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Hello larris,
Do you have some true personal stories that you can share with us about such “lying spirits”. I respect your many years of study, but find I can relate better to someone’s true life encounters and how it has impacted them in their spiritual journey.

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Hello Keith,
You have written the equivalent of your own book right here on this board. But, one difference I find between your writings and Dr. Boyd’s is that he writes of his own personal experiences. He is honest with his readers in this respect by sharing his own personal spiritual journey. You have alluded to being involved with false teachers or cults in the past. I have asked you on other threads to share your experiences. I belief people here would rally around you in an effort to try and help heal your wounds. If you were to take this open approach, I feel you would find people here on this board to show you more compassion, understanding and respect towards your perspective.

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Originally posted by spenlake
I would rather have you engage in the discussion itself or, if you won't do that, then let the discussion go on without you.

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*SPENLAKE POSTS -- critiquing "Seeing is Believing":


• Dr. Boyd and his followers (Seeing is Believing)
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3228
• Thank you Dr Boyd (Seeing is Believing ...)
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3219
• Seeing is Believing (Book Study)
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3163
• Seeing is Believing and the BBC gospel
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3283
• Seeing Is Believing = Mormon Truth
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3231
• A thank you for my brothers in Christ
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3245
• Open letter on Mysticism and the Open View
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3141
• Ezekiel 20
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3152
• Why did God have to go and see Sodoms sins
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3170
• Anti-events are real events
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3233
• Was the spirit God sent "evil?"
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3150
• Imitating God in parenting...
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3210

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quote:

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Originally posted by Armchair Theologian

quote:

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Originally posted by spenlake
I would rather have you engage in the discussion itself or, if you won't do that, then let the discussion go on without you.

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Um, I thought that was the point of an earlier post:

quote:

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*SPENLAKE POSTS -- critiquing "Seeing is Believing":


• Dr. Boyd and his followers (Seeing is Believing)
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3228
• Thank you Dr Boyd (Seeing is Believing ...)
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3219
• Seeing is Believing (Book Study)
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3163
• Seeing is Believing and the BBC gospel
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3283
• Seeing Is Believing = Mormon Truth
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3231
• A thank you for my brothers in Christ
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3245
• Open letter on Mysticism and the Open View
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3141
• Ezekiel 20
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3152
• Why did God have to go and see Sodoms sins
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3170
• Anti-events are real events
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3233
• Was the spirit God sent "evil?"
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3150
• Imitating God in parenting...
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3210

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That it's been done to death.

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Originally posted by spenlake
If that is the standard of measure, then the opinions of those who post regarding their dislike of Calvinism, or any opposition to the OV would also have been dealt with sufficiently a long time ago.

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Originally posted by spenlake


I appreciate Laika's comments which seem to be the result of the absence of cogent arguments to contribute to our discussion concerning a legitimate topic.

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Originally posted by Tigress

I was thinking about this and then I realized that imaginative meditation is very different from necromancy because the images and experiences are all in the person's mind. Necromancers actually conjure up spirits who appear before them somehow in a vision or in real life. Whereas in imaginative meditation, the person is doing everything on the inside of his mind.

I'm not sure what the Biblical definition of a "vision" is though. If it is supposed to be something that is placed in our minds it could be argued that we're opening ourselves up for deceptive visions. But, if visions are something that's actually happening on a different plane than we are that God opens our eyes to see, then it could be argued that that is much different than forming our own thoughts in our minds.

Also, in regard to "experience," science and psychology are finding more and more that true experiences are more than just external stimuli. One actually has experiences in one's mind all the time. One could be locked inside a dark box and experience escaping it in one's mind. The evidence for that is the biological reactions the body has to the thought. Your muscles tense as you imagine pushing and cracking the box open. Your heart beats faster and your pulse rate quickens upon imagining the boards finally breaking apart and you getting free.

Also, your eyes tear up when you think of the possibility of not seeing your family again as you visualize their lovely faces. You get that sinking feeling in your stomach that your doomed as you imagine yourself rotting in that box.

Jesus said that when you lust after someone in your heart you are actually committing adultery. It is an actual experience, even though you're not acting it out physically. This is proven by the fact that your body gets sexually aroused by the thoughts alone, even if that person isn't standing there in front of you. It's an actual experience in the mind. It's like the holograms on Star Trek if you've ever seen that show. Our minds project images that affect our spirits, hearts and bodies.

God is the only One who can know our thoughts and enter into them. No other spirit can. So, when we are experiencing seeing Jesus and our loved ones inside our minds, we're essentially seeing a 2-dimensional representation of our loved ones, and the real Jesus - again because He as God is the only One who could ever come into our minds, just as He lives inside of our hearts.

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A Comparison of the Mysticism of Francis of Assisi

With That of St. Seraphim of Sarov

Originally printed in Synaxis: Orthodox Christian Theology in the 20th Century, Vol. 2, pp. 39-56.

• "During my prayer two great lights appeared before me (deux grandes lumibres m'ont ete montrees) — one in which I recognized the Creator, and another in which I recognized myself."
  — Francis' own words about his prayer



• "The truly righteous always consider themselves unworthy of God."
  — Dictum of St. Isaac the Syrian

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Originally posted by larris
I do not think that you have the right to speak for everyone on this board, since I happen to be on this board and am having no problem with showing any compassion, understanding and respect towards Kieth in general. Something I see sorely lacking in your response to him here. It is not his "personal experiences" that should move you towards showing him compassion, understanding and respect, but the very scriptures you say you believe.

As for the subject matter, since I am reletivly new I had never heard it before. Therefore your reference to it in saying "You have written the equivalent of your own book right here on this board." Makes no diffrence to me, since I had not read his previoius book, nor did I realize that Dr. Boyd had written a book on the subject, that I will now read. And I am glad to have TWO opinions and not just be subject to ONE.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

quote:

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Originally posted by spenlake


I appreciate Laika's comments which seem to be the result of the absence of cogent arguments to contribute to our discussion concerning a legitimate topic.

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Spen, I confess to having been a REALLY bad influence on Laika at one point. He "studied with the master." And for that, I apologize to you!

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Originally posted by Laika

Keith, you've been hammering on this book for months, even before it came out.

You presented your case, people have explained alternate views to it.

You hammer away. Now people think you're obsessed, not with presenting your view, which you've done repeatedly, but with just trashing the book and Boyd.

Why persist?

Soon, nearly everyone here will have you on their block list.

Then you can obsessively post away, oblivious to all those blocking you. But what's the point in that?

You made your point, why not let the obsession go?

Don't bother replying, you're on my block list.

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Originally posted by Mayflower

SEE:
KEITH'S GIANT OBSESSION:

Page 1:
Internet Infidels Discussion Forums - physical interaction with spirits - Then and Now
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=73058&page=1&pp=25

Page 2:
Internet Infidels Discussion Forums - physical interaction with spirits - Then and Now
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=73058&page=2&pp=25

.

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Originally posted by Tigress

Laika,
Wow! I've never seen you so angry. Calm down little doggie! I guess I haven't read all the posts your referring to, but I thought that Spen was making some good points for me to consider, so I've been engaging him in them. I'll continue to do so until I can see that during this discussion at least there are no more aruments that can be made.

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Originally posted by spenlake

quote:

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Originally posted by Laika

Keith, you've been hammering on this book for months, even before it came out.

You presented your case, people have explained alternate views to it.

You hammer away. Now people think you're obsessed, not with presenting your view, which you've done repeatedly, but with just trashing the book and Boyd.

Why persist?

Soon, nearly everyone here will have you on their block list.

Then you can obsessively post away, oblivious to all those blocking you. But what's the point in that?

You made your point, why not let the obsession go?

Don't bother replying, you're on my block list.

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Laika,

The issue being discussed is necromancy and claims made that the Holy Spirit inspired interaction with the dead in "Seeing is Believeing." If you wish to begin another thread on the silliness of my arguments, the lack of character and negative mean critical attitudes that I exhibit. If you wish to mock my weaknesses and shortcomings, you are welcome. I have many and my sin is as ugly as anybody else's sin. I continue to appeal regarding the topic at hand. I have appreciated Tigress and the honest attempts to resolve what I have presented as a "problem." If the fact that discussion is ocurring bothers you, put me back on block and enjoy peace.

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Originally posted by moon_river_j
I'm listening. And I'll read this thread more carefully. Thanks for your patience in this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

Notice the difference in the two quotes at the beginning of this article! :

quote:

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A Comparison of the Mysticism of Francis of Assisi

With That of St. Seraphim of Sarov

Originally printed in Synaxis: Orthodox Christian Theology in the 20th Century, Vol. 2, pp. 39-56.

• "During my prayer two great lights appeared before me (deux grandes lumibres m'ont ete montrees) Œ one in which I recognized the Creator, and another in which I recognized myself."
  ΠFrancis' own words about his prayer



• "The truly righteous always consider themselves unworthy of God."
  ΠDictum of St. Isaac the Syrian

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SEE www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/st_francis_st_seraphim.htm


"The truly righteous always consider themselves unworthy of God."

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...St. Isaac of Syria in his Directions says, "A soul which loves God, in God, and in Him alone finds peace. First release yourself from all your outward attachments, then your heart will be able to unite with God; for union with God is preceded by detachment from matter." [11] It is the plain speaking of St. Nilos of Sinai, however, that slashes through with distinct clarity to present a serious juxtaposition to the alleged Divine visitation that Francis experienced. In the Text on Prayer, he admonishes: "Never desire nor seek any face or image during prayer. Do not wish for sensory vision or angels, or powers, or Christ, lest you lose your mind by mistaking the wolf for the shepherd and worship the enemies — the demons. The beginning of the beguilement (plani) of the mind is vainglory, which moves the mind to try and represent the Deity in some form or image. [12]

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Francis' ecstatic prayer was answered, but in the light of both St. Isaac's and St. Nilos' counsels, clearly not by Christ. The chronicle says that "Francis felt himself completely transformed into Christ," transformed not only in spirit, but also in body, i.e., not only in spiritual and psychological sensations, but also in physical ones. While granting that Francis was fully convinced that he had been spiritually taken up to the Logos, the rise of special physical sensations cannot, according to St. Isaac, be ascribed to the action of a spiritually good power.

Francis' physical sensations can be explained as the work of his own mental imagination moving parallel to his spiritual ecstasy. It is hard to say, in this given instance, which was dominant in Francis' beguilement (plani): his spiritual pride, or his mentalism (mental imaging); but, in any case, the mentalism was rather strong. This is confirmed by the substantive circumstances of the unusually complex vision which was presented to Francis after he felt himself completely transformed into Jesus which is clearly a very severe state of plani, having its roots, as St. Nilos says, in vainglory.

The exaggeratedness of Francis' exaltation, which was noted in the description of his vision, is revealed very boldly when compared with the majestic vision of Christ which St. Seraphim of Sarov experienced while serving as a deacon on Great Thursday of Passion Week. [13]

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...it should be noted that the highest spiritual state, attained through the way indicated by the ascetics in the Philokalia, develops in a person's heart outside the mental and sensual spheres, and, consequently, outside the sphere of mental imagination. Abba Evagrios in his Texts on Active Life — To Anatolios, says:

The mind will not see the place of God in itself, unless it rises above all thoughts of material and created things; and it cannot rise above them unless it becomes free of the passions binding it to sensory objects and inciting thoughts about them. It will free itself of passions by means of virtues, and of simple thoughts by means of spiritual contemplation; but it will discard even this when there appears to it that light which, during prayer, marks the place of God. [16]

The experience of man's mystical union with God is, therefore, usually very difficult to convey in human terms. It happens, however, that visions are allowed people who have cultivated passionlessness in themselves, but in the majority of these cases these visions are momentary, and they strike the inner being of the person — they come as if from within. St. Isaac the Syrian elaborates: "If you are pure, then heaven is within you; and in yourself you will see angels, and with them and in them, the Lord of Angels." [17] The Fathers of the Orthodox Church teach that all these experiences are beyond any expectation of the humble man, for the ascetic in his humility does not feel himself worthy of this.

Recapitulating St. Seraphim's experience, it can be seen that it bore the following characteristics:

* Simplicity;
* Repentance;
* Humility;
* An unexpected vision beyond sensory and rational categories;
* Spiritual ecstasy or ravishment.

Emphasizing the last item, St. Isaac, quoted above, explains: "…the contemplation of a hyper-conscious vision, granted by Divine Power, is received by the soul — within itself immaterialy, suddenly and unexpectedly; it is discovered and revealed from within, because, in Christ's words, 'the kingdom of heaven is within you' — This contemplation inside the image, imprinted in the hidden mind (the higher intellect) reveals itself without any thought about it." [18]

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Originally posted by Laika

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Originally posted by moon_river_j
I'm listening. And I'll read this thread more carefully. Thanks for your patience in this.

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Seriously, he writes an "open letter" to Boyd linking his book with all sorts of things forbidden in scripture , asks him to reconsider his position (that really facilitates discussion, right?), trashs his book before it's published, calls Jonah a false prophet, can't understand that 1365 years objectively negates his "somehow" linking, grinds his ax for months, writes for DeWaay's "Critical Issues Commentary" which trashs Bruce Wilkinson, Rick Warren, Billy Graham, "seeker sensitive" churchs (you know, the churchs reaching out to bring others into the kingdom) among others, and you think he's here for "discussion"?

Get all the cards on the table before you start playing poker.

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Originally posted by Tigress

Laika,
Wow! I've never seen you so angry. Calm down little doggie! I guess I haven't read all the posts your referring to, but I thought that Spen was making some good points for me to consider, so I've been engaging him in them. I'll continue to do so until I can see that during this discussion at least there are no more aruments that can be made.

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Originally posted by spenlake

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As the memory unfolded, we got to the point where I saw Jesus instead of my grandmother, and I was grabbing onto my airplane as Jesus was hugging me. I was experiencing all the emotions that I previously experienced with this event. Then I looked up and saw my grandmother there. She looked the same as I always envisaged her in this memory, but the look on her face was no longer angry. She looked humbled and saddened. But she also possessed a tranquility about her I had never seen before. And then, in a soft and gentle voice, she spoke to me, “Greg, can you forgive me for what I did? I now see what a terrible mistake I made, and I’m sorry for the harm it caused you. I was an old, overburdened, impatient woman who was angry at the world because of my daughter’s death. It wasn’t your fault. You are a good boy. I was just too blind to see it. What I said and what I did were really wrong. Can you forgive me?”
Jesus released his hug and stood back from me. As I stood next to the paper sack that had held my toy airplane, I looked up at Jesus for a moment in silence. He was still smiling at me, but he then raised his eyebrows in a questioning manner as if to say, “Are you ready to let her go?”
He then nodded his head slightly as if to encourage me to do what I knew was the right thing. Several times I looked up at my grandmother and then back down to my red airplane I held in my hands. Finally, raising my eyes back to my grandmother, I nodded yes and said in a toddler voice, “Its OK now, Grandma. Jesus fixed the hurt.”
She slowly nodded her head and smiled as she replied, “He fixed it for me too.” I ran to her, and she picked me up and gave me a big hug – something she never did in real life. And with this Jesus came over and hugged the two of us together. We enjoyed a loving embrace for a long time.
When it seemed right, my grandmother set me down. No one said anything, but we all knew it was time to go. She and Jesus joined hands and I watched them walk off into the distance. They together looked back at me with serene smiles one last time, waived a childlike bye-bye with their fingers, and slowly vanished. The scene ended as I looked down at the shiny red airplane in my hands.

Taken from page 125 of, ”Seeing is Believing, Experiencing Jesus” by Dr. Greg Boyd.

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In this book, Dr. Boyd claims that the Jesus that he experiences is the real Jesus and that his imagined experiences with this Jesus are "Resting in Christ." He makes strong claims that these experiences contirbute to his "faith" and freedom in Christ and their contribution to a vibrant Christian life. In the above passage taken from the book, we find Dr. Boyd also experiences people who are dead in the same way he experiences "Jesus." In fact, he claims that it is the Holy Spirit that inspired these experiences with both Jesus and the dead. He has conversations with the dead. He creates new memories with the dead. His "Jesus" joins him in embracing the dead. And finally, Jesus and the dead join hands and walk off together.

If Dr. Boyd claimed that his "Jesus" was ONLY his imagination and not the true Jesus he was experiencing, then one might make the argument that this whole experience was only make-believe and if it was believed to be "true" and/or valid, the person might be simply playing psychological games with himself. What seems different and dangerous is the claim that this experienced "Jesus" is real and that this experience is connected to "faith" and hence the name "Seeing is Believing." If seeing and experiencing this spiritual "Jesus" is claimed to be real and helpful to "faith," then the claim to experience the dead in the same way and the same context must be considered to be more than simple "mind games." The claim is that the spiritual experience is real, linked with faith, and inspired. Therefore, the contact with the dead that is claimed to be experienced must be judged by the same criteria in the same context.

In light of these claims and considerations I believe that Dr. Boyd has stepped over a line that is drawn in Deut 18 prohibiting contact with the dead. The Holy Spirit would never transgress this prohibition and "inspire" forbidden contact and thus the inspiration that is claimed for the spiritual "Jesus" should also be reconsidered.

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