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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 6/24/2004 6:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Frankly it seems to me that Spen's mind is made up and dialoging with him only adds fuel to the fire. I would suggest ignoring him in hopes he would spend his time on other things, considering the amount of time he has spent reguritating the same "arguments." I second: not again. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 6/24/2004 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | | I would simply add that my point is not that Spen doesn't have the right to say what he does: he certainly does. I just do not think he really has anything new to add and it seems to me that that it is beginning to look as if he is losing objectively and it is something personal now. I would hope not. However, I believe we all know how Spen feels on the subject and going on seems to be so much hot air. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/25/2004 4:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
But I just want to thank those like moon river j, Laika, feelinghole and others who sympathetically read and understood the intent and nature of allowing the Holy Spirit to make Jesus experientially real to us via the imagination. Thank you all.
Greg
ps. I am beginning to get responses from people whose life has been deeply affected by Seeing Is Believing. The FRUIT tells the story. It makes it all worth it!
Hey! What about me? Sniff sniff.  (see below)
I was thinking about this and then I realized that imaginative meditation is very different from necromancy because the images and experiences are all in the person's mind. Necromancers actually conjure up spirits who appear before them somehow in a vision or in real life. Whereas in imaginative meditation, the person is doing everything on the inside of his mind.
I'm not sure what the Biblical definition of a "vision" is though. If it is supposed to be something that is placed in our minds it could be argued that we're opening ourselves up for deceptive visions. But, if visions are something that's actually happening on a different plane than we are that God opens our eyes to see, then it could be argued that that is much different than forming our own thoughts in our minds.
Also, in regard to "experience," science and psychology are finding more and more that true experiences are more than just external stimuli. One actually has experiences in one's mind all the time. One could be locked inside a dark box and experience escaping it in one's mind. The evidence for that is the biological reactions the body has to the thought. Your muscles tense as you imagine pushing and cracking the box open. Your heart beats faster and your pulse rate quickens upon imagining the boards finally breaking apart and you getting free.
Also, your eyes tear up when you think of the possibility of not seeing your family again as you visualize their lovely faces. You get that sinking feeling in your stomach that your doomed as you imagine yourself rotting in that box.
Jesus said that when you lust after someone in your heart you are actually committing adultery. It is an actual experience, even though you're not acting it out physically. This is proven by the fact that your body gets sexually aroused by the thoughts alone, even if that person isn't standing there in front of you. It's an actual experience in the mind. It's like the holograms on Star Trek if you've ever seen that show. Our minds project images that affect our spirits, hearts and bodies.
God is the only One who can know our thoughts and enter into them. No other spirit can. So, when we are experiencing seeing Jesus and our loved ones inside our minds, we're essentially seeing only a 2-dimensional representation of our loved ones - not their actual disembodied spirits - and the real Jesus - again because He as God is the only One who could ever come into our minds, just as He lives inside of our hearts.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/25/2004 6:46 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 6/25/2004 7:02 AM (GMT -6) | | .
AMEN!
<><
Greg Boyd wrote:
quote:
And Tigress is right on about the nature of thought.
It all involves image-ination. We think by replicating reality
"on the inside" -- not with conceptual information. Cataphatic prayer is simply a way of praying in line with how the brain actually works. That one of the reasons why cataphatic prayer is powerful.
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larris
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/25/2004 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress you stated: I was thinking about this and then I realized that imaginative meditation is very different from necromancy because the images and experiences are all in the person's mind. Necromancers actually conjure up spirits who appear before them somehow in a vision or in real life. Whereas in imaginative meditation, the person is doing everything on the inside of his mind.
Yes as I see here you are simple speaking about using your imagination and picturing things in your mind. Nothing wrong with that.
But if it wasn't just YOU picturing it in YOUR mind, but something else giving you the picture, in 20th Century Fox all out MOVIE waking DREAM type styly. Then we have something completely different going on.
Then a "SPRIIT" of some kind is involved in the manipulation of your brain and body. Then the question becomes is it the true God, the true Jesus or the true holy spirit doing such. OR is it ANOTHER SPIRIT of a different sort?
Just because it FEELS good and even seemed to settle some issues you've had, is it truly the Lord, or some other spirit. This is where what is called "DISCERNING OF SPIRITS" comes in. The question would be HOW do you discern weather or not it's a holy spirit or an unholy spirit doing the work on you or someone else.
That men of God will have dreams, visions and revelations is beyond question, it's all over the scriptures. But that men also have the same via another type of spirit for the purpose of deception is also in the Scriptures.
Ultimatly I think as to each persons determination of what kind of spirit gave the dream, vision or revelation would depend upon the ultimate beliefs that one held according to the Word of God.
For the Word of God is the true "discerner" of the thoughts and intents of every heart, even the hearts of those spirits that give dreams, visions, and revelations. Are you firstly knowing and obeying the Word of God? Because many shall do just the opposite and call it faith.
Jer. 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
Since Christ is the LIGHT, and Satan comes as an angel of LIGHT.
Since Christ's minister's are the minister's of rightousness,
And Satan's minister's are also transformed into the minister's of righteousness,
THEN HOW DO YOU TELL TRUTH FROM ERROR, GOOD FROM EVIL?
Just because you had an EXPERIENCE that FELT GOOD, filled you all full of light and hope there is nothing to say that it was necessarily the TRUE LIGHT, or that you were given the TRUE HOPE.
My favorite saying is "EXPERIENCE IS NO GUARENTEE OF TRUTH".
Everything, every experience ESPECIALLY every "spiritual" experience must be dealt with in an unemotionally detatched manner, and with an accurate knowledge of the Written Word of God, that is the ONLY standard rule of faith and practice.
However there again, your knowledge of that written word, what you believe it to say, would also influence your determination of your experience. One person who believed differently about what they think true and correct teaching from the Scriptures is, could look at your experience and determin that it was not from a holy spirit, the true God or the true Jesus. While another with a different interpretation of the scripture, could look at that same experience and believe that it was from a truthful holy source.
Now my personal belief having experienced some of these "experiences" is that you better beware of anything that plays overly much on your "emotions". Because if you are looking for a feel good faith to make you think you have faith, there is a spirit out there that will oblidge you. Unfortunately then every time you don't "FEEL" your faith, you will think you've lost your "faith".
Hence you will have to get another FIX from the spirit by way of another "experience" to get you going again. Make you feel UP and full of faith and light. Spiritual experiences can be much the same a drugs, hence why they are sometimes referred to as "pharmakia" from where we get our word "pharmacy", and which is translated "sorcery" in the New Testament. That is why you have to be careful about the experiences you have and those you are seeking.
But AGAIN, that the word says that such have taken place, and that they will take place is evident to us. So there is like this balance between discerning what it right and wrong, truth and error, and not totally cutting yourself off from any experience whatsoever. But these experiences should NEVER take the place of the written word, and must be discerned in light of the whole council of that word.
I personally believe that for the most part, God lives on a very unemotional plain. That faith is simply based on reading the written word, coming to understand it and then simple unemotional saying of I believe that. We don't get all up and emotional over our name. We don't have to have an "experience" to know that our name is such and such. We just believe it because it's true. True faith is not based on FEELINGS, and when I finally got to the point that I quit relying on my FEELINGS as to how much faith I happened to have at any one given moment, it was a GREAT FREEDOM.
That's not to say that emotions don't play a part in spirituality, they do and can. But we do not base weather or not we have faith on them, and we do not base as to weather or not our prayers have been heard on those emotions. We also do not base how much our prayers are heard on how we FEEL when we pray, or the words we are able to work our selves up into praying. We just TALK to GOD, and he hears the shortest most unflowery unemotional sentence.
When you talk to a good friend, you don't have to get all worked up and emotional to know that your friend is hearing you and concerned about you, or wants to help you. Not to say that in a friendship there aren't those times when you've got some real heavy duty emotions to share. But if it was like that ALL THE TIME, it would really ware both of you out.
Some people think that they need to live on this high spiritual plain all the time, where they keep needing an emotional experiencial spiritual fix to think they have faith. THese emotional fixes can in fact turn into communing with a spirit that can esily give you these emotional seemingly faith filled highs. This is called "MYSTICISM", and the mystics come from all different religious backgrounds. Pot on Wheel posted here a whole bunch of stuff on that a few posts back.
I personally do not like mysticism, because I don't want any spirit, ANY SPIRIT playing my emotions and physical sinsations like a fiddle. I have never liked people doing that to me, and I do not want any spirit doing that to me. I personally do not think that God dose this, and if you do get a vision or a revelation it will have to agree with right doctrine, which again would be reletive to the person, and what he believes to the taught in the word of God.
Ultimatly Jesus will sort this whole mess out someday and each one of us will find out if what we believed was true. But also if you are truly seeking the truth, eventually you yourself will determin where each individual experience you may have or others may tell you of come from, weather it be the true God or some other spirit. BUT your determination will only be as good as how much of the written word of God you truly know accurately and believe.
Again, nothing wrong with using the imagination if it lines up with what Christ taught. But then you need to be fully understanding what Christ taught before you could be safe to make that judgment. BUT a spiritual "EXPERIENCE" via a real dream, vision or revelation is much different from just using your imagination to picture something.
1 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Jer. 11:8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do: but they did them not.
You must learn the word of Christ and then determine how to use your imagination. Imagination is a God given aspect of our makeup, to be creative is good if it's godly creativity and true to right doctrine. When the Word speaks of "meditation" it's speaking of "meditating" on the Word the WORDS of God.
In the love of Christ,
larris
Oooo I just thought of something, that also might play a part here and one might tend to be careful about what they imagine.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
How about John Lennon's "IMAGINE"
Imagine there's no heaven (NO THANKYOU)
It's easy if you try. (NO THANKYOU)
No hell below us (NO THANKYOU)
Above us only sky. (NO THANKS)
You may say ay ay ay...I'm a Dreamer
But I'm NOT THE ONLY ONE (Scarry thought.)
I hope some Day ay ay ay
You'll join me. (Gota go...)
And the Wor or or or ALD will live as ONE. (I'm OUTA HERE.)
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/25/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by larris
Some people think that they need to live on this high spiritual plain all the time, where they keep needing an emotional experiencial spiritual fix to think they have faith. THese emotional fixes can in fact turn into communing with a spirit that can esily give you these emotional seemingly faith filled highs. This is called "MYSTICISM", and the mystics come from all different religious backgrounds. Pot on Wheel posted here a whole bunch of stuff on that a few posts back.
I personally do not like mysticism, because I don't want any spirit, ANY SPIRIT playing my emotions and physical sinsations like a fiddle. I have never liked people doing that to me, and I do not want any spirit doing that to me. I personally do not think that God dose this, and if you do get a vision or a revelation it will have to agree with right doctrine, which again would be reletive to the person, and what he believes to the taught in the word of God.[quote]
GOOD POINT, LARRIS!
Notice that the list that the Orthodox monks would put together would just include:
- Simplicity
- Repentance
- Humility
- NOT expect(ing) visions beyond sensory and rational categories
- "Spiritual" ecstasy -- that is "immaterialy" and not physically, emotionally -- defined as realization that discovered and revealed from within that 'the kingdom of heaven is within you.' THIS is not a permanent high, but, perhaps, seeing clearly when the veils of earlthy care are at their "thinnest" (to use C.S.Lewis' word).
.
Billy Graham's list would include two things: Scripture reading daily (he's never missed a day), and constant prayer (he does not stop!) To that the monks would add "ascesis"/discipleship -- which Mr. Graham does anyways!!!
.
[quote]Originally posted by larris
Again, nothing wrong with using the imagination if it lines up with what Christ taught. But then you need to be fully understanding what Christ taught before you could be safe to make that judgment. BUT a spiritual "EXPERIENCE" via a real dream, vision or revelation is much different from just using your imagination to picture something.[quote]
I like your scropture selection, larris!
1 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Jer. 11:8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do: but they did them not.
Godd advice: "You must learn the word of Christ and then determine how to use your imagination."
Church services (liturgy) are a "school" for this. As is, as you said, reading scripture!!!! | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/25/2004 8:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigressquote:
I was thinking about this and then I realized that imaginative meditation is very different from necromancy because the images and experiences are all in the person's mind. Necromancers actually conjure up spirits who appear before them somehow in a vision or in real life. Whereas in imaginative meditation, the person is doing everything on the inside of his mind.
AMEN! There is a HUGE difference.
moon_river_jquote:
Most believers do not like praying. It is something that is very difficult for them. This book lights a fire under the believers prayer life. It is inspiring. And, Dr Boyd was vulnerable enough to share his own experience of transformation of a wounding memory in his life.
I agree that this book has enhanced my prayer time experience. It IS inspiring. I appreciate Dr. Boyd's willingness to be vulnerable in order to encourage others.
moon_river_jquote:
Who says Christians don't shoot their wounded. That is what this appears to be to me. Instead of rejoicing, we tear something (that was intended to encourage believers and glorify God) apart limb from limb.
That is why I started the thread on "Can Christians Disagree Without Wounds Resulting".
spenlakequote:
In any case, the Jesus and the dead grandmother that you experience are ontologically the same. They interact and walk off together hand in hand. If the Jesus you experience is not just the creation of your mind, then the dead that you experience there must be more than just the creation of your mind as well. If the dead are only the creation of your mind and imagination, then the Jesus must be only the product of your imagination as well and not inspired or real any more than your imaginations of the dead are real.
This sounds like the thing that needs to be addressed. This may be the key area you are struggling with in the book. I think this is a fair and legitimate question to ask.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/25/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
just want to thank those like moon river j, Laika, feelinghole Trigress  and others who sympathetically read and understood the intent and nature of allowing the Holy Spirit to make Jesus experientially real to us via the imagination. Thank you all.
But I DID say "and others..." 
And Trigress is right on about the nature of thought. It all involves image-ination. We think by replicating reality "on the inside" -- not with conceptual information. Cataphatic prayer is simply a way of praying in line with how the brain actually works. That one of the reasons why cataphatic prayer is powerful.
Greg
Dr. Boyd,
You state, "We think by replicating reality "on the inside" -- not with conceptual information." Does this mean that the Jesus that you imagine "on the inside" is really on a Jesus that you have created and replicated? I understand by your book that you believed that this Jesus you experienced "on the inside" was inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus not exclusively the result of your mind and your replication? It seems that your explanation must be one or the other, your experienced Jesus is either real or simply a product of your imagination - not some "hopping back and forth from one to the other" as you see fit.
In any case, the Jesus and the dead grandmother that you experience are ontologically the same. They interact and walk off together hand in hand. If the Jesus you experience is not just the creation of your mind, then the dead that you experience there must be more than just the creation of your mind as well. If the dead are only the creation of your mind and imagination, then the Jesus must be only the product of your imagination as well and not inspired or real any more than your imaginations of the dead are real.
It is an honest observation/question. However sympathetic one may be with a person or a book, an honest question may still be responded to.
The vision that I experienced in cataphatic prayer transformed my life, and here I am today, talking to you about it. In my vision (which took place during a three hour prayer session, Jesus was real as I experienced him. He was not present physically, but He didn't have to be. He told us himself that it was to our advantage that he go and send us His comforter. He was there with me. The rest of the vision, was inspired by the Holy Spirit, through my imagination. My imagination can be inspired by Him, just as my intellectual thought processes can be. His Spirit indwells us. We are inseparable. I'm missing your point.
I can't remember where I read this quote, but I loved it, and it rings true. He speaks to us in more ways than we dare imagine.
(Ephesians 3:20)
This is a circular conversation. It reminds me of that little ditty, "This is the song that never ends...It just goes on and on my friend..."
Please think about that.
Jo-Anne (and by the way, I really do think you sincerely believe this, but I believe you are sincerely "barking up the wrong tree."
 )
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/25/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
In my vision (which took place during a three hour prayer session, Jesus was real as I experienced him. He was not present physically, but He didn't have to be. He told us himself that it was to our advantage that he go and send us His comforter. He was there with me. The rest of the vision, was inspired by the Holy Spirit, through my imagination. My imagination can be inspired by Him, just as my intellectual thought processes can be. His Spirit indwells us. We are inseparable. I'm missing your point.
Jo-Anne, I am wondering if SpenLake cannot separate the two. What I hear the issue being is that if Dr. Boyd claims the experience of Jesus and his healing was real than how can he separate that "real" Jesus from the grandma being just as real. I believe SpenLake feels that we are making up stories about Jesus that didn't really happen hence we cannot label this a "true" experience of Jesus. I "think" this is where SpenLake is stuck.
Am I correct, SpenLake? | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/25/2004 8:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
just want to thank those like moon river j, Laika, feelinghole Trigress and others who sympathetically read and understood the intent and nature of allowing the Holy Spirit to make Jesus experientially real to us via the imagination. Thank you all.
But I DID say "and others..."
And Trigress is right on about the nature of thought. It all involves image-ination. We think by replicating reality "on the inside" -- not with conceptual information. Cataphatic prayer is simply a way of praying in line with how the brain actually works. That one of the reasons why cataphatic prayer is powerful.
Greg
Dr. Boyd,
You state, "We think by replicating reality "on the inside" -- not with conceptual information." Does this mean that the Jesus that you imagine "on the inside" is really on a Jesus that you have created and replicated? I understand by your book that you believed that this Jesus you experienced "on the inside" was inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus not exclusively the result of your mind and your replication? It seems that your explanation must be one or the other, your experienced Jesus is either real or simply a product of your imagination - not some "hopping back and forth from one to the other" as you see fit.
In any case, the Jesus and the dead grandmother that you experience are ontologically the same. They interact and walk off together hand in hand. If the Jesus you experience is not just the creation of your mind, then the dead that you experience there must be more than just the creation of your mind as well. If the dead are only the creation of your mind and imagination, then the Jesus must be only the product of your imagination as well and not inspired or real any more than your imaginations of the dead are real.
It is an honest observation/question. However sympathetic one may be with a person or a book, an honest question may still be responded to.
Spenlake,
I already addressed this in my post that Dr. Boyd was responding to here. No other spirit can enter your mind but God, so Jesus can be right there with you while you're both examining your thoughts and memories, manipulating them into the truth of God's perspective when it happened.
Larris,
Of course we must know the Word well in order to engage in imaginative prayer. No one's denying that. If ever a thought comes into our head that contradicts Scripture, our knowledge of Scripture will help us to see that and not believe in it. How we handle imaginative prayer is no different than any other thing we handle in life - we test it against God's Word to see if it's the truth or a lie. If I was imagining say...the time that I was being picked on by an older girl at school and I imagined myself suddenly getting the "strength and self-confidence" to punch her in the nose, that obviously wouldn't be a thought that The Holy Spirit was leading me to imagine. But, the Holy Spirit would lead me to imagine instead the kind of pain that she must have been experiencing in her own life to make her think that she'd feel better by hurting me. Then, the Holy Spirit would lead me in forgiving her for doing that to me. This in no way is me actually speaking with her - in fact I doubt if she has even died yet. This is simply a way for me to deal with my pain and anger and unforgiveness towards her for hurting me so that I can be healed and move forward with a clean slate, finally free of the bondage of bitterness and unforgiveness.
The purpose of these exercises is not so much to discover some kind of hidden truth like non-Christians usually try to seek during meditative states which more often than not opens them up to demonic lies, but instead we use imaginative prayer by using the truth of the Word to help us see the bad things from our past in a proper perspective (God's) and even in a positive light - and to be healed from the pain and paralysis that that pain caused. We use first the Bible to know and understand the truth, and then we apply that truth to our thoughts and emotions in order to align them with that truth. That way our whole being is walking in true unhindered, glorious and harmonious fellowship with Jesus! And we're unhindered by the pain from our pasts so we can move forward serving God and humanity in faith, doing what God created us to do.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/25/2004 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Quest and Jo-Anne,
As per quest's post, it is equally possible that spen's post is meant as a tool, and not the application of a tool. Larris' post was a too. Then WE can take that tool and apply it.
spen's post dealt with a text. In that part it was "applied."
But resist the impulse to think that just because spen says something "might" or "can" be done wrong automatically means that spen thinks that "you" are wrong.
We all get emotional, and with emotion comes the tendency of this happening. (NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE!) | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 6/25/2004 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, Spen:
May I ask why you persist on this topic? Is it because you have an axe to grind?
**Are you actually here because you and/or those you are
associated with are in disagreement with the Dr. Boyd's writings on the Open View?
<><
.
Spen wrote: quote:
It is an honest observation/question. However sympathetic one may be with a person or a book, an honest question may still be responded to.
.
----------
**SEE: CRITICAL ISSUES COMMENTARY: May/June 2000,
ISSUE 58 - "The Foreknowledge of God"
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/articles/issue58.htm
By Bob DeWaay
Excerpt:
In this article I shall respond to a recent challenge issued in the book
"God of the Possible," by Gregory A. Boyd. ....
Conclusion:
.....I do not think Dr. Boyd has given us sufficient Biblical evidence to warrant changing our whole view of God's foreknowledge.
The passages cited are incidental to the issue at hand.
What I mean by this is that they are not specifically addressing God's relationship to time and whether or not God's knowledge is unchanging. There is no clear passage of Scripture that says God does not foreknow, while many state that He does. The passages we have examined, taken in their context, are easily understood without importing the notion of a God who lacks exhaustive foreknowledge. In several instances the Bible predicts what was going to happen in these very examples, showing that God did have foreknowledge. Therefore the "open" view of God should be rejected on purely Biblical grounds.
-------------
SOURCE:
Twin City Fellowship website
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/main.htm
Critical Issues Commentary -- back issues
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/index.htm
ALSO SEE:
• Critical Issues Commentary: Downloads
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/downloads.php
• Critical Issues Commentary
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/
.
.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/25/2004 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
.
Greetings, Spen:
May I ask why you persist on this topic? Is it because you have an axe to grind?
Are you actually here because you and/or those you are
associated with are in disagreement with the Dr. Boyd's writings on the Open View?
<><
Spen wrote: quote:
It is an honest observation/question. However sympathetic one may be with a person or a book, an honest question may still be responded to.
.
Mayflower,
This seems like a fair thing to ask, IF it is in interest of continuing conversation and better connunication.
Feelinhole and I are examples of those who have disagreements with certain views (and not others) -- yet we are welcomed here, and contribute, and participate.
You ask a question that is good for you to find out. I hope he answers.
But welcome him, all the same, whatever his answer!!!
Thsnks,
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/25/2004 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
You tell me, "I already addressed this in my post that Dr. Boyd was responding to here. No other spirit can enter your mind but God, so Jesus can be right there with you while you're both examining your thoughts and memories, manipulating them into the truth of God's perspective when it happened."
Does this mean that you don't think that evil spirits can enter you mind and influence you? I am sure that you must believe that more than one kind of spirit attempts to influence you. In this regard I do believe that we are in a war and that the devil and his evil spirits do attempt to influence us. Scripture gives us an example with Judas in Luke 22:3, "And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them."
Perhaps I am putting words in your mouth or ideas in your statements that aren't there. If I am wrong and you will take the time, explain it to me so that I "get" it.
I see that the ontological essence of the Jesus and the dead grandmother in the narrative as identical. If this experienced "Jesus" is more than just the product of Dr. Boyd's imagination, then the experience with the dead is also not something that Dr. Boyd only created himself. There is a spiritual (or at least outside force) that has contributed both to the Jesus and to the dead. As I understand Deut 18, the Holy Spirit wouldn't inspire experiencing the dead. If the outside force isn't the Holy Spirit, what spirit would it be?
To me it is an exercise in logic and the plain understanding of what is being claimed by this book. I have been accused of not being "sympathetic" to the book, and I confess that this is true. To claim or somehow imply that because I am not sympathetic my questions are invalid or of no merit seems going too far. I am not trying to inflict hurt on anybody, just find an answer. If the issue I am raising is valid, do people and teachers retract bad teaching, repent and say that they are sorry?
I may from time to time have silly ideas. Thankfully, when they are aired, the weaknesses in the ideas is made clear to me by many of God's helpers. It has been my experience that when I suggest an idea and am met wirh mocking and personal attacks instead of responses, the idea that I have floated has some merit and strength to it. If it was only silly, there are many, especially on this site, that would like to help me to see the error in my reasoning. As this thread has grown, so has my conviction that this issue of necromancy is an important weakness in this book and not easily defendable.
Thank you for your attempts at an honest response. If I don't understand your explanation I will try hard on the 2nd pass.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/25/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigressquote:
examining your thoughts and memories, manipulating them into the truth of God's perspective when it happened.... Of course we must know the Word well in order to engage in imaginative prayer. No one's denying that. If ever a thought comes into our head that contradicts Scripture, our knowledge of Scripture will help us to see that and not believe in it. How we handle imaginative prayer is no different than any other thing we handle in life - we test it against God's Word to see if it's the truth or a lie.
Amen again, Tigress. I think this might be helpful information for SpenLake too.
I am wondering if Spen, you would agree with using EXAMINE WITH JESUS through the working of the Holy Spirit in order to bring a truthful perspective into the past memory. If you agree with this then you and Dr. Boyd I think are on the same page but perhaps saying it a bit differently.
Potonwheelquote:
But resist the impulse to think that just because spen says something "might" or "can" be done wrong automatically means that spen thinks that "you" are wrong.
I do NOT think Spen is personally thinks "I" am wrong. I think he/she is sincerely expressing his/her concern and I believe for him/her it is a burdensome concern. The bigger issue, however, is that I believe we as Christians must at times agree to disagree. Perhaps Spen must accept that Dr. Boyd is sincerely following the Holy Spirit especially since Greg has expressed how he has many testimonies that state this book has brought them closer to Jesus Christ hence the fruit is evident. Perhaps we must sometimes agree that we may or may not be right hence not try to shove our beliefs on another believer. God judges the heart of each person. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/25/2004 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
As I understand Deut 18, the Holy Spirit wouldn't inspire experiencing the dead. If the outside force isn't the Holy Spirit, what spirit would it be?
Spen Lake, I think you may want to at least consider the idea that Jesus works WITH us, through the Holy Spirit that reigns within us, and is able to work WITH US to bring closure to pain filled memories. Jesus can help us reconstruct a painful memory in such a way that our brains will be able to let go of the trauma. The scenario that Greg created in his mind was NOT real and Greg realizes that he was not able to travel back in time to redue the memory in reality. However, Satan can plant seeds of lies into our brains during the trauma and in this way our memories can destroy us throughout our lives. We need to bring closure and apply God's truth where the lies are installed. Dr. Boyd's book is one such method of doing this.
quote:
It has been my experience that when I suggest an idea and am met wirh mocking and personal attacks instead of responses
This is the sad truth. I think we need to be REPSECTFUL to those who do not agree with our beliefs. I think that IF Dr. Boyd is offended by what Spen Lake is posting then it is for HIM to ask Spen to please stop but even so then I believe this should be done respectfully. I am very pleased to see Dr. Boyd has not asked Spen to stop. I believe we all are in process of sorting through our convictions.
Greg Boyd, I appreciate that quality about you so much. You allow others the right to voice their differences. I wish for the sake of all that we would remember the people who post and read here are people. RESPECT is key in effective communication.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 6/25/2004 10:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Greetings, Brother:
PoW wrote: quote:
This seems like a fair thing to ask, IF it is in interest of continuing conversation and better communication.
It is in the interest of "honest" communication -- and,
Spen's agenda in all this.
Peace & blessings,
<><
.
====================================================
====================================================
Mayflower wrote:
quote:
Greetings, Spen:
May I ask why you persist on this topic? Is it because you have an axe to grind?
* *.Are you actually here because you and/or those you are
associated with are in disagreement with the Dr. Boyd's writings
on the Open View?
<><
.
----------
* *SEE: CRITICAL ISSUES COMMENTARY: May/June 2000,
ISSUE 58 - "The Foreknowledge of God"
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/articles/issue58.htm
By Bob DeWaay
Excerpt:
In this article I shall respond to a recent challenge issued in the book
"God of the Possible," by Gregory A. Boyd. ....
Conclusion:
.....I do not think Dr. Boyd has given us sufficient Biblical evidence to warrant changing our whole view of God's foreknowledge.
The passages cited are incidental to the issue at hand.
What I mean by this is that they are not specifically addressing God's relationship to time and whether or not God's knowledge is unchanging. There is no clear passage of Scripture that says God does not foreknow, while many state that He does. The passages we have examined, taken in their context, are easily understood without importing the notion of a God who lacks exhaustive foreknowledge. In several instances the Bible predicts what was going to happen in these very examples, showing that God did have foreknowledge. Therefore the "open" view of God should be rejected on purely Biblical grounds.
-------------
SOURCE:
Twin City Fellowship website
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/main.htm
Critical Issues Commentary -- back issues
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/index.htm
ALSO SEE:
• Critical Issues Commentary: Downloads
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/downloads.php
• Critical Issues Commentary
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/
.
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/25/2004 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Tigress,
You tell me, "I already addressed this in my post that Dr. Boyd was responding to here. No other spirit can enter your mind but God, so Jesus can be right there with you while you're both examining your thoughts and memories, manipulating them into the truth of God's perspective when it happened."
Does this mean that you don't think that evil spirits can enter you mind and influence you? I am sure that you must believe that more than one kind of spirit attempts to influence you. In this regard I do believe that we are in a war and that the devil and his evil spirits do attempt to influence us. Scripture gives us an example with Judas in Luke 22:3, "And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them."
Perhaps I am putting words in your mouth or ideas in your statements that aren't there. If I am wrong and you will take the time, explain it to me so that I "get" it.
I see that the ontological essence of the Jesus and the dead grandmother in the narrative as identical. If this experienced "Jesus" is more than just the product of Dr. Boyd's imagination, then the experience with the dead is also not something that Dr. Boyd only created himself. There is a spiritual (or at least outside force) that has contributed both to the Jesus and to the dead. As I understand Deut 18, the Holy Spirit wouldn't inspire experiencing the dead. If the outside force isn't the Holy Spirit, what spirit would it be?
To me it is an exercise in logic and the plain understanding of what is being claimed by this book. I have been accused of not being "sympathetic" to the book, and I confess that this is true. To claim or somehow imply that because I am not sympathetic my questions are invalid or of no merit seems going too far. I am not trying to inflict hurt on anybody, just find an answer. If the issue I am raising is valid, do people and teachers retract bad teaching, repent and say that they are sorry?
I may from time to time have silly ideas. Thankfully, when they are aired, the weaknesses in the ideas is made clear to me by many of God's helpers. It has been my experience that when I suggest an idea and am met wirh mocking and personal attacks instead of responses, the idea that I have floated has some merit and strength to it. If it was only silly, there are many, especially on this site, that would like to help me to see the error in my reasoning. As this thread has grown, so has my conviction that this issue of necromancy is an important weakness in this book and not easily defendable.
Thank you for your attempts at an honest response. If I don't understand your explanation I will try hard on the 2nd pass.
Spenlake,
Do you believe that when you're praying silently to God, that other spirits can hear or read your thoughts? If so, I think you have a case. But, if not, imaginative meditation is no different. Yes, Satan shoots arrows of lies, accusations and doubt at us, but that's why we use the Bible to rebuke them. So, if a thought or image that is contrary to what the Bible says comes into our minds as we're practicing imaginative meditation we rebuke it with the Word, like we would if we thought of a phrase that's a lie from Satan. See what I mean?
And in that post that I wrote to Larris above, I mentioned that I imagined myself in the situation with the girl who picked on me when we were kids. I have no idea if she has died or not. I often have imagined about past situations with my parents and my brother who are all still alive. Therefore, no necromancy is going on while doing this. It's all simply replaying my memories and scraping out the junk that Satan threw in there (lies, accusations, doubts, etc.) with the Holy Spirit's help and of course the groundwork of the Word.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 6/25/2004 5:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SpenLake
quote:
I see that the ontological essence of the Jesus and the dead grandmother in the narrative as identical. If this experienced "Jesus" is more than just the product of Dr. Boyd's imagination, then the experience with the dead is also not something that Dr. Boyd only created himself. There is a spiritual (or at least outside force) that has contributed both to the Jesus and to the dead. As I understand Deut 18, the Holy Spirit wouldn't inspire experiencing the dead. If the outside force isn't the Holy Spirit, what spirit would it be?
Ron
Would you label the following accounts from Scripture Necromancy?
If not, isn't it communication with someone who has died? My bold.
quote:
1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1 Samuel 28:14 And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.
1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
1 Samuel 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
quote:
Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Granted the next one is of a different category but its evidence of manifold workings of God.
quote:
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.
Now this appearance in Revelations of a fellowservant being used of God to help communicate a vision is puzzling. Had the man already slipped out of his earthly body and in service of the Lord from heaven? Or was this something we have to relegate to mystery?
quote:
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Imagination specifically mentioned in the Bible. I wanted to bring it out because of the use of imagination in your posts. Some of these have a negative context and some positive, in the sight of God, but all evidence its use. My bold of the word which is in the Hebrew yetser - imagination.
quote:
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1 Chronicles 29:18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:
Psalm 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we [are] dust.
Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.
Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
The word imagination in the KJV of Jeremiah is sheriruth – stubborness and is widely misinterpreted . I think you have affirmed imagination is a faculty of man given by the Creator. But I didn't know if you have looked at the specific mention of it in the sight of God.
Now for the use of the imagination in life, specifically in the body of Christ and in service of the Lord, have you considered what allegory is?
Allegory
quote:
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
What are we going to do about this allegorical interpretation recorded in Scripture? Paul, knows perfectly well that his allegorical interpretation is not identical with the literal sense of the text. Nonetheless, his interpretation is done through the lens of the gospel story with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Paul "hears" the text of Gen 21: 1 0 speaking directly to the churches of Galatia, and his figurative reading helps them to hear the word also.
Much of Christian preaching is allegorical, in the Pauline sense. Preachers make metaphors, linking the text with the present life of the congregation in imaginative ways so that the text reshapes the listener’s vision of its life before God.
Paul's method of discerning parallels between the biblical narrative and the crisis facing his readers is employed when preachers see the circumstances of their own day illumined by the stories of Scripture.
The key question for us as Christians is whether the allegory is governed by the story of Jesus.
Peace
Ron
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