Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > A Response on Imaginative Prayer

Forum Quick Jump

64 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 7/2/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6)

Our daughter loves the worship times at Morningstar Ministries.

Big Smile

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 7/2/2004 7:57 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by John Earp

Hi Timlings,

A "tongue-talker" is one of the names we Pentecostals go by.

As to Joyner's stuff, I find that it is at best fanciful and at worst plainly unscriptural, if it is judged by the standard of the Bible.

I'm not really interested in digging out his books right now, but if you would like to post a short excerpt of his that is representative of his work, I would be more than happy to point out what I see as wrong with his approach. Primarily, the main thing that concerns me about Joyner is that with him virtually everything is an allegory, and virtually every event has a "prophetic" meaning.

...and a demon lurking behind every bush?

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 7/3/2004 5:23 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by timlings

John Earp

I probably shouldn't be replying to your post...but hey.

I have personally found the writings of Rick Joyner and Morning Star Ministries incredibly helpful and powerful. I know that no one's got it all right and some people have got it downright wrong. However, I wouldn't call him a false prophet. What are the biblical standards for using that label? I know that he's a bit on the "far out" side of Christianity. But prophets often are. Where the Holy Spirit moves brings controversy, and has done throughout history.

"An Ark? Noah, are you mad?"
"Leave Ur? Abraham, are you mad?"
"Lead the Israelites? Moses, are you mad?"

I would be challenged rather than call someone a false prophet. From Joyner's writings, he's got an awesome love of scripture. A word from God is more precious than all the treasures in the world! However, he says that he loves Truth, not just a particular truth.

Can we have a bit of dialogue on what Joyner was talking about re: Paul's writings? He wasn't saying the epistles aren't scripture. I think he challenging our order of importance of scripture hermeneutically. Surely we put what Jesus teaches above, say, what Leviticus teaches? We don't ignore the Levitical laws, but interpret them in the light of Jesus. The same is with Paul's writing. We interpret what he's written in the light of Jesus and his teachings.

Is that making any sense?

love

Timlings

ps. If this is getting off topic, I could start another thread??
pps. what's a 'tongue-talker'?

John and Timlins,

When Rick Joyner speaks to the dead in his visions and relates to us their messages, would you consider this necromancy? Why?

Spen Lake

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 7/3/2004 5:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John and Timlins,

When Rick Joyner speaks to the dead in his visions and relates to us their messages, would you consider this necromancy? Why?

No corpse? No medium? It's not necromancy.

quote:

Necromancy's etymology comes from two Greek words. "Nekros" which means "corpse" and "manteia" which means "prophesy".

The origins of the word "necromancy" itself comes from the Greek and Roman world where necromancy was practiced as the name might suggest: divination out of corpses.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

Mayflower
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445

Posted 7/3/2004 6:41 AM (GMT -6)

.

Careful, John.
I think that wily ol' Spin is again trying to set a trap!
Shock

.

.
Spenlake wrote:

quote:
John and Timlins,

When Rick Joyner speaks to the dead in his visions and relates to us their messages, would you consider this necromancy? Why?

Mayflower
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445

Posted 7/3/2004 7:10 AM (GMT -6)

.
Ah, ha!
Since a corpse doesn't exist in "Seeing is Believing," maybe entrapment will provide one??
Big Smile

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 7/3/2004 5:11 PM (GMT -6)

David killed one of the Anakim 1365 years after the flood, you know. Big Smile

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 7/3/2004 5:49 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

John and Timlins,

When Rick Joyner speaks to the dead in his visions and relates to us their messages, would you consider this necromancy? Why?

The following definition from dictionary.com says:

1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.

I am very uncomfortable with how Joyner relates his "visions" in his books. He doesn't even hint that these things were imaginative. Whether Joyner intended to talk to the dead or not is another question, as scripturally speaking, intention defines the morality or immorality of an action. Perhaps I'm being too generous, but based on his writings, in my opinion Joyner is just a self-important fiction writer who says his stuff is based on actual experiences he has had.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 7/3/2004 10:06 PM (GMT -6)

Mayflower, YOU CRACK ME UP Big Smile

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 7/4/2004 6:47 AM (GMT -6)

John,

Perhaps a better word to describe Joyner would be "spiritist." The word for spiritist is yiddeoni and occurs 11 times in the Old Testamnent. It is part of the list in Deut 18. The root of the word is yada, meaning "to know" and the word literally means "knowing one." It isn't exclusively used in conjuntion with the dead but with contact with the spiritual world outside of the ways explicitly ordained and commanded by God. The word is used in conjunction with consulting the dead in Isaiah 8:19 and the "ghosts of the dead" in Isaiah 19:3.

In 10 of the 11 uses (the exception is when it is used in conjunction with the Egyptians) there is a contrast made between the "spiritist" and the word of God and His commands. God had defined specifically how (the proper means) He was to be worshipped and what methods were acceptable to seek Him. The methods and means were far from neutral - they were paramount and God made examples of those who flaunted this by killing men. Intention and motive was not enough to compensate for skirting the "means." There are several examples that make this clear. There is the "strange fire" offered by Aaron's sons that resulted in their deaths. Probably the best example of intent not justifying the means is the account of David bringing the Ark to Jerusalem. He was sincere, the lawfully anointed King chosen by God. He loved God and his motives to bring the Ark to Jerusalem were noble and worthy. He had all Israel there to witness this event and celebrate God. He had the priests there.

In spite of all David's sincere good intentions, God's anger broke out and killed one of David's men (and he was only trying to "help protect" God's Ark so it wouldn't fall off the cart). God demanded that His means be respected and killed men to underscore the point. When I consider Joyner I think of Isaiah 8:19 which mentions the following in the context of spiritists:"should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word it is because they have no dawn."

Regardless of whatever else one may think, in his book Rick Joyner is claiming to consult the dead on behalf of the living in his books. As necromancer isn't even a scriptural term, spiritist would probably be more accurate.

Spen Lake

timlings
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130

Posted 7/5/2004 9:37 AM (GMT -6)

Seriously, stop!

This is just name calling.

In scripture, we are told that "young men will see visions and old men will have dreams" (Acts and Joel). Those sorts of manifestations came when the Spirit was poured out on pentecost, and we can expect the same sorts of things now. God hasn't changed, and he still speaks to people today, sometimes even through open visions.

We are even commanded to "eagerly desire the spirituals" by Paul - to seek after God, and all the supernatural stuff he's got for us! That includes healings, deliverance, spiritual gifts, angelic visitations, visions, dreams, being 'carried away' in the spirit etc. God has good gifts for his children, and these things are good.

Now there are illegal ways to access the spirit realm - taking drugs, calling up the dead, palm reading, the occult. But there are also very legal ways - ask God!

From reading "The Final Quest", I don't get the impression that Joyner speifically wanted to speak to the apostle Paul. Certainly he wanted to have God-given visions...but that's not something you can conjure up! Often they came at quite inconvenient times as well.

What are the ways explicitly ordained and commanded by God for contact with the spirit realm? There seems to be pretty good evidence that open visions (wacky as they may be!) are ok by God - Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, Peter, John, Paul etc all had them.

What about Jesus then? He actually met Moses and Elijah on the mountain when he was transfigured (both dead people), as did a few of his disciples.

Just a few thoughts.

Timlings

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 7/5/2004 4:53 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by timlings

Seriously, stop!

This is just name calling.

In scripture, we are told that "young men will see visions and old men will have dreams" (Acts and Joel). Those sorts of manifestations came when the Spirit was poured out on pentecost, and we can expect the same sorts of things now. God hasn't changed, and he still speaks to people today, sometimes even through open visions.

We are even commanded to "eagerly desire the spirituals" by Paul - to seek after God, and all the supernatural stuff he's got for us! That includes healings, deliverance, spiritual gifts, angelic visitations, visions, dreams, being 'carried away' in the spirit etc. God has good gifts for his children, and these things are good.

Now there are illegal ways to access the spirit realm - taking drugs, calling up the dead, palm reading, the occult. But there are also very legal ways - ask God!

From reading "The Final Quest", I don't get the impression that Joyner speifically wanted to speak to the apostle Paul. Certainly he wanted to have God-given visions...but that's not something you can conjure up! Often they came at quite inconvenient times as well.

What are the ways explicitly ordained and commanded by God for contact with the spirit realm? There seems to be pretty good evidence that open visions (wacky as they may be!) are ok by God - Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah, Peter, John, Paul etc all had them.

What about Jesus then? He actually met Moses and Elijah on the mountain when he was transfigured (both dead people), as did a few of his disciples.

Just a few thoughts.

Timlings

I believe that God gives visions. I don't beleive that God initiates contact with the dead through visions or other spiritual means. I have addressed the experience of Jesus on the mount but I will be glad to do so again. Elijah wasn't dead, he road to heaven in a whirlwind after the chariot of fire went by.

Moses did die. It is somewhat mysterious as to what happened to his body as Jude mentions the Archangel Michael disputing with Satan over the body of Moses. Beyond this we don't know much. In the narrative on the mount, this is strangely the only instance in which Jesus was in his glorified body. At least Elijah was not a spirit. At that time, Jesus wasn't a typical man, but glorified. His glory was not a vision but witnessed by 3 men. When this event happened , the 3 men were overcome with sleep and were not a part of any conversation with the dead. It does say what the topic of conversation was, however, the events that Jesus was to experience.

We have a glorified body speaking and normal men sleeping and then observing. These 3 do not speak to the dead but call to Jesus. The most interesting event of all is the culmination. God Himself speaks from heaven with an audible voice and tells the 3 men, "This is my beloved Son. Listen to Him." God HImself tells the 3 apostles who they are to listen to, Jesus.

When Rick Joyner appears before other men in a glowing glorified body, tangibly, not just in his mind, perhaps there will be more to discuss. Until then, visions communicating with the dead cannot be considered to be given by the Holy Spirit.

Spen Lake

barryatk
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101

Posted 7/9/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6)

Hey All! Very Good Subjects.
I haven't read all of the Seeing is Believing yet, but I think it is gonna be a great help to the body of Christ. The issues many have with this is the use of our God-given imagination. I love how Leeanne Payne writes on this. She is a noted healer using God's Word and Inner Healing techniques. Greg Boyd is the most recent in my list of notable and blessed authors and preachers on this kind of healing. It is a huge source of controversy even in my immediate family.../they join with others who say the whole thing is "evil"....I just hold to the thought that they do not understand what they condemn.

On prophets...Joyner... I think the best teaching on this from the Word is Cindy Jacobs, and John and Paula Sandford. I have concerns with Joyner,Kim Clement, and others...I will not denounce them as not being men of God. I know any of us can be mistaken or darkened in our thinking, yet each day is new and God can revive and renew. Walking closely with my pastor, I know the huge warfare and struggle to try and remain in fellowship and enduring ridicule. God forgive us for being judgmental against prophetic folks that try hard to bless us with truth. Which of them would say they've never made a mistake or misheard the Holy Spirit?

Amazing to me that Dr. Boyd so patiently answers the critics, even as they seem not to always be kind and Chrsitian toward him in attitude.

Speaking of healing and memories...do you all study the controversy among the experts...some say these memories of childhood abuse are all or mostly all false memories. These types advocate the complete abandonment of such therapies. Many Christians are on this page to...saying that allthings have become new and leave all the old behind. I personally have talked to 2 women who blocked out just such a memory of sexual abuse... for around 20 years they could not recall it. Today, thanks to Jesus, they are both healed and being used as healers. I've know a couple men whose wives it seems have concealed memories along these lines...which they deny totally...these ladies, though Christian, seem to be sliding into darkness.
Seems to me, if Boyd's ideas of cataphonic praying were tried by such people, there would likely be some more healed people. I can barely understand the nay-sayers loud warnings that this may all be wrong.
I've been through church-sponsored Inner Healing and testify that it is good and needed.

Praising Him,
Barry

Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 7/9/2004 10:46 AM (GMT -6)

Sometimes suppressed memories have not been left behind. They still mess with us; we just don't think about them. Sometimes we have to confront our past to leave it behind.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

64 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 5:59 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual