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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 6/26/2004 2:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Ron,
I realize that you were talking to Spen, but I would care to give my opinion on the questions.
You asked: Would you label the following accounts from Scripture Necromancy? If not, isn't it communication with someone who has died?
Regarding 1 Samuel and King Saul, yes that was ABSOLUTLY necromancy.
1 Chron 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Well I worked all night and have a hard time hitting the keys on the key board, so that's all for now.
God bless,
In the love of Christ
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/26/2004 2:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress writes:
Spenlake,
Do you believe that when you're praying silently to God, that other spirits can hear or read your thoughts? If so, I think you have a case. But, if not, imaginative meditation is no different. Yes, Satan shoots arrows of lies, accusations and doubt at us, but that's why we use the Bible to rebuke them. So, if a thought or image that is contrary to what the Bible says comes into our minds as we're practicing imaginative meditation we rebuke it with the Word, like we would if we thought of a phrase that's a lie from Satan. See what I mean?
And in that post that I wrote to Larris above, I mentioned that I imagined myself in the situation with the girl who picked on me when we were kids. I have no idea if she has died or not. I often have imagined about past situations with my parents and my brother who are all still alive. Therefore, no necromancy is going on while doing this. It's all simply replaying my memories and scraping out the junk that Satan threw in there (lies, accusations, doubts, etc.) with the Holy Spirit's help and of course the groundwork of the Word.
Tigress,
When you say, "I often have imagined about past situations with my parents and my brother who are all still alive. Therefore, no necromancy is going on while doing this," I would agree with you. You are imagining things and they are not real. You are creating images with your mind that you made up and examining them. This book is claiming that the spiritual experiences that are occurring in the imagination are “inspired” and that the Jesus experienced there is the real Jesus. This book claims that this real spiritual Jesus then “leads” Dr. Boyd into spiritual experiences and participates in them alongside of Dr. Boyd. This spiritual Jesus interacts with both Dr. Boyd and the dead. He hugs them, speaks to them, and finally, walks off hand in hand with the dead.
If you were to say, “My gosh, this Jesus is leading me into interaction with the dead. This isn’t biblical and so this must be a lie of Satan, an arrow that Satan is attempting to implant in my thoughts. I must refuse lies of Satan that masquerade as ‘inspired imaginations.”” If you were to consider the experience this way, there may be some substance to your claim. This approach would place scripture as the standard of discernment. Instead it appears that experience, even imaginary spiritual experiences, take priority. I think that this is dangerous. Attempting to imagine Jesus or even my dead grandmother is not a sin. Attempting to teach/learn a technique that provides me with “spirit inspired” imaginations that are created by a force outside of myself and that bring me experiences with the dead alongside of Jesus, this seems to be in conflict with Deut 18. Dr. Boyd is not claiming that he is imagining Jesus. He is claiming that through his imagination that is being inspired and helped by the various techniques he lists in the book, he is experiencing the real Jesus spiritually. He claims that he is experiencing Jesus with his five spiritual senses and this would extend to his experiences with the dead. He believes that it is more than just his imagination.
This same “real” spiritual experience that is behind the title, “Seeing is Believing – Experiencing Jesus” is identical to his spiritual experiences with the dead. Through these experiences with the dead he claims to find healing and the power to forgive. Doesn’t that strike you as a bit odd in light of scripture?
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/26/2004 3:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
As I understand Deut 18, the Holy Spirit wouldn't inspire experiencing the dead. If the outside force isn't the Holy Spirit, what spirit would it be?
Spen Lake, I think you may want to at least consider the idea that Jesus works WITH us, through the Holy Spirit that reigns within us, and is able to work WITH US to bring closure to pain filled memories. Jesus can help us reconstruct a painful memory in such a way that our brains will be able to let go of the trauma. The scenario that Greg created in his mind was NOT real and Greg realizes that he was not able to travel back in time to redue the memory in reality. However, Satan can plant seeds of lies into our brains during the trauma and in this way our memories can destroy us throughout our lives. We need to bring closure and apply God's truth where the lies are installed. Dr. Boyd's book is one such method of doing this.
quote:
It has been my experience that when I suggest an idea and am met with mocking and personal attacks instead of responses
This is the sad truth. I think we need to be REPSECTFUL to those who do not agree with our beliefs. I think that IF Dr. Boyd is offended by what Spen Lake is posting then it is for HIM to ask Spen to please stop but even so then I believe this should be done respectfully. I am very pleased to see Dr. Boyd has not asked Spen to stop. I believe we all are in process of sorting through our convictions.
Greg Boyd, I appreciate that quality about you so much. You allow others the right to voice their differences. I wish for the sake of all that we would remember the people who post and read here are people. RESPECT is key in effective communication.
Quest,
Thank you for your post in tone and content. When you say, "Jesus can help us reconstruct a painful memory in such a way that our brains will be able to let go of the trauma." I agree that Jesus can do whatever He wishes but He won't do something that is contrary to what He has written. Will Jesus break the commands that were given in Deut 18? It is my opinion that He will not and that this is exactly what is happening in this narrative.
You say, "The scenario that Greg created in his mind was NOT real and Greg realizes that he was not able to travel back in time to redue the memory in reality." I agree that the scenario was not real, but imagined. However, Dr. Boyd claims that this "scenario" was a "real spiritual experience" that was inspiried by God. If your analysis were correct and it was only Greg that created it in his mind this scenario would be innocuous and harmless. If Dr. Boyd finds freedom and healing in his own imagination and his own thoughts that he creates for himself, fine. I am happy that he feels better. To call the creations of my mind and my own imaginations, "Resting in Christ" then would be silly and a vast overstatement.
Dr. Boyd is clear in his book that he believes that the imagined events in this scenario are "real" spiritual experiences - these are inspired by the Holy Spirit and are more than just his imagination and ideas. This is why he finds comfort in them, because he feels that they are the product of an outside benevolent force, the Holy Spirit. He really believes and teaches that this scenario is the creation of the Holy Spirit through which he can find and experience spiritual comfort and the power to forgive. The issue I am raising is that the Holy Spirit cannot inspire real spiritual experiences with the dead and be consistent with Deut 18.
Thus, these "real spiritual experiences" are on of two things:
1. ONLY the product of his own imagination.
2. Inpired by an outside force that is not the Holy Spirit.
Dr. Boyd believes in other spiritual forces and has written about them in "God at War." Is it possible that the forces that he has written about deceive and come as angels of light and "healing" in their efforts to deceive? Dr. Boyd attributes much power and resources to these hostile forces, why would something like this be so hard to imagine if we were to imagine?
Finally, I am not raising this issue to inflict hurt and pain on Dr. Boyd. I am raising it in the hope that, if it is true, then he will re-correct his course and re-align his teaching to the truth. While I may have disagreements over OV, this to me seems minor compared to the issue of this book. I see this book as a much greater disagreement between us than any of his OV teachings because "freedom" is found either in my own imaginations or from a non-holy outside source. I agree with you, Quest, this is his site and I am his guest. I have appreciated his hospitality and if he desires me to leave, I will respect his ownership and authority over this site and leave peacefully.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 6/26/2004 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rsirkel
Hi SpenLake
quote:
I see that the ontological essence of the Jesus and the dead grandmother in the narrative as identical. If this experienced "Jesus" is more than just the product of Dr. Boyd's imagination, then the experience with the dead is also not something that Dr. Boyd only created himself. There is a spiritual (or at least outside force) that has contributed both to the Jesus and to the dead. As I understand Deut 18, the Holy Spirit wouldn't inspire experiencing the dead. If the outside force isn't the Holy Spirit, what spirit would it be?
Ron
Would you label the following accounts from Scripture Necromancy?
If not, isn't it communication with someone who has died? My bold.
quote:
1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1 Samuel 28:14 And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.
1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
1 Samuel 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
Spen replies:
NECROMANCY - Mentioned in conjunction with Saul's death.
quote:
Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Granted the next one is of a different category but its evidence of manifold workings of God.
Spen replies:
Not NECROMANCY: Covered in "Necormancy" thread. The disciples had no interaction with the dead Moses (Elijah never died). (Perhaps Moses was already resurrected because of the reference to his body in Jude, but this is speculation) The disciples were in fact overcome by sleep. Jesus was not a normal man as He discussed the coming event with these two men. It is the one time where He was in His glorified body. Somehow, I think that this changes things. If someone can converse with the dead in a glorified body as Jesus did, then we may have to consider it an excedption. What is most interesting is that in all the accounts of this event God speaks from heaven and commands the disciples to listen to Jesus.
quote:
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.
Spen replies:
Not Necromancy. These were not spirits or "spiritual experiences" but physical people. Thus, interaction with Lazarus was not necormancy anymore than interaction with Jesus is necromancy. These were "resurrected" dead and therefore "alive." Perhaps one could make that argument for Moses on the mount of transfiguration because we have the passage in Jude that states that Michael wrestled with Satan for the body of Moses.
Now this appearance in Revelations of a fellowservant being used of God to help communicate a vision is puzzling. Had the man already slipped out of his earthly body and in service of the Lord from heaven? Or was this something we have to relegate to mystery?
quote:
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Spen replies:
I consider these NOT NECROMANCY in that they are not specific "dead" and could be of those who were bodily raised after Jesus came to life as mentioned above. We are not told too much nor given names. I could be content with "mystery" and that the source, John the apostle, was someone that would be more trustworthy than you or I. He had seen, known, and witnessed Jesus bodily on the earth. He had also witnessed Jesus glorified on the mount. He knew what the real Jeus looked like in his earthly and glorified body."
Imagination specifically mentioned in the Bible. I wanted to bring it out because of the use of imagination in your posts. Some of these have a negative context and some positive, in the sight of God, but all evidence its use. My bold of the word which is in the Hebrew yetser - imagination.
quote:
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Deuteronomy 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1 Chronicles 29:18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:
Psalm 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we [are] dust.
Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.
Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
The word imagination in the KJV of Jeremiah is sheriruth – stubborness and is widely misinterpreted . I think you have affirmed imagination is a faculty of man given by the Creator. But I didn't know if you have looked at the specific mention of it in the sight of God.
Now for the use of the imagination in life, specifically in the body of Christ and in service of the Lord, have you considered what allegory is?
Allegory
quote:
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
What are we going to do about this allegorical interpretation recorded in Scripture? Paul, knows perfectly well that his allegorical interpretation is not identical with the literal sense of the text. Nonetheless, his interpretation is done through the lens of the gospel story with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Paul "hears" the text of Gen 21: 1 0 speaking directly to the churches of Galatia, and his figurative reading helps them to hear the word also.
Much of Christian preaching is allegorical, in the Pauline sense. Preachers make metaphors, linking the text with the present life of the congregation in imaginative ways so that the text reshapes the listener’s vision of its life before God.
Paul's method of discerning parallels between the biblical narrative and the crisis facing his readers is employed when preachers see the circumstances of their own day illumined by the stories of Scripture.
The key question for us as Christians is whether the allegory is governed by the story of Jesus.
Spen:
The issue of allegory and literal is not always clear, however, there are places where the differences are extremely clear. The death and resurrection was literal. In John 1 and 1 John 1, the apostle goes far out of his way to establish "literal." I believe that if Dr. Boyd wants to write, "listen to the allegory that I just imagined," this would be far different than to claim to experience the real Jesus spiritually in the ways that he has claimed. If he wants to clarify and state that his book is an allegory and not literal, we can wait for that to happen and re-evaluate it then in light of the claims that he makes.
Peace
Ron
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/26/2004 8:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lake quote:
However, Dr. Boyd claims that this "scenario" was a "real spiritual experience" that was inspiried by God. If your analysis were correct and it was only Greg that created it in his mind this scenario would be innocuous and harmless. If Dr. Boyd finds freedom and healing in his own imagination and his own thoughts that he creates for himself, fine. I am happy that he feels better. To call the creations of my mind and my own imaginations, "Resting in Christ" then would be silly and a vast overstatement.
I hope that what Dr. Boyd posted on a thread he started about imaginative prayer might answer or address some of your skepticism and doubt.
I believe Greg experienced Jesus and through this experience found a way to rest his weary memory and find restoration and life. "Come to me all you who labor and are heavy burdened and I will give you rest." Greg rested in Christ through allowing the truth to sink in on a memory that was taking life from him. The Holy Spirit does work through our imaginations which is seen throughout the bible.
I look forward to your response to Dr. Boyd on the other thread.
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rsirkel
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 6/26/2004 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey larris
quote:
Regarding 1 Samuel and King Saul, yes that was ABSOLUTLY necromancy.
1 Chron 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Ron
Granted, Saul used illegal methods, but the very fact that Samuel manifested and spoke, do you think God had anything to do with Samuel's appearance?
Hi Spen
From your post to Quest for Truth
quote:
The issue I am raising is that the Holy Spirit cannot inspire real spiritual experiences with the dead and be consistent with Deut 18.
Ron
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Matthew 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spen replies:
Not NECROMANCY: Covered in "Necormancy" thread. The disciples had no interaction with the dead Moses (Elijah never died). (Perhaps Moses was already resurrected because of the reference to his body in Jude, but this is speculation) The disciples were in fact overcome by sleep. Jesus was not a normal man as He discussed the coming event with these two men. It is the one time where He was in His glorified body. Somehow, I think that this changes things. If someone can converse with the dead in a glorified body as Jesus did, then we may have to consider it an excedption. What is most interesting is that in all the accounts of this event God speaks from heaven and commands the disciples to listen to Jesus.
Ron
Moses died (fact) Jesus was a man (fact)Jesus talked with Moses after Moses had died and before Jesus died and was resurrected. The Holy Spirit inspired the scriptural record of this account and God is the author of the actual. So what about your stand the Holy Spirit cannot inspire real spiritual experiences with the dead? If there are exceptions then your definition of Deu.18 is lacking boundaries and your knowledge lacks relativity to the manifold and diverse operations of God.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spen replies:
I consider these NOT NECROMANCY in that they are not specific "dead" and could be of those who were bodily raised after Jesus came to life as mentioned above. We are not told too much nor given names. I could be content with "mystery" and that the source, John the apostle, was someone that would be more trustworthy than you or I. He had seen, known, and witnessed Jesus bodily on the earth. He had also witnessed Jesus glorified on the mount. He knew what the real Jeus looked like in his earthly and glorified body."
Ron
What is a not specific "dead"? This account in Revelations again should make you cautious in an all inclusive application of Deu. 18. Again, it lacks relativity to the manifold operations of God. Even the ones recorded in Scripture. 
Spen, another quote from the Quest reply.
quote:
You say, "The scenario that Greg created in his mind was NOT real and Greg realizes that he was not able to travel back in time to redue the memory in reality." I agree that the scenario was not real, but imagined. However, Dr. Boyd claims that this "scenario" was a "real spiritual experience" that was inspiried by God. If your analysis were correct and it was only Greg that created it in his mind this scenario would be innocuous and harmless. If Dr. Boyd finds freedom and healing in his own imagination and his own thoughts that he creates for himself, fine. I am happy that he feels better. To call the creations of my mind and my own imaginations, "Resting in Christ" then would be silly and a vast overstatement.
Ron
I don't think you took the time to consider the scriptures mentioning the imagination. You discount the spiritual experience of Dr. Boyd that his were God inspired but the following are specific to God's relation to imagination.
quote:
1 Chronicles 29:18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:
Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind (imagination) [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.
Wouldn't Dr. Boyd be in obedience with Scripture in his account of inner healing in view of this exhortation from the Apostle Paul?
quote:
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
My statements to you about allegory too were dismissed in a "Simon Says" reply to Boyd's not using the word allegory in his account of healing.
quote:
What are we going to do about this allegorical interpretation recorded in Scripture? Paul, knows perfectly well that his allegorical interpretation is not identical with the literal sense of the text. Nonetheless, his interpretation is done through the lens of the gospel story with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Paul "hears" the text of Gen 21: 1 0 speaking directly to the churches of Galatia, and his figurative reading helps them to hear the word also.
Much of Christian preaching is allegorical, in the Pauline sense. Preachers make metaphors, linking the text with the present life of the congregation in imaginative ways so that the text reshapes the listener’s vision of its life before God.
Paul's method of discerning parallels between the biblical narrative and the crisis facing his readers is employed when preachers see the circumstances of their own day illumined by the stories of Scripture.
The key question for us as Christians is whether the allegory is governed by the story of Jesus.
Spen:
The issue of allegory and literal is not always clear, however, there are places where the differences are extremely clear. The death and resurrection was literal. In John 1 and 1 John 1, the apostle goes far out of his way to establish "literal." I believe that if Dr. Boyd wants to write, "listen to the allegory that I just imagined," this would be far different than to claim to experience the real Jesus spiritually in the ways that he has claimed. If he wants to clarify and state that his book is an allegory and not literal, we can wait for that to happen and re-evaluate it then in light of the claims that he makes.
Spen, I think Paul's perspective should be adopted among Christians.
quote:
Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
Philippians 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
Philippians 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Peace
Ron
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 6/26/2004 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Mmm....I find the subjects on this web site quite interesting. Ive have listened to some of Mr Greg Boyds sermons on his web site and while maybe not agreeing with him 100 % on every detail he brings forth I do consider him to be a precious brother in the Lord. The charge towards him of talking to the dead, by use of the imagination and calling what he did something like an occult practice, well I would say such a claim can be safely dismissed. I think what he was really doing was imagining if the grandmother could actually talk to him now, what would she say? Well she undoubtedly would have said the things he envisioned.
You know many years ago I watched a television program from Little House In The Prairie. While merely fiction I feel the writers brought something forth which could really help comfort those in grief of a loved one who died. The story line went thus. John Gravey, Charles Ingels friend, had his wife die in a house fire. He was bitter for many many weeks and the sorrow was going to destroy him. Well, Charles Ingels went to see him and said the following, "Well if your wife could appear before you now, what is the thing you think she would say? Would she tell you its alright to carry on acting like a nut, hurting other people around you? Would she want you [if she could appear and talk to you now] would she want you wallowing around in this horrible self pity? What exactly do you think she would say to you?" Well John Garvey's eyes lit up and he stated, "No she wouldn't want me acting like I am. She would say this to me and she would say that to me! She would say things like, John what do you think you're doing man! Get up out of that house and get on with your life!Put a smile on your face and carry on and look for the good things of life and be positive!" Well just that question, what would your love one say right now and they appeared before you and talked broke the mindset of his sorrow and grief.
It seems to me that's what Greg Boyd is really saying. The things he imagined his grandmother saying lets face it folks, would perhaps be indeed the things she would have said. There's nothing wrong with arming yourself with a perspective of something which didn't really occur but you know that's what would occur. That doesn't mean you're contacting the dead, it merely means your acknowledging what the more real truth or higher truth of a situation might be. One owes it to themselves to understand that is probably the thing they would now say. So in other words Grey Boyd is embracing what is truly the more real truth of the matter and he’s seeing things from a more right way with the added facts that he knows his grandmother now would have. 
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