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Originally posted by SwanLake

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Originally posted by spenlake
Spen replies: Spiritual experiences in our imagination are no different for Christians than for non-Christians or spiritists.

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Christians have scripture and the Holy Spirit. Thus, spiritual experiences are different.

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Spen replies: This is sooo different. Far from being something "forbidden," we know that "speaking in tongues" is something that God has actually promised to us. He has told us in scriptures that this can happen among believers.

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A promise?

Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions."

John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

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Originally posted by quest for truth

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Spenlake: "That good experience could have been provided by evil spirits in order to delude you into thinking this technique is a legitimate means of grace and to write a book to lead others into it."


That comment ranks at an all-time high on the Unintentional Comedy Scale.

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BJS, sorry but this comment was NOT necessary since I don't think Spen Lake meant it as a joke.

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Originally posted by spenlake
I believe that the passage you quoted is true and is for today. It does not imply, however, that visions of the dead or experiences with them are in any way allowed in that promise. I am not contesting that the Holy Spirit CAN inspire our imagination and give us visions. I am stating that the Holy Spirit doesn't inspire visions that bring us Jesus and the dead giving us messages.

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Originally posted by SwanLake

See spenlake, it says "test the spirits" not "avoid the spirits".

If an encounter with Jesus reaffirms scripture, that passes the test.

If a spirit says, "give that lady carrying groceries, up the hill, in the rain, at night, a lift", that passes the test.

If a spirit says, "'Man Of War', in the fifth", that fails the test. But here's $5 just in case.

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Originally posted by spenlake
An encounter with Jesus AND the dead in which they interact and give you messages does not affirm scriptures. Spirits that inspire experiences in your imagination with the dead oppose the ordinance of Deut 18. The message communicated is immaterial. A false prophet/spirit may say something that is factual or even true and still be "false" because the methods used are forbidden.

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Originally posted by SwanLake

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Originally posted by spenlake
An encounter with Jesus AND the dead in which they interact and give you messages does not affirm scriptures. Spirits that inspire experiences in your imagination with the dead oppose the ordinance of Deut 18. The message communicated is immaterial. A false prophet/spirit may say something that is factual or even true and still be "false" because the methods used are forbidden.

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Jesus told his disciples to leave others alone because "he who is not against us, is for us" and "a house divided against itself cannot stand". So:

1. Jesus is not dead (I hope you affirm this)
2. Jesus and granny spout scriptural truths about love and forgiveness
3. These scriptural truths are not against scripture (a tautology)
4. A house divided against itself can't stand, he who is not against us, is for us, Matthew 12:25, Mark 9, Luke 9
5. There's nobody in the middle, no priest, no channeler, no medium
6. The past is being re-evaluated, the future is not being requested

Personally, there's other methods I don't like that others use, but who am I to say God isn't calling someone to use methods not to my liking?

Like the Jonah indictment and the Nephilim quackery, you hang an awful lot on.... not much of anything.

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Originally posted by spenlake
Practicing necromancy doesn't need someone in the middle, just the person that has spiritual experiences with the dead.

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Necromancy

Necromancy is the act of conjuring the dead for divination. It dates back to Persia, Greece and Rome, and in the Middle Ages was widely practiced by magicians, sorcerers, and witches. It was condemned by the Catholic Church as "the agency of evil spirits," and in Elizabethan England was outlawed by the Witchcraft Act of 1604.

Necromancy is not to be confused with conjuring devils or demons for help. Necromancy is the seeking of the spirits of the dead. The spirits are sought because they, being without physical bodies, are no longer limited by the earthly plane. Therefore, it is thought these spirits have access to information of the past and future which is not available to the living. It has been used to help find sunken or buried treasure, and whether or not a person was murdered or died from other causes.

The practice of necromancy has been compared by some to modern mediumistic or practiced spiritualism. Many consider it a dangerous and repugnant practice. Dangerous because it is alleged that when some spirits take control of the medium they are reluctant to release their control for some time.

Necromancy is not practiced in Neo-pagan Witchcraft, but it is practiced in Voodoo.

There are two noted kinds of necromancy: the raising of the corpse itself, and the most common kind, the conjuring or summoning of the spirit of the corpse. A.G.H.

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As any kind of sorcerer, necromancers many times have invented their own rituals. The most common objects (but not always essentials) used in these rituals were bones, hair and other parts of animals or even humans.

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Swan says: The origins of the word "necromancy" itself comes from the Greek and Roman world where necromancy was practiced as the name might suggest: divination out of corpses.

corpse?

Was there a corpse involved?

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

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Originally posted by SwanLake

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Originally posted by spenlake
Spen replies: Spiritual experiences in our imagination are no different for Christians than for non-Christians or spiritists.

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Christians have scripture and the Holy Spirit. Thus, spiritual experiences are different.

"Ezekial saw the wheel, way up in the middle of the air...."

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WHAT DOES "SPIRITUAL" MEAN? Biblically, it means "according to the Spirit" -- Holiness.

So, a "spiritual experience" is a REAL event where we are not controled by the passions of the flesh, but instead humbly embrace God's perspective on life.

A "spiritual experience" is an ordinary but greatly humbling event. Like seeing someone like a small autistic child in need, and being humbled at being able to do such a small part in helping him. . .even while being humbled more by his own courage, love, and resiliance under pressure.

Upheld by grace, received as God's creation, supported as His New Creation in Christ. . . given a task and a calling. . . walking by faith. . .


"Spiritual experience" is not "mystical!"

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Originally posted by spenlake

Swan,

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Swan says: The origins of the word "necromancy" itself comes from the Greek and Roman world where necromancy was practiced as the name might suggest: divination out of corpses.

corpse?

Was there a corpse involved?

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If the word "necromancy" offends you, just let it be and deal with the concept behind it. The word "necromancy" doesn't exist in the Hebrew. Deut. 18:10 is the passage and it simply says that to "call up the dead" is detestable to the Lord. What does this passage refer to? What do the Hebrew scholars think that it means? This passage means something and that something is forbidden and detestable to the Lord. Saul was involved with something as well and it didn't involve a corpse.

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Originally posted by moon_river_j

Thank you POW, for the beautiful description of what being spiritual means.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

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Originally posted by moon_river_j

Thank you POW, for the beautiful description of what being spiritual means.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne

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You can tell John Earp. He needs to hear something nice about me.

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The first approach holds that the Church exists wherever the essentials of the apostolic tradition can be found in matters of doctrine, sacraments and ministry. . . For irenic purposes, this approach also holds that, although the Church of Christ exists fully or perfectly in one communion alone, it may be found imperfectly or by participation in others #8209; inasmuch as they, too, possess certain gifts or endowments that belong by right to the one true Church.

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Originally posted by spenlake

Swan,

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Swan says: The origins of the word "necromancy" itself comes from the Greek and Roman world where necromancy was practiced as the name might suggest: divination out of corpses.

corpse?

Was there a corpse involved?

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If the word "necromancy" offends you

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Saul was involved with something as well and it didn't involve a corpse.

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Notice the difference in the two quotes at the beginning of this article! :



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A Comparison of the Mysticism of Francis of Assisi

With That of St. Seraphim of Sarov

Originally printed in Synaxis: Orthodox Christian Theology in the 20th Century, Vol. 2, pp. 39-56.



• "During my prayer two great lights appeared before me (deux grandes lumibres m'ont ete montrees) Œ one in which I recognized the Creator, and another in which I recognized myself."
  ΠFrancis' own words about his prayer



• "The truly righteous always consider themselves unworthy of God."
  ΠDictum of St. Isaac the Syrian

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SEE www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/st_francis_st_seraphim.htm


"The truly righteous always consider themselves unworthy of God."


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...St. Isaac of Syria in his Directions says, "A soul which loves God, in God, and in Him alone finds peace. First release yourself from all your outward attachments, then your heart will be able to unite with God; for union with God is preceded by detachment from matter." [11] It is the plain speaking of St. Nilos of Sinai, however, that slashes through with distinct clarity to present a serious juxtaposition to the alleged Divine visitation that Francis experienced. In the Text on Prayer, he admonishes: "Never desire nor seek any face or image during prayer. Do not wish for sensory vision or angels, or powers, or Christ, lest you lose your mind by mistaking the wolf for the shepherd and worship the enemies — the demons. The beginning of the beguilement (plani) of the mind is vainglory, which moves the mind to try and represent the Deity in some form or image. [12]

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and then...



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Francis' ecstatic prayer was answered, but in the light of both St. Isaac's and St. Nilos' counsels, clearly not by Christ. The chronicle says that "Francis felt himself completely transformed into Christ," transformed not only in spirit, but also in body, i.e., not only in spiritual and psychological sensations, but also in physical ones. While granting that Francis was fully convinced that he had been spiritually taken up to the Logos, the rise of special physical sensations cannot, according to St. Isaac, be ascribed to the action of a spiritually good power.

Francis' physical sensations can be explained as the work of his own mental imagination moving parallel to his spiritual ecstasy. It is hard to say, in this given instance, which was dominant in Francis' beguilement (plani): his spiritual pride, or his mentalism (mental imaging); but, in any case, the mentalism was rather strong. This is confirmed by the substantive circumstances of the unusually complex vision which was presented to Francis after he felt himself completely transformed into Jesus which is clearly a very severe state of plani, having its roots, as St. Nilos says, in vainglory.

The exaggeratedness of Francis' exaltation, which was noted in the description of his vision, is revealed very boldly when compared with the majestic vision of Christ which St. Seraphim of Sarov experienced while serving as a deacon on Great Thursday of Passion Week. [13]

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...it should be noted that the highest spiritual state, attained through the way indicated by the ascetics in the Philokalia, develops in a person's heart outside the mental and sensual spheres, and, consequently, outside the sphere of mental imagination. Abba Evagrios in his Texts on Active Life — To Anatolios, says:

The mind will not see the place of God in itself, unless it rises above all thoughts of material and created things; and it cannot rise above them unless it becomes free of the passions binding it to sensory objects and inciting thoughts about them. It will free itself of passions by means of virtues, and of simple thoughts by means of spiritual contemplation; but it will discard even this when there appears to it that light which, during prayer, marks the place of God. [16]

The experience of man's mystical union with God is, therefore, usually very difficult to convey in human terms. It happens, however, that visions are allowed people who have cultivated passionlessness in themselves, but in the majority of these cases these visions are momentary, and they strike the inner being of the person — they come as if from within. St. Isaac the Syrian elaborates: "If you are pure, then heaven is within you; and in yourself you will see angels, and with them and in them, the Lord of Angels." [17] The Fathers of the Orthodox Church teach that all these experiences are beyond any expectation of the humble man, for the ascetic in his humility does not feel himself worthy of this.

Recapitulating St. Seraphim's experience, it can be seen that it bore the following characteristics:

* Simplicity;
* Repentance;
* Humility;
* An unexpected vision beyond sensory and rational categories;
* Spiritual ecstasy or ravishment.

Emphasizing the last item, St. Isaac, quoted above, explains: "…the contemplation of a hyper-conscious vision, granted by Divine Power, is received by the soul — within itself immaterialy, suddenly and unexpectedly; it is discovered and revealed from within, because, in Christ's words, 'the kingdom of heaven is within you' — This contemplation inside the image, imprinted in the hidden mind (the higher intellect) reveals itself without any thought about it." [18]

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Notice that the list that the Orthodox monks would put together would just include:

Simplicity

Repentance

Humility

NOT expect(ing) visions beyond sensory and rational categories

"Spiritual" ecstasy -- that is "immaterialy" and not physically, emotionally -- defined as realization that discovered and revealed from within that 'the kingdom of heaven is within you.' THIS is not a permanent high, but, perhaps, seeing clearly when the veils of earlthy care are at their "thinnest" (to use C.S.Lewis' word).

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Billy Graham's list would include two things: Scripture reading daily (he's never missed a day), and constant prayer (he does not stop!) To that the monks would add "ascesis"/discipleship -- which Mr. Graham does anyways!!!

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There is a particular passage that was shocking in which the apostle Paul tells Rick Joyner that his writings should not be considered foundational. This spiritual Paul tells Rick that only Jesus' words in the gospels are foundational. This is in direct contradiction to what we find in scriptures in which Peter calls Pauls writings scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. In 1 Cor 14:38 Paul states that that his writings are authoritative and that if there are those that don't recognize this, then he commands us not to recognize this person.

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