet you consider it bad. Why?
Well, the quick response would be that real magick and things like ouija boards are an attempt to conjure the dead here on earth, to attempt to manifest spirits down here in our realm. Prayer to a saint is more like talking to a dead loved one, like visiting their grave but talking to them out loud as if they are listening from heaven. I dont believe most catholics attempt to summon the dead bodily to earth, which is the essence of necromancy. They are simply asking a respected and godly person to "pass along a message" to God since they are in his presence and presumably in his favor. Really, it's the same as asking your friend to pray for you, you're just asking a friend a lot closer to God. As I said, I dont believe this is particularly scriptural (as in, its not demonstrated for us), but I'm also not really worried about it. People who do it generally do it with a pure heart and a desire to live a Godly life. They want the saints that have come before us to pray for them just as our friends and family do. It certainly isnt necromancy.
I guess I dont hold this view so much from scripture as from just a knowledge and study of the occult. There is real magick out there that truly does commune with demons and attempts the summoning of the dead and the manipulation of dark forces. I dont think the recognition of saints is anywhere near that. Would you honestly put a silent prayer to Saint Michael on the same level as a black mass, a drug-induced orgy, a seance, or any of the other hallmarks of the truly occult?
Having studied (not practiced!) the occult arts for a number of years, I can tell you that it's a big misplacement of focus when we condemn saints as demons or, say, Harry Potter as evil. There is true and dangerous evil out there and we minimize real threats by wasting our time on innocuous issues.
I realize if you truly see saints as demons in disguise, then of course this isn't an innocuous issue. I just dont see how you could consider a Godly person who has passed on as a demon in disguise. | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/22/2004 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Phil,
Bother I think you misunderstood what I was talking about in some respects. You said: I certainly don't think saint are demons in disguise.
I did not mean that "Saints were demons in disguise". But rather that demons "can" come disguised as saints. An alternative example would be the difference between a "Police officer disquised as a criminal", and a "Criminal disguised as a police officer."
2 Cor. 14:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Satan dose not come as the angel of darkness, he starts out innocently as an angel of light. Introducing something that seems harmless, sweet and innocent. Once what seems harmless, sweet and innocent is accepted it plants the spiritual seed in that person to eventually go on to "bigger and badder" things. Now will they always go on to bigger and badder things? No, but the chances are mush better that they will if "groomed" rightly.
Is Harry Potter sweet and innocent? Seemingly harmless? Yes, but in reality what dose it promote? It promotes witchcraft, that opens up the door to bigger and badder things later on. Dose that mean that every child that watches Harry Potter and buys all the toys and plays "witches and warlocks" rather than "cowboys and indians" will become witches and warlocks"? No it dose not, but the fact is that they are all still "playing" witchcraft" and this opens them up to the spirit world, when and if they choose to go on with it.
Innocent? It seems so on the surface. Harmless, absolutely not in the long run. If you are a police officer I am sure you have heard of the term "grooming". Grooming is when an older person takes a younger person and "grooms" them into a position where they can victumize them. It starts out innocently enough, such as a pedophile taking your son out for icecream, or on a camping trip. But they are grooming them for their own personal use LATER.
All of these things of which we are talking, be it praying to your dead loved one, praying to angels, or playing Harry Potter, are all forms of "spiritual grooming". Things that start out innocently and on the surface seem harmless, but indeed eventually lead many into the very depths of darkness.
For instance you say that praying to a loved on in the presence of God is not necromancy. Well in most cases the dead loved one dose not get conjured up. However in other cases the dead loved one dose get conjured up. For instance many saints, especially "Mary" get conjured up all the time. I guess the question would be is it REALLY Mary, or is it a spirit of darkness coming as a spirit of light to deceive. Is it a true saint? Or is it a demon disguesed as a saint, doing a little "identitiy theft", for the purpose of advantage? Namely to get your worship.
For these saints are not just prayed to they are "worshiped" and the Word of God strictly forbids and warns against putting anyting up there in the palce of or along side of God. Why talk to a dead loved on that you believe "might" be in the presence of God, when you are assured by the Word of God that God himself hears you, and that ONLY JESUS is in the actual presence of God? And even in praying to Michael the arch angel, that is praying to angels, something else that is forbidden in scripture.
Col. 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
God makes no distinction between good and bad witchcraft, or just "playing" witchcraft.
Gal. 5:18 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Again, what starts out as innocent enough is most often just a type of "grooming" people for bigger and badder things.
In my day, back in the late 70's and 80's it was Dungens and Dragons. My little brother got into it and my Mom thought there was nothing wrong with it. I told them both in no uncertain terms that it could lead to really bad things. They both thought I was just a Christian NUT. Now all these years later there are case histories of Kids that got into such that led into heavy witchcraft and murder, and it's a ducumentable fact.
One night when my Mom was not around I had a heart to heart talk with my brother who was only about 10 on the issue and told him about God's love and how and why Dungens and Dragons was evil and could get him into trouble. He did not drop it off immediately but within a year he lost interest, and it a real well rounded honest kid today, with no major hangups. I believe because I stood on the truth in love, with BOTH of them, it helped keep him out of a lot of trouble later in life.
The problem as I see it in Christianty's attempts to speak against these things, there is no real clear teaching from the Word on the subject of just WHY it's all so bad. But even when on occasion there is, people get offended. You have to see these demonic forces, just like you would see an organized crime syndicate. They work just like theives and conmen to get people deceived. A conman never comes right out and displays himself for what he really is. He gently leads the victum to where he wants him to be. Pimps often pose as benefactors, telling a woman they can help her get a job, and then eventually getting her to the place where she is captive to them and must become a prostitute. Satan is that same in all his works towards the children of men coming as an innocent angel of light seeming harmless enough and even benificial, but ultimately leading that person into darkness.
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/22/2004 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PhilTheThrill
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Why do you say that "real necromancy would be akin to ouija boards and the dark magickal arts" instead of Larris' example.
The ouija board isn't mentioned by name in the Bible and yet you consider it bad. Why?
Well, the quick response would be that real magick and things like ouija boards are an attempt to conjure the dead here on earth, to attempt to manifest spirits down here in our realm. Prayer to a saint is more like talking to a dead loved one, like visiting their grave but talking to them out loud as if they are listening from heaven. I dont believe most catholics attempt to summon the dead bodily to earth, which is the essence of necromancy. They are simply asking a respected and godly person to "pass along a message" to God since they are in his presence and presumably in his favor. Really, it's the same as asking your friend to pray for you, you're just asking a friend a lot closer to God. As I said, I dont believe this is particularly scriptural (as in, its not demonstrated for us), but I'm also not really worried about it. People who do it generally do it with a pure heart and a desire to live a Godly life. They want the saints that have come before us to pray for them just as our friends and family do. It certainly isnt necromancy.
I guess I dont hold this view so much from scripture as from just a knowledge and study of the occult. There is real magick out there that truly does commune with demons and attempts the summoning of the dead and the manipulation of dark forces. I dont think the recognition of saints is anywhere near that. Would you honestly put a silent prayer to Saint Michael on the same level as a black mass, a drug-induced orgy, a seance, or any of the other hallmarks of the truly occult?
Having studied (not practiced!) the occult arts for a number of years, I can tell you that it's a big misplacement of focus when we condemn saints as demons or, say, Harry Potter as evil. There is true and dangerous evil out there and we minimize real threats by wasting our time on innocuous issues.
I realize if you truly see saints as demons in disguise, then of course this isn't an innocuous issue. I just dont see how you could consider a Godly person who has passed on as a demon in disguise.
Phil,
Larris was saying that in the case of the mother of the man he knew, an actual demon was abusing the situation and disguising itself as the saint she thought she was praying to. Granted, the Catholics who pray to the saints do so with the belief that they are talking with the actual saints, but Larris is saying that demons are using that situation and answering their prayers in the names of these saints - pretending to be those saints.
I have often wondered if it's wrong to talk to a deceased loved one. My mom says she talks to her father sometimes, and I always thought that God doesn't like that, because the focus is on the wrong person - the focus should always be solely on God. When sin entered the world, death became the great divider between the living and the dead. Therefore, it's really rather ridiculous to still try to communicate with those who have passed on. It's like people still haven't learned the lesson that sin separates us from God and those we love who have died. It sort of reduces the magnitude of our concept of sin. Plus, humans who have passed on aren't omniscient like God. They're probably not even capable of hearing us most of the time or at all because I'm sure they're off doing other things, or maybe in some type of holding place until the great resurrection of everyone.
Finally, Jesus came to be the one and only person through whom we need to get to God the Father. To think that we need to use other dead humans to talk to Jesus or the Father is a real insult to Jesus' work on the cross. He Himself is exactly what Catholics try to make the saints into. Whenever they do that, it's like they're saying that what Jesus did wasn't enough to talk to the Father one on one - blasphemy!
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/22/2004 2:28 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Phil says,
Well, the quick response would be that real magick and things like ouija boards are an attempt to conjure the dead here on earth, to attempt to manifest spirits down here in our realm. Prayer to a saint is more like talking to a dead loved one, like visiting their grave but talking to them out loud as if they are listening from heaven. I dont believe most catholics attempt to summon the dead bodily to earth, which is the essence of necromancy. They are simply asking a respected and godly person to "pass along a message" to God since they are in his presence and presumably in his favor. Really, it's the same as asking your friend to pray for you, you're just asking a friend a lot closer to God. As I said, I dont believe this is particularly scriptural (as in, its not demonstrated for us), but I'm also not really worried about it. People who do it generally do it with a pure heart and a desire to live a Godly life. They want the saints that have come before us to pray for them just as our friends and family do. It certainly isnt necromancy.
I guess I dont hold this view so much from scripture as from just a knowledge and study of the occult. There is real magick out there that truly does commune with demons and attempts the summoning of the dead and the manipulation of dark forces. I dont think the recognition of saints is anywhere near that. Would you honestly put a silent prayer to Saint Michael on the same level as a black mass, a drug-induced orgy, a seance, or any of the other hallmarks of the truly occult?
Having studied (not practiced!) the occult arts for a number of years, I can tell you that it's a big misplacement of focus when we condemn saints as demons or, say, Harry Potter as evil. There is true and dangerous evil out there and we minimize real threats by wasting our time on innocuous issues.
I realize if you truly see saints as demons in disguise, then of course this isn't an innocuous issue. I just dont see how you could consider a Godly person who has passed on as a demon in disguise.
Larris,
Phil states that the issue may not be too dangerous if one isn't attempting to bodily bring the dead into our realm. Wouldn't experiencing the dead now while we live be within this definition. I was wondering if you thought that "experiencing the dead" in some kind of spiritual experience would be wrong and forbidden? I am not sure that Phil sees this as being forbidden by scriptures. It seems to me that in Deut 18 the essence of necromancy is "communicating" with the dead in any fashion, not calling them up bodily into our realm. I think that your explanations are strong and that scriptures would call any spiritual experience with the dead as something forbidden. I don't think that it means "bodily" as much as it means "experientially." I think that this is clear in the case of Saul in which the medium "experienced" the impression of the spirit of Samuel, not Saul. Saul was seeking to communicate with Samuel and was looking for a way to do it. This woman happened to be the way.
What is your take on this from the scriptures? Are spiritual experiences with the dead forbidden outright with no exceptions? We can remember the dead but to "interact" with them at any level would be wrong?
Spen Lake
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/23/2004 1:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen,
Yes I think you are right about not a "bodily" conjuring so to speak but an "experince". I don't think that you can always keep from having "experiences", but I do think that if they happen that we should recognize them for what they are according to the truth of the Word of God. I definately do not think a person should wish for them or seek them in any way. I think that is really aksing for trouble, even if it seems benign or innocent or even benificial. Because in the long run I do not believe it will be any of those things.
I think that a lot of misunderstanding and eventual deception that people fall into is from not clearly understanding the resurrection of the dead which Jesus and the apostles taught. And from not understanding as well as refusing to believe what happens to a person when they die.
I personally believe from my own study that the belief that a person is existing somewhere conscious in heaven is a perversion of a great truth regarding one aspect of the resurrection of the Just, an event that will take place in the last days.
Once someone knows and is committed to the truth of these things any argument or question regarding them becomes crystal clear. Because then you know that any experience you may have with the dead, is not actually with the dead, but with demons posing as the dead, to perpitrate the original lie "thou shalt not surely die". Therefore if what we think is the dead can only be demons, then to interact with them in any manner would in fact be wrong. When the word says that you CANNOT partake of the Lord's table and the table of devils it means just that. Once you cross that line and interact with devils posing as the dead, you have "crossed over" (no pun intended).
Many people interact with what they think are the dead, and then go to Church, believe in God, in Jesus, read the Bible, pray et. But this is all to no avial IF they are mixing the worship of God with the fellowship of devils. God is a jealous God, and we can only be the virginal bride of Christ, if we are faithful to him only.
Paul called the HOPE of SALVATION the HELMET of the armour of God. Hope is always connected with the resurrection of the dead. Our hope of salvation is the resurrection of the dead. For without the resurrection all men continue in the grave in corruption and in an unconscious state. Howbeit Paul called it "sleep" in that to the man that dies, the moment of his personal death is TO HIM the moment of his resurrection to either the resurrection of the just or the unjust.
So in essence to that man there is no sense of time, even if he died 2000 years ago, since TO HIM the very next thing he knows is that he is raised and with the Lord. Hence the loss of this understanding was perverted into going directly to heaven, being in a conscious state and therefore with God. And since it is then believed the person is with God, perhaps available to make intercession for you.
That God guards and protects the souls and or spirits of them that die in Christ, is another matter than being raised from the dead at the return of Christ. But people do not like hearing that a man is DEAD since the belief that you go immediately to heaven is so very strong in Christianity. Yet the Bible directly states that you are in a state of unconsciousness, and calls it SLEEP many times.
To me personally I do not care if one is immediately in heaven or in heaven later at the resurrection, I just want to believe the truth whatever it may be. I no longer have "personal" preferences. And thus I believe that all men who have died are in the grave awaiting judgment and the resurrection of the body.
In everything I do not care what it turns out to be, I just want to know the truth, and I am assured, we all are assured that if we continue in the Word of Christ, to become his disciples we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. I think a lot of that is to be free from false concepts, that lead us away from the God we are trying to get closer to.
God bless you
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 6/23/2004 7:45 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Good Morning, Spen:
What is the application of your philosophy upon youngsters
IN TODAY'S CULTURE?
I'm just thinking out loud here -- but, if your train of thought
is further expanded, are you inferring that the millions of parents worldwide (yes, this includes countless Christian families) who buy their sons & daughters Harry Potter books as Christmas gifts (and/or accompany their children to the theater to watch the latest Harry Potter movie) -- are treading on dangerous ground?
In your opinion, exactly where should the line be drawn??
Peace & blessings,
<><
Spen wrote: quote:
A key passage is Deut 18:10
“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."
Larris wrote:
quote:
Satan dose not come as the angel of darkness, he starts out innocently as an angel of light. Introducing something that seems harmless, sweet and innocent. Once what seems harmless, sweet and innocent is accepted it plants the spiritual seed in that person to eventually go on to "bigger and badder" things. Now will they always go on to bigger and badder things? No, but the chances are mush better that they will if "groomed" rightly.
Is Harry Potter sweet and innocent? Seemingly harmless? Yes, but in reality what dose it promote? It promotes witchcraft, that opens up the door to bigger and badder things later on. Dose that mean that every child that watches Harry Potter and buys all the toys and plays "witches and warlocks" rather than "cowboys and indians" will become witches and warlocks"? No it dose not, but the fact is that they are all still "playing" witchcraft" and this opens them up to the spirit world, when and if they choose to go on with it.
Innocent? It seems so on the surface. Harmless, absolutely not in the long run. If you are a police officer I am sure you have heard of the term "grooming". Grooming is when an older person takes a younger person and "grooms" them into a position where they can victumize them. It starts out innocently enough, such as a pedophile taking your son out for icecream, or on a camping trip. But they are grooming them for their own personal use LATER.
All of these things of which we are talking, be it praying to your dead loved one, praying to angels, or playing Harry Potter, are all forms of "spiritual grooming". Things that start out innocently and on the surface seem harmless, but indeed eventually lead many into the very depths of darkness.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/23/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
.
Good Morning, Spen:
What is the application of your philosophy upon youngsters
IN TODAY'S CULTURE?
I'm just thinking out loud here -- but, if your train of thought
is further expanded, are you inferring that the millions of parents worldwide (yes, this includes countless Christian families) who buy their sons & daughters Harry Potter books as Christmas gifts (and/or accompany their children to the theater to watch the latest Harry Potter movie) -- are treading on dangerous ground?
In your opinion, exactly where should the line be drawn??
Peace & blessings,
<><
Spen wrote: [quote]
A key passage is Deut 18:10
“There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."
Mayflower,
I think that reading "about" necromancy is less dangerous than experiencing the dead one's self. I am less concerned about the secular culture than about the Christian one. I agree with the theme of Dr. Boyd's messages concerning the cross and the sword. The secular culture does what it wants and, as a Christian, I attempt to value what God values. It is up to Him to enforce His laws on the secular culture. I don't have Harry Potter books and don't intend to get them.
In my opinion, the application that is more essential is the one within the church. Thus I think that Harry Potter is is less of an issue than the claims made regarding experiencing the dead on page 125 of "Seeing is Believing" which is sold in Christian bookstores. "Evil" necromancy is easier to identify and avoid than "Christian necromancy" that claims to bring freedom from pain and is "restingin Christ." (see other thread) This is the application that Christians should be more concerned about than Harry Potter. This book claims that these experiences are true and inspired and yet they include communing with the dead.
Spen Lake
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/23/2004 9:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Swan,
What did you mean by this:
You stated: He was experiencing Jesus, Mr. Jentoft, if Jesus brings rememberance of his grandmother, what's that to you?
What do you mean by Jesus "bringing a "remembrance" of his grandmother? I am unfamiliar with what you are speaking of?
To just "remember" in one's memory is one thing, but to commune with old dead granny is quite another.
I "remember" my Grandmother all the time, she was a great believer and I am probably alive because of her prayers. NOT any she might have now, since she's dead. But the one's she had for me when she was alive, back when I was without God and without hope in the world.
As for me, I do not scoff at the "beliefs" of the ancients, their "beliefs" were very "real". However just to use the word "beliefs" covers a whole LOT of area. For instance sacrificing your children to Moloch that was a very "real" belief and practice. But if the dead are not really dead, then in the end what would be the harm of such practices. If your children are going to be with the "god" wouldn't they be in a better place, right there where they could make intercession and beseech the god for you?
Generalities as such in quotes, for belief are not always the best thing to follow.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/23/2004 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
This book claims that these experiences are true and inspired and yet they include communing with the dead.
Huh; here I thought Jesus wasn't dead and that was the basis for the whole Christian faith.
Jesus is risen, He is risen indeed. When someone comes back to life bodily from the dead they are no longer dead. Lazarus was "alive" and communing with him after he was raised was not necromancy. Samuel was dead and not raised bodily. He was "experienced" spiritually. This activity is condemned. The experiences claimed int he book are communing with a dead (still bodily dead in the grave) grandmother, not Jesus.
He was experiencing Jesus, Mr. Jentoft, if Jesus brings rememberance of his grandmother, what's that to you?
Don't ever assume that Jesus is the one who sends a dead loved one to respond to a living human's communication with him/her. It's hard enough for God's holy angels to carry news back from God to believers as was the case with the angel who took weeks to carry God's message back to Daniel about his prayers. I hardly think that a deceased human could get back here at all. And notice how God was the one who took the initiative in sending an angelic messenger in that story. Daniel prayed directly to God, and God, being in charge, could send a messenger back if He so choose. Daniel knew that he himself wasn't allowed to try to talk to anyone in the spirit realm but God, unless God initially sent the messenger, who in this case was the angel. In that case, it was okay for Daniel to talk with the angel. But once the angel left, Daniel wasn't supposed to try to contact him again. He was only allowed to contact God Himself.
Paul warned the believers to test all the spirits who might come to them. He didn't even need to tell them to not try to contact them because it was common knowledge to not take the initiative in speaking to any spirits, because that's what the pagans did.
Also, Jesus' parable of the rich man and the poor man who both died proves that the dead are not ever allowed to come back to speak to the living for any reason. In that parable the rich man in hell begged God to let him or someone go back to warn his family to believe in Jesus, but God told him no. He said that they had the law and the prophets to show them the way.
I think that if you really have a desire to say something to a loved one who has gone on ahead of you, the best thing to do is pray to Jesus to relay the message to that loved one for you - if you're sure that person was saved before he or she died. Anything else smacks of idolatry and ancestor worship like many pagan cultures still do to this day.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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PhilTheThrill
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95
| Posted 6/23/2004 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
Hi Phil,
Bother I think you misunderstood what I was talking about in some respects. You said: I certainly don't think saint are demons in disguise.
I did not mean that "Saints were demons in disguise". But rather that demons "can" come disguised as saints. An alternative example would be the difference between a "Police officer disquised as a criminal", and a "Criminal disguised as a police officer."
My bad, I twisted your statement around. I would agree that demons could come in the guise of saints, yes.
I suppose I just have a narrow definition of necromancy as it relates to this topic. I dont think talking to people who have passed on qualifies as trying to commune with the dead in the sense that necromancy implies. Typically, the communion with the dead in the Biblical era was to get prophetic information or to attain some sort of power from the act. The suffix -mancy comes from a latin term meaning to prophecy. I dont think asking saints to pray for you is attempting to communicate with the dead for the purposes of prophecy or power.
Now, would I say it was wrong if someone, rather than entreating a saint to pray on their behalf, was trying to use them for some sort of power? Sure! I just dont think most Catholics are doing that. I think they are simply asking for prayer from Christians who have passed on.
SLIGHT DERAIL: Does the practice of reading Harry Potter introduce an element of risk of "grooming"? Perhaps. Having a gun in your house introduces a risk of being shot with it, but the benefits to owning guns, in my opinion, far far outweigh the small risks. And I must say that Christians of all ages stand to benefit much more from Harry Potter than they stand to lose from it. As a work of literature, it is quite excellent. As a statement on ethics, it is very very good. It simultaneously grows the mind, stimulates the soul/imagination, and imparts a very fine ethic that any parent should be happy to find in their children. Not only that, but the book is stuffed to the gills with christian imagery and christian themes. DERAIL COMPLETED. :)
Now, do I think that prayer to saints is efficacious? I dont think it is. Do I think it is based on scripture or demonstrated by it? No I dont think so. I just dont think it's necromancy either.
So I would say that really we just dont see eye to eye on what necromancy is all about. I consider it to be manipulation of the spirits for the express purpose of prophecy or gaining power. You guys seem to see it as any form of communication with the dead. I think that the Bible expressly forbids sorcery, practicing the dark arts, trying to divine the future, etc etc. I do not think the Bible has much to say on whether or not we should speak to people in Heaven in a conversational manner. But, I'll have to do some more research and see what i find. | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/24/2004 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
SLIGHT DERAIL: Does the practice of reading Harry Potter introduce an element of risk of "grooming"? Perhaps. Having a gun in your house introduces a risk of being shot with it, but the benefits to owning guns, in my opinion, far far outweigh the small risks. And I must say that Christians of all ages stand to benefit much more from Harry Potter than they stand to lose from it. As a work of literature, it is quite excellent. As a statement on ethics, it is very very good. It simultaneously grows the mind, stimulates the soul/imagination, and imparts a very fine ethic that any parent should be happy to find in their children. Not only that, but the book is stuffed to the gills with christian imagery and christian themes. DERAIL COMPLETED. :)
Phil, I don't think the "gun" analogy works for me, since guns are guns and witchcraft is witchcraft.
I have found that in the name of "literature" all kinds of abominable pratices are perpitrated by Christians, especially against the Bible. The Word of God get's treated as "just" another piece of "literature" by theologian's who have no real care as to weather or not their handling of it perverts and dishonors it. In fact I am sure that they would most assuredly never treat Harry Potter with quite the same distain, as they do the written Word.
For this reason, that our so called "leaders" don't have any real respect for the Written Word, they then DON'T TEACH IT AS THE WORD OF GOD, but as a book of "suggestion" based in "MYTHS".
See now, I did not become a Christian till I was 26. But I promised myself that if I ever did go that way I would go ALL THE WAY. To me you either ARE or you ARE NOT. None of that middle road stuff. So when I was introduced to the Word of God, that is what I took it for. So if God says witchcraft is bad, then it's bad regardless of what form it comes in. "Black Arts, White Arts it's all the same. One cleaver Devil with TWO cleaver names." And of course Harry Potter would be considdered White Arts.
Harry Potter is NOT FICTION...IN THAT it promotes the White Arts to Children in the PLAYING of casting of spells and calling upon Spirits to perform for you. Yes how sweet and innocent is that? And all accepted by so many Christian parents in the name of good reading?
Christians do not truly believe what the Bible says so why even believe in Christ, why even have a Bible, why even go to Church?
Here is something that just cracked me up when I found out about it. Originally though I said I would commit all IF I ever did give up my unbelieving life and believe in Christ, I was at first led into a ministry that deceived me in many ways as to what the scriptures teach. For instance when teaching Romans, the First Chapter was always relegated to being written concerning what had happened in the PAST to Israel.
However Christian teaching leaving MUCH to be desired, I (through the mercy of God and much READING in context) came to find that the first chapter of Romans refers to the FUTURE JUDGEMENT of the very Church of which we are a part.
NOTICE:
Roman 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Now one who reads literature, shoud know that the word "FOR" is a "conjunction" that places thoghts and ideas in "conjunction" with one another as in FOR...this reason.... And this is well to be remembered as we actually read more than one or two sentences that are connected here.
17 FOR therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. FOR the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Who is the WRATH of God to be revealed to here? To Israel of the PAST? NO! But against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who HOLD THE TRUTH in unrighteousness. The "WRATH of GOD" so to speak is something FUTURE, something yet to be revealed from heaven.
Go pick up a BIBLE. WHAT are you HOLDING? You are holding the TRUTH. Once you believe on Christ, and then open that Bible, the TRUTH is right there. So to confess him and then deny him in the next breath by refusing to beleive that it says what it means is then HOLDING THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Next to one of the live prophets standing there speaking the Word to you, what do you have? You have the WRITTEN WORD that most Christians can READ, and have READ at least to some point. YET they refuse to actually believe what it says, except in areas of what they want and choose to do. The truth is right there staring them in the face yet they refuse to believe most of it. Let me say that when God goes to all the trouble to not only place a bible in just about every hotel room, but distribute them all over the place for FREE, there will be littel EXCUSE for anyone who has not taken it to heart and believed it. LET ALONE for all those Christians out there who say they believe it and then just pick and choose and blatently ignore it's warnings.
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
They figgure since they as "corruptable men" do not see anything wrong with a little witchcraft then neither dose God. They change his attitudes towards things into their attitude. But where dose their image of him stop?
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Boy we sure see a LOT more of that going on since Child witchcraft became the acceptable practice in Christianity.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Hey why are so many Christians against homosexual marriage? I mean they allow just about everything else? And of course all Christians are not against it anyway, since they also think they should have homosexual pastors.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
What dose just the NEW Testament say about witchcraft? But what do many Christians say about witchcraft in Harry Potter form? Yet most Christians KNOW THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD concering such matters.
Christians have such attitudes and yet in the next breath quote scripture and say how SAVED they are, and have the audacity to think they are escaping judgment. Preaching that such things will NEVER happen to the "Christian".
That is also why Paul stated:
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Oh yes "WITCHCRAT" is BAD, EVIL, but a "littel" cute witchcraft in the name of good reading is OK FOR MY KID and for me.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Well YES of course they think that.
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Christians think that because the wrath of God is not coming down on their heads NOW, that they have escaped it simply because they believed in Christ. Not knowing that the only reason they are still drawing a breath is because of the FORBEARANCE of God, who hopes they will come to repentance over all their "cute" little opinions that are so contrary to what he states in black and white. That is NO FEAR of God before their eyes!
That is why when the day comes like a theif in the night, this judgment will not END but BEGIN at the HOUSE OF GOD and upon the heads of all Christians.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,
What is it to DO evil? It is to NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness. What ever the WORLD considders popular and fashionable, Christians just RUN TO IT. It's no wonder that Harry Potter is full of Christian imagry, I'm sure Rolins was raised in the Church of England or the Catholic or some Church of some kind. But Christian imagry is not the TRUTH of the Word of God.
Paul stated that when JUDGEMENT begins it will begin at the HOUSE OF GOD. But none of you really believe this, and continue on your merry way into the acceptance and practice of what is cute and fashionable among the elete of this world. Not believing that friendship with the world is enmity against God.
I found it interesting that in stating what you did concerning Harry Potter you said "SLIGHT DERAIL": . I am reminded of an old Song that goes; "Life is like a mountain railroad, with an engineer so brave, you must make the run successful from the cradel to the grave. Watch those hills those curves and tunnels, never falter never fail. Keep your hand upon the throttle and you EYE UOPN THE RAIL.
Bother I speak the words of truth to you in the love of God and with all concern for you and yours. I hope that in your research God will show you this and allow you a repentance to the acknowledment of the truth. For from this point on having these words spoken to you, you will be without excuse. May God bless you and set you on the straight track and show you that the words I speak are truth.
In the love of God,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/24/2004 3:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
SLIGHT DERAIL: Does the practice of reading Harry Potter introduce an element of risk of "grooming"? Perhaps. Having a gun in your house introduces a risk of being shot with it, but the benefits to owning guns, in my opinion, far far outweigh the small risks. And I must say that Christians of all ages stand to benefit much more from Harry Potter than they stand to lose from it. As a work of literature, it is quite excellent. As a statement on ethics, it is very very good. It simultaneously grows the mind, stimulates the soul/imagination, and imparts a very fine ethic that any parent should be happy to find in their children. Not only that, but the book is stuffed to the gills with christian imagery and christian themes. DERAIL COMPLETED. :)
Phil,
To me, the issue with Harry Potter isn't so much the fact that it contains references to witchcraft. There are fairy tales that we read that do the same. The issue is that witchcraft, and the power that it offers, is presented as a solution to problems, tangible and material problems. Witchcraft is extolled and presented as a possbile asnwer. I agree with you that there are some excellent examples of "character" and ethics. Character and ethics, however, are not Christianity. Morality is not Christianity. Believing in Christ's gospel is Christianity. Believing that we are sinners in need of savior, that God became man and died on our behalf on the cross to pay our debt and to offer us a gift of His righteousness. To believe that His words and claims are true because He proved them by being raised from the dead, bodily. To hope that as we believe we also will participate in this ressurection. This is the gospel. Those who believe and practive it will exhibit good morals and be ethical, but Christianity isn't an ethical code of conduct. It is not simply moral instruction. Harry Potter may give moral and ethical instruction but it also presents a culture/worldview in which problems are solved through gnosis and witchcraft. Teaching this to young children seems foolhardy.
Spen Lake
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