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GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 6/26/2004 7:26 AM (GMT -6)

Sorry I haven’t been able to be active on this (or any other thread) because of time constraints. I have a short break in my schedule, so I’d like to weigh in with a couple of thoughts in response to objections that have been raised.

I. Is it REAL or is it Imagination? The practice of cataphatic prayer involves God making truth experiential in the imagination. It thus involves both God and the imagination. So the answer to the question – Does Dr. Boyd believe what he experiences in imaginative prayer to be real or imaginative – is “YES.” I believe it IS God, and believe it IS imaginative. I don’t for a moment believe I “contacted” my dead grandmother. Heavens sakes!!! I imagined her. But I firmly believe that the truth I experienced in my imaginative encounter was nevertheless real and God inspired.

It’s a bit like this. Though we are usually unaware of it, all are emotions are associated with concrete images in our mind. (I and Al Larsen have just finished a book called Escaping the Matrix that fleshes this neurological insight in a comprehensive way). So, suppose God wants you to have a more positive disposition toward (say) your mother and thus inspires you to imagine her in a very positive way. You fondly remember times together in the past and lovingly imagine her tenderly going about her business in the present. Now someone comes and asks you – is the women you were imagining your REAL mother? The answer, of course, would have to be a “yes” and “no.” Clearly the image in your brain is not LITERALLY your mother. She lives in Detroit and you’re in St. Paul. She weighs 129 pounds and your image weighs nothing. Etc… But just as clearly, your image REPRESENTS (literally, re-presents) your real mother. It’s an true image OF your mother, not your father or an elephant etc…

So too, the images in our minds that constitute our thought processes are re-presentations of things. They are “true” to the extent that they correspond in significant ways to the realities they re-present. Our mental images of Jesus, God, ourselves, our past, etc… are “true” and “real” insofar as they re-present the true Jesus, the true God, our true selves, our true past, etc… But our images are NOT themselves Jesus, God, our total selves, our past… (OF COURSE the basis of our re-presentations of (say) Jesus are different from that of our mother, for we never PHYSICALLY experience Jesus. But we DO know him via Scripture and the Holy Spirit working in our lives. Our re-presentations make this information concrete, vivid and experiential).

What the healing form of cataphatic prayer is about – as I state as clearly as I was able in my book – is not literally changing the past, but bringing the messages of the past into captivity to Jesus Christ (2 Cor 10:3-5). Part of who we experience ourselves to be in the present is anchored in the concrete memories-with-messages from our past. We can conceptually know that in Christ we are loved, holy, empowered etc… but we won’t experience this fully until THIS truth is experienced as concretely as our most vivid memories. Information alone doesn’t transform us. It’s what WE EXPERIENCE AS REAL that transforms us. (This is why so many people know so much while their actual experience doesn’t at all line up with what they know – and they are forever wondering “why”?).

I believe God wants us to be experientially defined by his love for us in Christ, not the wounding and sometimes demonic messages of our past. So, if we are open to it, God can make concrete his love for us by reworking the messages of the past – and by doing it as concretely, as vividly, and as experientially as the memories that contain the wounding and/or demonic memories. This is the healing form of cataphatic prayer.

What I experienced in the cataphatic encountered I testified about in my book was REAL, for the message of the encounter was TRUE. I REALLY AM loved. What I experienced as a two and a half year old child did not convey God’s attitude toward me. But what I experienced in my 30’s, through this cataphatic encounter, DID. And it did it in a way that was as concrete, vivid and real as the previous memory had been… which is why it was transforming. No new information was garnered. But information I already had was made concrete, vivid and therefore impacting. THAT’s what cataphatic spirituality is all about.

II.Is Greggie in fact a Bad Boy? Spenlake has asked, “But wasn’t it TRUE that Greggie was bad, for Greggie was a sinner”? And so wasn’t it demonic that the Jesus of Greg’s imagination said “Greggie is a good boy”? Two things can be said in response to this.

A) Does one really want to say its demonic when a parent or some other authority says to a little child, “good boy”? I certainly hope not. Perhaps it is theological true that the child is already a sinner in need of salvation. But should we withhold all praise of this child till they accept Jesus (and even THEN, how could we ever say a person is “good”?) Don't kids need affirmation? Isn't it the job of parents to model God's love toward their children and communicate to them the unsurpassable worth they have in God's eyes?

To dissect a healing, imaginative encounter with these sorts of theological technicalities is to entirely miss the point of the experience -- as badly as a parent who would refuse to call their child “good” on the basis of such theological technicalities. If a person can’t see that what my grandmother did to me when I was two and a half was damaging and thus can’t see that what Jesus did for me when he healed the memory of this episode was good – or worse, if they think such healing was demonic -- well, so be it. I feel bad for them. The Pharisees were wrong: Jesus does not cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

B) The point is not WHAT happened in the past. The point is THE MESSAGE of the past and how it impacts the present. The message “I am very very bad – so bad I don’t deserve Christmas presents” – was internalized in me at this impressionable age and had serious negative repercussions in my life. Now I as an adult know that in Christ I am not “very very bad.” But until the Good News reaches the little boy locked in the deep recesses of my brain, I’d to some degree remain captive – for the little boy is still captive. All the information in the world about who I truly am in Christ won’t overcome a message that is seared into a mind in a concrete, vivid, experiential way (as a memory). To take thoughts captive is not just to get new information… it’s to TAKE THE THOUGHTS -- the concrete, vivid images and words that are activated in our minds – captive to Christ. And to do this is to experience the truth of Christ over and against the messages of the memory in a way that is as real -- as concrete and vivid -- as the wounding messages.

III. Did my cataphatic encounter involve necromancy? I honestly have trouble taking this serious enough to answer. But I'll have a go at it.

If I sought to contact my dead grandmother and then claimed to literally encounter my dead grandmother, I could be accused of necromancy. But I continue to be utterly and completely mystified as to how anyone could possibly have gotten this out of Seeing is Believing. A God-inspired memory (which, note, always involves imagination) pertaining to a deceased person no more involves necromancy than a normal memory pertaining to a deceased person. God makes experientially concrete true messages and brings the real Jesus to us by reworking MESSAGES of the past. But, as I emphatically stated in the book, he does not literally change the past (a metaphysical impossibility) and he certainly doesn’t bring dead people to life before the end of the age.

IV. Could encounters like these be demonic? Four things need to be said.

a) Jesus said if we ask our human fathers for bread, they will not give us a stone. How much more will the heavenly Father give us the Holy Spirit and good things if we ask him. If ones heart is to know God, experience God, and experience further transformation into Christ-likeness, God is not going to respond to this desire by giving the person over to demons.

b) Paul says that a foundational aspect of our transformation is beholding the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ through our unveiled mind (2 Cor 3:-4:6). (I discuss this passge at length in the book). Beholding in our mind occurs in the imagination. Far from being demonic, therefore, the use of imagination in prayer seems to be foundational for spiritual growth. One of the fundamental reasons why many feel prayer and worship is a drudgery is because they’ve never been taught how to use their imagination in prayer and worship let alone allow God to inspire their imagination in prayer and worship.

Try thinking about the person you love most in life BUT DON’T FORM ANY IMAGE OF THEM IN YOUR MIND as you do it? Devoid of images, you can ONLY recite information about them (though even THAT is using VERBAL imagination) and it won’t impact you in the least. But now imagine the person you love most in life, and do it as vividly as you can. It impacts you. We think with our imaginations, and the more concrete, vivid and real-like our thoughts, the more impact the thought has on us.

Lack of imagination in prayer and worship and bible reading is one primary reason why so many people experience so little transformation and have little genuine passion for God, despite the fact that they may KNOW volumes of information ABOUT God.

c) The experience I had in which Jesus changed the message of a wounding memory was healing, magnificently highlighted the beauty of Jesus Christ, and brought forth greater conformity to Jesus Christ in my life. It bore great fruit. I could say the same of many other similar personal experiences as well as the experiences of multitudes of others using imaginative prayer over the last 17 years. Does this sound like the work of demons? You shall know them by their FRUIT. Jesus doesn’t cast out demons by Beelzebub the prince of demons.

d) Of course people CAN use their imaginations for demonic purposes. But because some can and do engage in this, does this mean we should consider Christ-centered uses of the imagination to be demonic? The fact that there are counterfiets doesn't negate the authenticity of realities, it rather confirms it, for people don't go around making counterfiet 7 dollar bills! Whereever you have a true thing, you'll find counterfiets. To deny the central roll of imagination in the Christians devotional life out of fear of counterfiets is to play into the strategy of the one who conjures up counterfiets for this very reason!

All for now,

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

quest for truth
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 6/26/2004 7:53 AM (GMT -6)

Greg Boyd, thank you so much for being so respectful in responding to Spen Lake. This is what Christian LOVE should look like -- respectfully responding to a brother who doesn't agree. I saw nothing belittling... I was hoping and praying that YOU would eventually respond to Spen Lake and give all of us further understanding on where you stand with the questions Spen has posed. King

I love and appreciate this part: "Paul says that a foundational aspect of our transformation is beholding the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ through our unveiled mind (2 Cor 3:-4:6)." Yes! We can experience Jesus through our unveiled minds and this experience is transforming, Spen Lake, try it for yourself. It brings life to praise and worship.

It brings transformation and healing. Nurse

Bobber
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199

Posted 6/26/2004 9:17 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
I believe God wants us to be experientially defined by his love for us in Christ, not the wounding and sometimes demonic messages of our past. So, if we are open to it, God can make concrete his love for us by reworking the messages of the past – and by doing it as concretely, as vividly, and as experientially as the memories that contain the wounding and/or demonic memories. This is the healing form of cataphatic prayer.

Im not sure what you mean Greg that God will rework the messages of the past and in so doing make concrete his love to us. I might be a little ignorant here but are you suggesting we're to envision certain things never happened to us? Maybe ive come in late on this but like I say im not sure what you mean. The Bible states about the past that we are to forget those things which are behind, but its not allowing our minds to go blank where we don't think upon something but rather that we now focus on who and what we are In Christ Jesus. Kind of like one of your teachings I heard on line about Peter Pan Escapes the Matrix. He focused on who and what he truly was even though that initially seemed crazy. Blush

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/26/2004 11:06 AM (GMT -6)

What Dr. Boyd said above was precisely the impression of "imaginative prayer" that I came away with by reading the book. Some obviously sincere Christians seem to have a real problem with other Christians using their imaginations in a creative or spiritual way.

The Puritans didn't even allow children to draw pictures, for fear that they would break the second commandment. Borg1

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/26/2004 12:14 PM (GMT -6)

SpenLake,

I think I can somewhat relate to those who have problems with imaginative techniques. Because I, myself, am a very non-visual, introverted, conceptual type person. I've asked my friends and family about what they consider predominant in their thinking/day-dreaming. For them it is pictures, for me it is definitely words/dialogue. I'm always having hypothetical disussions in my mind. This is how I sort out my arguments against those who oppose me. I even have a poor visual memory compared to other people. But I tend to remember what people say better than most people.

Point is, it's somewhat easy to be suspicious of psychological diversity until we understand it better. But psychological diversity is simply rooted in our genetics/physiology. Knowing that, as long as Greg is realistic in how he approaches his visualization, I can't see why it would be wrong - especially if it's helpful. I suppose one could just as easliy disagree with how I find encouragement in reading pure fiction like Lord of the Rings, etc. To me, such books are like exhortations to endure against evil and, thus, analogically, I find them a useful substitute for a lack of similar exhortations from real people. The fact that their rhetorical value is entertaining is just icing on the cake!!

wjs

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/26/2004 3:09 PM (GMT -6)

(Dr. Boyd) "It’s a bit like this. Though we are usually unaware of it, all are emotions are associated with concrete images in our mind. (I and Al Larsen have just finished a book called Escaping the Matrix that fleshes this neurological insight in a comprehensive way). So, suppose God wants you to have a more positive disposition toward (say) your mother and thus inspires you to imagine her in a very positive way. You fondly remember times together in the past and lovingly imagine her tenderly going about her business in the present. Now someone comes and asks you – is the women you were imagining your REAL mother? The answer, of course, would have to be a “yes” and “no.” Clearly the image in your brain is not LITERALLY your mother. She lives in Detroit and you’re in St. Paul. She weighs 129 pounds and your image weighs nothing. Etc… But just as clearly, your image REPRESENTS (literally, re-presents) your real mother. It’s an true image OF your mother, not your father or an elephant etc…"

(Jo-Anne) It amazes me how wonderfully He has created us. Being able to experience Him like that in prayer has lit a fire under my prayer life, and that has affected my walk with Him, how I see Him (and how I understand who I am in Him). Before a couple of years ago, praying was something I "knew I was supposed to do." I knew it was "supposed to make a difference." Now I KNOW. And I love my times alone with Him in prayer. I believe His spirit is speaking to us far more often then we take the time to hear. He has not just brought me understanding through this, but great comfort in times of trial. I've written most of my prose out of these times with him, and even a few songs.

(Dr Boyd) "So too, the images in our minds that constitute our thought processes are re-presentations of things. They are “true” to the extent that they correspond in significant ways to the realities they re-present. Our mental images of Jesus, God, ourselves, our past, etc… are “true” and “real” insofar as they re-present the true Jesus, the true God, our true selves, our true past, etc… But our images are NOT themselves Jesus, God, our total selves, our past… (OF COURSE the basis of our re-presentations of (say) Jesus are different from that of our mother, for we never PHYSICALLY experience Jesus. But we DO know him via Scripture and the Holy Spirit working in our lives. Our re-presentations make this information concrete, vivid and experiential)."

(Jo-Anne) He doesn't "put His hand in ours, in a physical way" but there have been times when I have sensed the presence of His Spirit so strongly, that it is felt physically. Does that make sense? I agree that what we experience needs to be congruent with the Word and the picture of the Father that we see in Jesus.

(Dr. Boyd) What the healing form of cataphatic prayer is about – as I state as clearly as I was able in my book – is not literally changing the past, but bringing the messages of the past into captivity to Jesus Christ (2 Cor 10:3-5). Part of who we experience ourselves to be in the present is anchored in the concrete memories-with-messages from our past. We can conceptually know that in Christ we are loved, holy, empowered etc… but we won’t experience this fully until THIS truth is experienced as concretely as our most vivid memories. Information alone doesn’t transform us. It’s what WE EXPERIENCE AS REAL that transforms us. (This is why so many people know so much while their actual experience doesn’t at all line up with what they know – and they are forever wondering “why”?).

(Jo-Anne) This book helped me to understand what happened to me just over two years ago in an experience in prayer (with a friend who is a prayer counsellor). We prayed for about 3 hours, and during that time Jesus "met" me, and I was set free as well from a very wounding memory as a little girl. It transformed my life, my walk with Him. It is amazing to me. I've been a believer for the past 27 years. I had wonderful grounding in the Word. I had the support of a church family and friends. I had even gone through some counselling to deal with abuse issues. But none of that changed that woundedness, until this vision in prayer with Jesus. I am living proof as well, that the Spirit transforms in this way. I have come to understand Romans 12:2 in a way that I never did before. He renews our minds, but that renewing takes place in more ways than just through hearing the Word. That's what I always thought before. The transformation in my life was so dramatic that it inspired a book, which has been published since. I know, Dr. Boyd, that this book is going to have wonderful results in peoples' lives. Perhaps that is why the attack on it has been so fierce?

(Dr Boyd) "I believe God wants us to be experientially defined by his love for us in Christ, not the wounding and sometimes demonic messages of our past. So, if we are open to it, God can make concrete his love for us by reworking the messages of the past – and by doing it as concretely, as vividly, and as experientially as the memories that contain the wounding and/or demonic memories. This is the healing form of cataphatic prayer."

(Jo-Anne) I could relate to what you said in your book about spending a fair bit of time with the Lord, before you had this vision. I spent hours every week praying about things in my life, reading the Word, and just resting in Him. Then I had this vision. I remember telling Him, before we went into this prayer session, that I only wanted to see what He wanted me to see. It was like "Part II" of a vision that I had had about a year previous during prayer. This transformation for me did not take place quickly. Not that it can't, but it was a journey for me.

(Dr. Boyd) What I experienced in the cataphatic encountered I testified about in my book was REAL, for the message of the encounter was TRUE. I REALLY AM loved. What I experienced as a two and a half year old child did not convey God’s attitude toward me. But what I experienced in my 30’s, through this cataphatic encounter, DID. And it did it in a way that was as concrete, vivid and real as the previous memory had been… which is why it was transforming. No new information was garnered. But information I already had was made concrete, vivid and therefore impacting. THAT’s what cataphatic spirituality is all about.

(Jo-Anne) My view of the Father changed dramatically with this vision. He is an awesome dad! Love is so powerful. It was there before, but I was not able to experience it the way He wanted me to. I am definitely sold on cataphatic spirituality!"
I hope that you write another book some day about this.

(Dr. Boyd) II.Is Greggie in fact a Bad Boy? Spenlake has asked, “But wasn’t it TRUE that Greggie was bad, for Greggie was a sinner”? And so wasn’t it demonic that the Jesus of Greg’s imagination said “Greggie is a good boy”? Two things can be said in response to this.

A) Does one really want to say its demonic when a parent or some other authority says to a little child, “good boy”? I certainly hope not. Perhaps it is theological true that the child is already a sinner in need of salvation. But should we withhold all praise of this child till they accept Jesus (and even THEN, how could we ever say a person is “good”?) Don't kids need affirmation? Isn't it the job of parents to model God's love toward their children and communicate to them the unsurpassable worth they have in God's eyes?

(Jo-Anne) A two and a half year old is innocent in God's eyes. And I think a lot of our struggling as believers (besides the fact that we are human) is that we do not have a view of the Father as He really is, and do not understand who we are in Him, and what is available to us because of that relationship. I'm still grasping that myself. I am reading a book right now called "Breaking the Cycle" by Dr. James Richards, and it talks about faith righteousness, and that the problem with what is going wrong in our lives, is often not what we do or don't do, but what we believe or don't believe (my paraphrase).

(Dr Boyd) To dissect a healing, imaginative encounter with these sorts of theological technicalities is to entirely miss the point of the experience -- as badly as a parent who would refuse to call their child “good” on the basis of such theological technicalities. If a person can’t see that what my grandmother did to me when I was two and a half was damaging and thus can’t see that what Jesus did for me when he healed the memory of this episode was good – or worse, if they think such healing was demonic -- well, so be it. I feel bad for them. The Pharisees were wrong: Jesus does not cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

(Jo-Anne) What is really sad is that we sometimes do not recognize transformation, or celebrate what the Spirit has accomplished in the lives of others. I think dissecting is more effective when frogs are involved.

(Dr. Boyd) B) "The point is not WHAT happened in the past. The point is THE MESSAGE of the past and how it impacts the present. The message “I am very very bad – so bad I don’t deserve Christmas presents” – was internalized in me at this impressionable age and had serious negative repercussions in my life. Now I as an adult know that in Christ I am not “very very bad.” But until the Good News reaches the little boy locked in the deep recesses of my brain, I’d to some degree remain captive – for the little boy is still captive. All the information in the world about who I truly am in Christ won’t overcome a message that is seared into a mind in a concrete, vivid, experiential way (as a memory). To take thoughts captive is not just to get new information… it’s to TAKE THE THOUGHTS -- the concrete, vivid images and words that are activated in our minds – captive to Christ. And to do this is to experience the truth of Christ over and against the messages of the memory in a way that is as real -- as concrete and vivid -- as the wounding messages.

(Jo-Anne) In the vision that I had, Jesus was with me in a bird cage (I know, I haven't told many people that because...well, they would probably think my "cheese had slipped off my cracker" except those who know me of course But, my point, when He was in that cage with me, it was me as a little girl. When He led me out, it was He and I, but I was an adult. I do believe He heals that way. It is a bit of a mystery. But, I find it fascinating. Time is no barrier for the Lord. He relates to us in time, but He transcends time. Does that make sense?

(Dr. Boyd) III. Did my cataphatic encounter involve necromancy? I honestly have trouble taking this serious enough to answer. But I'll have a go at it.

(Jo-Anne) I could not believe this either. Your experience was the farthest thing from a seance that I have heard of. But, I appreciate your humility and willingness to explain anyway. That same attitude is obvious in your books on the open view.

(Dr. Boyd) IV. Could encounters like these be demonic? Four things need to be said.

a) Jesus said if we ask our human fathers for bread, they will not give us a stone. How much more will the heavenly Father give us the Holy Spirit and good things if we ask him. If ones heart is to know God, experience God, and experience further transformation into Christ-likeness, God is not going to respond to this desire by giving the person over to demons.

(Jo-Anne) At some point we need to trust. Trust is a basic building block, and even to trust the transforming event (not "anti-event") in the life of another believer, as long as it fits with scripture and with the Jesus that we see.

(Dr. Boyd) b) Paul says that a foundational aspect of our transformation is beholding the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ through our unveiled mind (2 Cor 3:-4:6). (I discuss this passge at length in the book). Beholding in our mind occurs in the imagination. Far from being demonic, therefore, the use of imagination in prayer seems to be foundational for spiritual growth. One of the fundamental reasons why many feel prayer and worship is a drudgery is because they’ve never been taught how to use their imagination in prayer and worship let alone allow God to inspire their imagination in prayer and worship.

(Jo-Anne) Isn't this the same way that Christian Hymn writers, artists, songwriters, writers are inspired? I think this is wonderful. All of life is worship.

(Dr. Boyd) Try thinking about the person you love most in life BUT DON’T FORM ANY IMAGE OF THEM IN YOUR MIND as you do it? Devoid of images, you can ONLY recite information about them (though even THAT is using VERBAL imagination) and it won’t impact you in the least. But now imagine the person you love most in life, and do it as vividly as you can. It impacts you. We think with our imaginations, and the more concrete, vivid and real-like our thoughts, the more impact the thought has on us.

(Jo-Anne) That is why Jesus came (besides His accomplishment on the cross), so that we could relate to Him personally. How difficult it would be to relate to a nameless, faceless, impersonal God. Perhaps that is the difference between law and grace. It is religion or relationship. God wanted us to experience an amazing relationship with Him.

(Dr. Boyd) Lack of imagination in prayer and worship and bible reading is one primary reason why so many people experience so little transformation and have little genuine passion for God, despite the fact that they may KNOW volumes of information ABOUT God.

(Jo-Anne) The enemy connects us to a sense of lack, and knowledge or the law does not change that. It does not give us the Power to live. Our relationship (when we understand our identity in Him), gives us the power (grace) to "walk the walk," not just "talk the talk."

(Dr. Boyd) c) The experience I had in which Jesus changed the message of a wounding memory was healing, magnificently highlighted the beauty of Jesus Christ, and brought forth greater conformity to Jesus Christ in my life. It bore great fruit. I could say the same of many other similar personal experiences as well as the experiences of multitudes of others using imaginative prayer over the last 17 years. Does this sound like the work of demons? You shall know them by their FRUIT. Jesus doesn’t cast out demons by Beelzebub the prince of demons.

(Jo-Anne) It is sad when people miss what is really wonderful. It's like looking at the sky, with the sun shining and birds chirping, and focusing on one wispy cloud - and pronouncing that it's going to rain.

(Dr. Boyd) d) Of course people CAN use their imaginations for demonic purposes. But because some can and do engage in this, does this mean we should consider Christ-centered uses of the imagination to be demonic? The fact that there are counterfiets doesn't negate the authenticity of realities, it rather confirms it, for people don't go around making counterfiet 7 dollar bills! Whereever you have a true thing, you'll find counterfiets. To deny the central roll of imagination in the Christians devotional life out of fear of counterfiets is to play into the strategy of the one who conjures up counterfiets for this very reason!

(Jo-Anne) A pastor friend of ours once said, "The best way to know a counterfeit, is to know the real thing so well, that you recognize the fake almost immediately." I know His Spirit is able to help us discern. I think that Spen has had tons of people sharing their own thoughts, as well as scripture...but it has not made the difference. So, I can't help but think that this is about something else, and we are just not getting it?

(Jo-Anne) I know that I am not ultimately responsible for the responses, or misunderstandings of others, but I started this whole ball rolling - because I wanted to discuss your book. The other books have helped me in my understanding, but this was by far the most inspiring and practical book so far. The original thread was intended to be that, and ever since has become a tangled web of confusion, misunderstanding, and accusation. I can't change any of that, but I will be one of those to post responses on amazon from now on. I have read most of your books, but never felt that I "qualified" to write a review. That has changed now. I will.

God Bless. Cool

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 6/28/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6)

Dr. Boyd,

Thank you for taking time from your schedule to write a response. In your response you state,

Does Dr. Boyd believe what he experiences in imaginative prayer to be real or imaginative – is “YES.” I believe it IS God, and believe it IS imaginative. I don’t for a moment believe I “contacted” my dead grandmother. Heavens sakes!!! I imagined her. But I firmly believe that the truth I experienced in my imaginative encounter was nevertheless real and God inspired.

The story in your book with Jesus and your grandmother both speaking to you gives readers every reason to believe that Jesus and your grandmother were equally “real” in your spiritual experience. Earlier in your book you make the claim and cited Foster to the end that “the real Jesus will come to you.” So if this was the real Jesus saying real words that did not come from Greg’s imagination, then the grandmother who is hand and hand with Jesus and saying real words that I understood to be from your grandmother is also real in the same way. By what means would a reader of the book get the idea that Jesus was the real Jesus and the words were his words, but the grandmother was not the real grandmother and the words were not her words? At best the book is poorly written if you wished to convey the concept that your spiritual experience with your grandmother was not as "real" as the Jesus you were experiencing who was walking hand in hand with her. You make the claim above that it IS GOD. God inspiring your imagination and thus your interactions with the dead (spiritually, not bodily). If the grandmother’s words were ones that you imagined her saying because you wanted to imagine her saying them for the sake of making you feel better, how do you know that the words of Jesus that came through the same visionary experience were not just words Greg imagined Jesus would say. The story gives the same ontological status to Jesus and the grandmother. I fail to see how your readers would have made a distinction in their minds that Jesus was real and the grandmother was not. I understand your response, but this is in conflict with the claims of the book.

You state, "If I sought to contact my dead grandmother and then claimed to literally encounter my dead grandmother, I could be accused of necromancy. But I continue to be utterly and completely mystified as to how anyone could possibly have gotten this out of Seeing is Believing. A God-inspired memory (which, note, always involves imagination) pertaining to a deceased person no more involves necromancy than a normal memory pertaining to a deceased person. God makes experientially concrete true messages and brings the real Jesus to us by reworking MESSAGES of the past. But, as I emphatically stated in the book, he does not literally change the past (a metaphysical impossibility) and he certainly doesn’t bring dead people to life before the end of the age." Your narrative is not a "God inspired memory." Your narrative is something that wasn't a memory, but a new spiritual experience. You are claiming a "God inspired new spiritual experience" involving interaction with the dead occuring in your mind in conjunction with your imagination. The dead, along with Jesus and your imagination , brought you "messages." How is this different that a spiritist who follows calming techniques and then has imaginative visions and spiritual experiences with the dead within the mind in conjunction with their imagination? Would the message that a spiritist conveys to someone seeking comfort that a dead father truly loved their them and asked them for forgiveness be much different than your narrative?

No spiritist is necessarily claiming that the dead are brought to life, now or at the end of the age. I don't think bodily resurrection or contact that is necesdsarily part of the definition of "necromancy." Spiritual experiences that include interaction with the dead that bring us "messages" inspired by outside forces would be a better definition.

You state, "Could encounters like these be demonic?"

a) Jesus said if we ask our human fathers for bread, they will not give us a stone. How much more will the heavenly Father give us the Holy Spirit and good things if we ask him. If ones heart is to know God, experience God, and experience further transformation into Christ-likeness, God is not going to respond to this desire by giving the person over to demons.

You claim to know this is from the Holy Spirit based on the passage about asking for bread. This needs an exegetical response. Asking for the Holy Spirit, or asking for bread, does not give us the liberty to ask for things God has forbidden. Seeking hidden, spiritual information outside of God’s ordained means is divination. Suppose someone bought a Ouija board and asked the Holy Spirit to use it for good. Would this mean that you could trust the information WAS from the Holy Spirit? Not at all. So the question is whether the Scriptures provide “cataphatic prayer” as a legitimate means of coming to God. If they do not, then doing so is going outside God’s ordained means of grace. Going outside of what God has ordained opens us to deception.

b) You make a category switch in your use of “imagination.” You make a definition based on our normal means of remembering or imagining, on our own without "outside forces" inspiring us. Then you apply that normal definition to your technique for contacting the spirit world and include a spiritual power from that world inspire your imagination to come alive and reflect inspired "living" imaginations. What is being told you through this living imagination is not under your control, but the control of the spirit being whom you claim to be the Holy Spirit. How do you know this is Jesus when Jesus never explicitly told us to try to contact Him in this manner? Your self-invoked visionary experience is not in the same category of any of the Biblical passages cited, including Peter’s vision or the passage in 2 Corinthians he cites. You have failed to prove through historical or grammatical means that Paul’s meaning has anything to do with your technique.

Do those in the occult who claim to experience interactions with the dead in visions and impressions use their imaginations? It would seem that the imagination is central to those having spiritual experiences that involve the dead. They are not interacting with them bodily, nor do they claim to as far as I know. They meet the dead in their imaginations as spiritual experiences. How do we know that what is being proposed as "imaginative techniques" for spiritual experiences do not involve the same outside forces that inspire the imaginations of those who follow the occult and find healing and comfort there?

There is scriptural support to your claim, "Information alone doesn’t transform us." The Word of God (cognitive truth in your words) isn't enough to change us and save us. ONLY the Word is not enough and it does not give life on its own. It is what you are claiming needs to be added to the Word that appears distorted and unscriptural. Hebrew 4:2 states, "For indeed we have the good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them because it was not united by faith in those who heard." The context of this passage deals with "experiential truth" of the supernatural and God's promises. The context seems core to the issues that you want to address. However, the author is saying that faith, not experience, is not the key factor that needs to be joined to the Word. When the Word is united with faith it produced fruit. If I take your concepts of imagination in this light, you seem to equate the imagination with "faith" claiming that if the Word is united with my imagination, then it will bear fruit. I don't think that it is a biblical concept to equate the imagination with faith in this way. Your psychology research seems to be what you use to support this premise more than the scriptures. Uniting our imaginations with spiritual power is the concepts behind the various occult "visualization" and magic techniques.

The fact that you had a good experience has no bearing on the argument. That good experience could have been provided by evil spirits in order to delude you into thinking this technique is a legitimate means of grace and to write a book to lead others into it. Having a “good experience” is not a biblical means of discernment.

I think that there must be a lack of belief or confidence in the faith of God to work along with the Word. Perhaps this is another expression of the differences between synergism and monergism. Synergism would explain that we are using the power of our imagination to "spiritually experience what we believe to be true" in order to have it become "real" so that we can obtain "faith" that changes us. In contrast, the passage in Hebrews could be interpreted in such a way that God gives us the faith that is united with His Word and that this combination, both given by God, changes us and bears fruit of righteousness and eternal life.

Spen Lake

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 6/28/2004 3:06 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
In contrast, the passage in Hebrews could be interpreted in such a way that God gives us the faith that is united with His Word and that this combination, both given by God, changes us and bears fruit of righteousness and eternal life.

You're wrong because the faith is ours:

Paul says:

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Grace is the "it", grace is the gift. If faith were the gift, then grace isn't the gift. So you don't think grace is a gift.

Paul reinforces this:

Hebrews 11:39 "And all these, having gained approval through their faith"

Jesus supports this:

Matthew 9:22 "But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.

Luke 17:17 "Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine--where are they?
18 Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?"
19 And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well.""

Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Why would Jesus be apprehensive about the lack of something He [supposedly] gives? Not enough faith on earth, Jesus? That's your fault then.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 6/28/2004 4:00 AM (GMT -6)

What I've dug up about necromancy is that it usually involves:

1. a medium, a person who is the channeler
2. requests about the future

From what I've gleaned, imaginative prayer involves neither of these.

I can see the dangers of both (1,2), using anyone else as a "go-between" opens you up to the chance of being deceived by the go-between.

Requesting facts about something that hasn't happened yet, and of which no facts exist yet, also opens you up to deception.

But by myself, pondering the set of facts known as the past, discovering the truth about what happened and negating the false beliefs that I held, hopefully everyone does this. "Telling yourself the truth", replacing lies with truth. Not forgetting the past so you don't make the same mistakes in the future.

The first date with my wife, I misinterpreted some things she did, fortunately, I kept pursuing her and later found out the truth of what she was doing, negating the false beliefs I had about those. whew! It'd be moronic to think that by discovering the truth about the past I had committed necromancy, or created "anti-events", (whatever the heck those are).....

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 6/28/2004 4:17 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake

What I've dug up about necromancy is that it usually involves:

1. a medium, a person who is the channeler
2. requests about the future

From what I've gleaned, imaginative prayer involves neither of these.

I can see the dangers of both (1,2), using anyone else as a "go-between" opens you up to the chance of being deceived by the go-between.

Requesting facts about something that hasn't happened yet, and of which no facts exist yet, also opens you up to deception.

But by myself, pondering the set of facts known as the past, discovering the truth about what happened and negating the false beliefs that I held, hopefully everyone does this. "Telling yourself the truth", replacing lies with truth. Not forgetting the past so you don't make the same mistakes in the future.

The first date with my wife, I misinterpreted some things she did, fortunately, I kept pursuing her and later found out the truth of what she was doing, negating the false beliefs I had about those. whew! It'd be moronic to think that by discovering the truth about the past I had committed necromancy, or created "anti-events", (whatever the heck those are).....

There is a necromancy thread that covered this issue. What is interesting is what the scriptures mean concerning this issue. It would seem that the meium or person involved with the spirits would be using their imagination? They are not dealing with the bodies of the dead but with "visions" or impressions of the dead. How does this happen and what is legal according to scriptures. Imagined spiritual encounters with the dead seem to be forbidden as I understand it. If they are not forbidden, where do you find biblical proof?

You state, "Requesting facts about something that hasn't happened yet, and of which no facts exist yet, also opens you up to deception." The events of Dr. Boyd's narrative had not happened up until he "experienced them spiritually" internally as a vision in his imagination. (Where do mediums experience their "visions"?) The events were not memories but new experiences to teach him what he believes is "truth." Is the pursuit of truth a sufficient excuse to imagine interactions with the dead as inspired?

Spen Lake

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 6/28/2004 4:27 AM (GMT -6)

Spenlake: "That good experience could have been provided by evil spirits in order to delude you into thinking this technique is a legitimate means of grace and to write a book to lead others into it."

Big Smile

That comment ranks at an all-time high on the Unintentional Comedy Scale.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 6/28/2004 5:07 AM (GMT -6)

Spenlake: Of course, EVERYTHING could be evil spirits for all we know (so little do we know). While I am grateful that Doctor Boyd took some time out to answer Spenlake's questions, in all honesty I think they do more to confirm what others who support the book believe, then to actually open avenues of discussion with Spenlake. The simple fact that he used such a word (nerocmacy) and involved Doctor Boyd's book with it and that he feels such a strong need to continue to "rebuke" the book shows just how little light there is to continue this discussion with him.
I praise Doctor Boyd for his time, but I caution him (given his busy schedule), to think over whether to use more of it on someone who so obviously does not wish to see this issue from any other standpoint than "evil" he has found in it.

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 6/28/2004 5:11 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
It would seem that the meium or person involved with the spirits would be using their imagination? They are not dealing with the bodies of the dead but with "visions" or impressions of the dead.

Visions of the dead? The actual dead person? You don't know what they are and have no proof of the physical makeup of the ghoul.

1. Imaginative prayer does NOT use a medium.

quote:

You state, "Requesting facts about something that hasn't happened yet, and of which no facts exist yet, also opens you up to deception." The events of Dr. Boyd's narrative had not happened up until he "experienced them spiritually" internally as a vision in his imagination.

Meditating on past events and then re-assessing the meaning of those past events is NOT changing the past. The past are factual events that can't be changed. The danger is what we could possibly do in the future. God is concerned about what we do from here on out, not what we did in the past. He wants us to re-evaluate the past in order to correct the misbeliefs we have. This will help us behave correctly in the future.

2. Imaginative prayer is not about requesting facts about the future.

Imaginative prayer is NOT necromancy.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 6/28/2004 5:15 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

Spenlake: Of course, EVERYTHING could be evil spirits for all we know (so little do we know). While I am grateful that Doctor Boyd took some time out to answer Spenlake's questions, in all honesty I think they do more to confirm what others who support the book believe, then to actually open avenues of discussion with Spenlake. The simple fact that he used such a word (nerocmacy) and involved Doctor Boyd's book with it and that he feels such a strong need to continue to "rebuke" the book shows just how little light there is to continue this discussion with him.

Exactly, on four separate threads he linked the book with:
mysticism
the "BBC Gospel", whatever that is
necromancy
Mormon truth

May we suggest some other "links":

"Seeing is Believing" -- Offtrack betting
"Seeing is Believing" -- Hooliganism
"Seeing is Believing" -- Being sensitive to seekers of God
.
.
.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 6/28/2004 1:41 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake

[quote]
"Seeing is Believing" -- Hooliganism

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/28/2004 1:43 PM (GMT -6)

In "immaginative prayer" who is in the driver's seat?

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/28/2004 2:22 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

In "immaginative prayer" who is in the driver's seat?

The Holy Spirit Big Smile

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 6/28/2004 4:16 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j

quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

In "immaginative prayer" who is in the driver's seat?

The Holy Spirit

Jo-Anne

Eggs-actly!

The Holy Spirit, in league with scripture, you can experience Jesus as He told His detractors:

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

Life is in Jesus.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

larris
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181

Posted 6/28/2004 5:57 PM (GMT -6)

Dr. Boyd,

Is what you are speaking of any thing like what is discussed on this web page?

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1997ii/Caddock.html

As to the above sight, I have no afiliation, nor do I know what they teach on other subjects, but in looking up the word "cataphatic", besides finding the Bahi all over the place doing it, and the Budists, and the psychologist and the mystics of every age, I found this guys pretty thought provoking article.

You stated: What the healing form of cataphatic prayer is about – as I state as clearly as I was able in my book – is not literally changing the past, but bringing the messages of the past into captivity to Jesus Christ (2 Cor 10:3-5). Part of who we experience ourselves to be in the present is anchored in the concrete memories-with-messages from our past. We can conceptually know that in Christ we are loved, holy, empowered etc… but we won’t experience this fully until THIS truth is experienced as concretely as our most vivid memories. Information alone doesn’t transform us. It’s what WE EXPERIENCE AS REAL that transforms us. (This is why so many people know so much while their actual experience doesn’t at all line up with what they know – and they are forever wondering “why”?).

Paul says that we FORGET THOSE THINGS THAT ARE BEHIND, not change the memory of them into something that is not true to begin with, just to make ourselves feel better.

Leading every thought captive to Christ, is just that leading every thought captive. When Christ says to forgive your enemies and those who have hurt you, I do not believe he gives you a vision of them as a nice person to make it easier for you.

But you are saying here that through "cataphatic" prayer Jesus will literally come and just change the bad memory to a good one and that is leading every thought captive to Christ. Sounds to me like that is more jung (what's his name) phychology and mysticisim more than the actual Word of God.

I don't agree with mysticism no matter what form it comes in or what names used to describe it. Now this imaginative prayer thing seems like a new way to discribe and old thing, namely eastern mystic meditation. But then there are lot's of Christians who do not see a thing wrong with that stuff. But I'm not one of them.

I mean I could be all wrong, since I haven't read your book, if it has nothing to do with mysticisim, or neo plantonism or jung (what's his name) psychology, then I'd like to know.

In Christ,
larris

"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31)

quest for truth
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 6/28/2004 6:34 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Spenlake: "That good experience could have been provided by evil spirits in order to delude you into thinking this technique is a legitimate means of grace and to write a book to lead others into it."

That comment ranks at an all-time high on the Unintentional Comedy Scale.

BJS, sorry but this comment was NOT necessary since I don't think Spen Lake meant it as a joke.

feelinahole

quote:
I praise Doctor Boyd for his time, but I caution him (given his busy schedule), to think over whether to use more of it on someone who so obviously does not wish to see this issue from any other standpoint than "evil" he has found in it.

I disagree. I APPLAUD Dr. Boyd for taking time to interact with someone who disagrees with his book. I think this is what Jesus meant by "turn the other cheek" of course we all need boundaries.

Spen Lake and larris, I believe the thing that you are missing is that the exercise Dr. Boyd teaches through his book is meant for people who are STUCK in a memory of the past that is destroying their life in the present. Spen Lake, perhaps for you it would help to have you and Jesus watching the made up scenario and have Jesus speak the truth to you through the Holy Spirit -- in this way you could separate the "real" encounter with Christ from the imaginated screen that you are watching.

Dr. Boyd, thank you for your heart to assist those who question your book(s) because we all learn and grow from the interaction.

The concerns Spen Lake has will be concerns many of us may face when attempting to teach this same type of technique to a friend or family member. To listen to what Spen Lake is voicing (instead of belittling his posts) can be educational and helpful for the next skeptic.

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/28/2004 8:41 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth

quote:
Spenlake: "That good experience could have been provided by evil spirits in order to delude you into thinking this technique is a legitimate means of grace and to write a book to lead others into it."

That comment ranks at an all-time high on the Unintentional Comedy Scale.

BJS, sorry but this comment was NOT necessary since I don't think Spen Lake meant it as a joke.

feelinahole
quote:
I praise Doctor Boyd for his time, but I caution him (given his busy schedule), to think over whether to use more of it on someone who so obviously does not wish to see this issue from any other standpoint than "evil" he has found in it.

I disagree. I APPLAUD Dr. Boyd for taking time to interact with someone who disagrees with his book. I think this is what Jesus meant by "turn the other cheek" of course we all need boundaries.

Spen Lake and larris, I believe the thing that you are missing is that the exercise Dr. Boyd teaches through his book is meant for people who are STUCK in a memory of the past that is destroying their life in the present. Spen Lake, perhaps for you it would help to have you and Jesus watching the made up scenario and have Jesus speak the truth to you through the Holy Spirit -- in this way you could separate the "real" encounter with Christ from the imaginated screen that you are watching.

Dr. Boyd, thank you for your heart to assist those who question your book(s) because we all learn and grow from the interaction.

The concerns Spen Lake has will be concerns many of us may face when attempting to teach this same type of technique to a friend or family member. To listen to what Spen Lake is voicing (instead of belittling his posts) can be educational and helpful for the next skeptic.

Hello Quest,

I would like to ask (again), who has read this book (all of it)?

I've asked spen this question several times, and was never given an answer. This appears to be proof text to me, and it is destructive. The only "technique" being taught in the book is resting in Christ. I'm sorry Quest. I understand your wanting to be as open as possible. You are a very gracious person. I am too. But, I have seen nothing short of character assasination on Spen's part - with regard to Dr Boyd. He has accused him of things that are demonic. Necromancy would be evil, and that is what he is being accused of.

I rarely speak this plainly, but this is doing more harm, than helping the Kingdom. There is an agenda here, and it is being carried out with a vengeance. That is what I have observed. There has been grace extended repeatedly and to no avail.

I believe that Spen actually believes what he is propagating. That is what is really sad.

I highly recommend the book. It is an inspiring book on resting in Christ, and it sounds like it is already having an impact on people's lives. I would love to hear some of those stories, and I would love to have just one positive discussion on the book. What a shame to take something that was intended to encourage believers and glorify God - and trash it.

That is what I see. I do not have anything personally against Spen. He was the first to pray for our son when he was hurt, and one of the few to ask how he was afterwards. I appreciated that. But the vendetta against Dr Boyd and this book has amazed me. It is appalling. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit will use this book, people will rest in Christ and be healed.

God Bless you Quest.

Jo-Anne Nurse

I wish we could make things better here, but sometimes you just can't. I guess that's why the saying goes, "As far as possible, if it is up to you, be at peace with all men." There is free will (human and other), and the complexity of creation....so no one really knows why this slander continues.

My question: What is this doing to further the cause of Christ? How is this upbuilding, consoling or encouraging? What is praiseworthy about any of this?

Knife

P.S. I read the book.

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/28/2004 9:29 PM (GMT -6)

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 6/29/2004 2:21 AM (GMT -6)

To Spenlake & others,

(Spen) The story in your book with Jesus and your grandmother both speaking to you gives readers every reason to believe that Jesus and your grandmother were equally “real” in your spiritual experience.

(Jo-Anne) Spen, when you have a vision that is inspired by the Holy Spirit - is one part "real" and another part "not so real?"

Spen replies: Spiritual experiences in our imagination are no different for Christians than for non-Christians or spiritists. The non-Christians claim that their spiritual experiences are "real" in the same way as Dr. Boyd. The difference between Christian/non-Christian is NOT an inspired imagination. The occultists have this as well.

(Spenlake) Earlier in your book you make the claim and cited Foster to the end that “the real Jesus will come to you.” So if this was the real Jesus saying real words that did not come from Greg’s imagination, then the grandmother who is hand and hand with Jesus and saying real words that I understood to be from your grandmother is also real in the same way. By what means would a reader of the book get the idea that Jesus was the real Jesus and the words were his words, but the grandmother was not the real grandmother and the words were not her words?

(Jo-Anne) In the same way that Jesus was the real Jesus in my vision, but it was not really me as a little girl. They were both as real as they could be, in a vision inspired by the Holy Spirit. Spen, this does not make sense. Anyone who has had a vision would say that part of the vision was as real as the next. But, people recognize, because they do not stay in the vision - that they have had an encounter with the living Lord. He was not just the Jesus in the vision - but He IS the Jesus who indwells them. He sent His comforter. That's real!

Spen replies: In the same way that you claim that the Jesus you find inspired by spiritual forces in your imagination is "real" and impacts you. In this same way, Dr. Boyd has described an experience with the dead, which is forbidden. Dr. Boyd's experience with the dead is just as "real" as that of the occultists who also experience the dead in their imaginations. Both Dr. Boyd and the occultists received "messages" from the dead. The only difference is that Dr. Boyd claims that the Holy Spirit inspired his experiences with the dead and the message he received. The trouble with this claim is that Deut 18 forbids this practice, regardless of the messages that are found there.

(Spenlake) At best the book is poorly written if you wished to convey the concept that your spiritual experience with your grandmother was not as "real" as the Jesus you were experiencing who was walking hand in hand with her. You make the claim above that it IS GOD. God inspiring your imagination and thus your interactions with the dead (spiritually, not bodily).

(Jo-Anne) Of course the grandmother was not as real. The vision was inspired by the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer. If the grandmother was as real (afterwards), there would be a problem. During the vision - yes, but afterwards, it is the Holy Spirit who indwells and bears witness with our spirit, enabling us to cry, "Abba Father" You have badly misinterpreted this book Spen. You have tried repeatedly to disgrace its message. It is not a book about "interacting with the dead." It is a book about experiencing Jesus in prayer (imaginative prayer), and that profoundly changes lives. The enemy is not interested in lighting a fire under our prayer life - not in the least. He is interested in this though.

Spen replies: The grandmother was as "real" in the vision as Jesus was. They communicate the same way. They interact the same way. They hold hands. They BOTH bring Dr. Boyd messages that he considers "real." Dr. Boyd's spiritual experience with his grandmother in his imagination is no different than that of a spiritist who experiences their grandmother in visions in their imagination. Neither expect "to wake up" and find her standing there. Both claim to have heard messages from their grandmother, who is dead. Both claim that the experiences were inpired by spirits.

(Spenlake) If the grandmother’s words were ones that you imagined her saying because you wanted to imagine her saying them for the sake of making you feel better, how do you know that the words of Jesus that came through the same visionary experience were not just words Greg imagined Jesus would say. The story gives the same ontological status to Jesus and the grandmother. I fail to see how your readers would have made a distinction in their minds that Jesus was real and the grandmother was not.

(Jo-Anne) Because, JESUS IS REAL and the grandmother WAS NOT. Jesus still lives on in the believer. Most believers would make that distinction. I never dreamed that Dr Boyd was implying that his grandmother was actually there. He made it clear, that this was an experience in prayer.

Spen replies: The spiritual experience with the grandmother was as much "there" as was the spiritual experience with Jesus. If the grandmother "wasn't there," then Jesus "wasn't there" either and the entire experience was a silly imagination that wasn't inspired at all. Neither you nor Dr. Boyd expected to see Jesus standing physically in front of him when he "awake" from the vision, the same is true for his vision of the dead. The experience itself is forbidden, even if is seems that Jesus is leading you there. The Holy Spirit does inspire spiritual experienceswith the dead to deliver messages. This is what is being claimed.

You state, "If I sought to contact my dead grandmother and then claimed to literally encounter my dead grandmother, I could be accused of necromancy. But I continue to be utterly and completely mystified as to how anyone could possibly have gotten this out of Seeing is Believing.

(Jo-Anne) Who else got this out of Seeing is Believing? This is an unbelieveable accusation.

Spen replies: Dr. Boyd in the above statement from his "response" seems to imply that only if he thought that he encountered his grandmother bodily or physically in some way, outside of his imagination, then it would be necromancy. What do the spiritists do? They encounter spirits in their imaginations using techniques that mirror the techniques being proposed by Dr. Boyd. They don't claim "more" in terms of spiritual experiences than Dr. Boyd is claiming to have experienced in his imagination. They claim the same experience, not "bodily" encounters.

(Spenlake) You claim to know this is from the Holy Spirit based on the passage about asking for bread. This needs an exegetical response. Asking for the Holy Spirit, or asking for bread, does not give us the liberty to ask for things God has forbidden. Seeking hidden, spiritual information outside of God’s ordained means is divination.

(Jo-Anne) I sincerely hope that you realize how serious what you are implying is, and that you carefully consider that you are attributing the work of God to Satan here. And - God does not forbid us seeking Him in prayer.

(Spenlake) Suppose someone bought a Ouija board and asked the Holy Spirit to use it for good. Would this mean that you could trust the information WAS from the Holy Spirit? Not at all. So the question is whether the Scriptures provide “cataphatic prayer” as a legitimate means of coming to God. If they do not, then doing so is going outside God’s ordained means of grace. Going outside of what God has ordained opens us to deception.

(Jo-Anne) How can we tell the Holy Spirit not to use the imagination that He created us with? There would be no more visions from God, or dreams from God, perhaps there would be no artists who visualized something during imaginative prayer - producing a work of art that glorified Him. Perhaps we would not have some of our scripture that we have now? Perhaps we would not have some of our poetry. Perhaps...

Spen replies: I am not telling the Holy Spirit that He cannot use our imagination. I am saying that the real Holy Spirit will not violate Deut 18 and inspire spiritual experiences with the dead. It is a violation of who He is to do so. Satan can come as "another Jesus" and an angel of light. We are commanded to test the spirits and not to believe every spirit. Any spirit that inspired spiritual experiences with the dead is not and cannot be the Holy Spirit.

(Spenlake) b) You make a category switch in your use of “imagination.” You make a definition based on our normal means of remembering or imagining, on our own without "outside forces" inspiring us. Then you apply that normal definition to your technique for contacting the spirit world and include a spiritual power from that world inspire your imagination to come alive and reflect inspired "living" imaginations.

(Jo-Anne) "spirit world?" Yes, there is one, and we contact it every time we think a thought to Him, sing to Him, pray for Him, and whether we realize it or not - we are part of a cosmic battle. The battle is waged against principalities and powers, not flesh and blood - so yes, we all contact a "spirit world." But, we do need to trust the Holy Spirit who indwells us. We know His voice.

Spen replies: The voice of the Holy Spirit is consistent with the scriptures and will not inspire spiritual experiences with the dead to deliver a message, any message. God can and may "raise the dead" physically and have a "living" person with a body speak to us and this would be legal. We do not know the voice of the Holy Spirit if we claim it inspires spiritual experiences with the dead.

(Spenlake) What is being told you through this living imagination is not under your control, but the control of the spirit being whom you claim to be the Holy Spirit.

(Jo-Anne) Is there even a chance in your mind that it could have been the Holy Spirit Spen? Or are you 100% positive that it wasn't? Do you have some hard, fast evidence that we are unaware of to prove the contrary? Why can you not believe the transforming experience of a sincere believer? I bet you don't get many people sharing these experiences with you? You told me that my experience "rang true" with scripture. That it fit with what scripture taught. Scripture teaches that He came to "set the captives free." That is what is happening here as well. It fits the picture of the Father, that we see in Jesus Christ.

Spen replies: The hard fast evidence is found in Deut 18.

(Spenlake) How do you know this is Jesus when Jesus never explicitly told us to try to contact Him in this manner?

(Jo-Anne) (I think He told us to "pray without ceasing." I think that covers any and all manner of contact.

Spen replies: This is exactly what is not true. We are given "manners of contact" that are forbidden in Deut 18. These are not allowed and no matter what the "fruit" of such forbidden techniques, they remain destructive to Christians.

(Spenlake) Your self-invoked visionary experience is not in the same category of any of the Biblical passages cited, including Peter’s vision or the passage in 2 Corinthians he cites. You have failed to prove through historical or grammatical means that Paul’s meaning has anything to do with your technique.

(Jo-Anne) (In the book, Dr Boyd lets his readers know that there is no set "formula" but shares this as one possibility. When did prayer become a technique. Spen, if you discovered a wonderful way of experiencing Jesus, and it transformed your life as a believer, would you not want to share it with others? Look what the Lord has done?!

Spen replies: In the book Dr. Boyd outlines "exercises" that contribute to imaginative prayer. He gives latitude as to how each person implements them, but he defintitely teaches exercises in his book.

(Spenlake) Do those in the occult who claim to experience interactions with the dead in visions and impressions use their imaginations? It would seem that the imagination is central to those having spiritual experiences that involve the dead. They are not interacting with them bodily, nor do they claim to as far as I know. They meet the dead in their imaginations as spiritual experiences. How do we know that what is being proposed as "imaginative techniques" for spiritual experiences do not involve the same outside forces that inspire the imaginations of those who follow the occult and find healing and comfort there?

(Jo-Anne) How do we know that those who speak in tongues, who are sincere believers, are not being duped as well by the enemy? Yes, He is the great deceiver, but - should we live our life in fear? Should we risk the possibility (even of transformation) that the Lord desires for us - because we are afraid of the enemy?

Spen replies: This is sooo different. Far from being something "forbidden," we know that "speaking in tongues" is something that God has actually promised to us. He has told us in scriptures that this can happen among believers. We are given examples of this in scriptures. We are never given an example of "good spiritual experiences" with the dead. This is always forbidden. There is no exception. We should not live in fear, just obedience. We need not fear receiving deceptive messages from the dead if we don't allow ourselves to participate in spiritual experiences that include them.

(Spenlake) I don't think that it is a biblical concept to equate the imagination with faith in this way.

(Jo-Anne) When you have an encounter with the Living God - it increases your faith. The two go hand in hand.

Spen replies: Faith is not the imagination. I don't see scripture equating the two.

(Spenlake) Your psychology research seems to be what you use to support this premise more than the scriptures. Uniting our imaginations with spiritual power is the concepts behind the various occult "visualization" and magic techniques.

(Jo-Anne) You are, again, implying some very serious things here, and I'm sure that some may hesitate to read the book. But, I would encourage them too. They will be delightfully surprised.

(Spenlake) The fact that you had a good experience has no bearing on the argument.

(Jo-Anne) There is quite a difference between a good experience (I've had so many of those), and a transforming experience (those are life changing).

(Spenlake) That good experience could have been provided by evil spirits in order to delude you into thinking this technique is a legitimate means of grace and to write a book to lead others into it.

(Jo-Anne) A transforming experience in prayer - provided by evil spirits, to delude him into writing a book that would lead others into transforming experiences in prayer? Wow. The enemy is stupider than we thought if this is the case.

(Spenlake) I think that there must be a lack of belief or confidence in the faith of God to work along with the Word.

(Jo-Anne) You know what Spen. People might actually consider some of what you said, if it wasn't chalk full of judgementalism, if it wasn't raining disgrace down on someone whose books have shown nothing but the opposite - graciousness, and a desire to encourage the life of believers. Man, don't you have "bigger fish to fry?"

I'm amazed that this continues. I'm amazed at the patience and graciousness extended so far. There is a time to "stand up and be counted" though - and I guess, this was my time.

I pray that God will reveal your heart to you Spen. I pray that you will see what damage you are doing here, the seriousness of your accusations against a brother in Christ - and ones that are sorely unfounded, because they have misrepresented a book. You must have read a different book.

Or, perhaps you should re-read it. Pray about it first? See what the Holy Spirit shows you.

I pray that you will have a peace about this, and be able to move on in your walk with the Father. I'm moving on.
Spen Lake

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/29/2004 2:34 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Spen replies: Spiritual experiences in our imagination are no different for Christians than for non-Christians or spiritists.

Christians have scripture and the Holy Spirit. Thus, spiritual experiences are different.

"Ezekial saw the wheel, way up in the middle of the air...."

WHAT DOES "SPIRITUAL" MEAN? Biblically, it means "according to the Spirit" -- Holiness.

So, a "spiritual experience" is a REAL event where we are not controled by the passions of the flesh, but instead humbly embrace God's perspective on life.

A "spiritual experience" is an ordinary but greatly humbling event. Like seeing someone like a small autistic child in need, and being humbled at being able to do such a small part in helping him. . .even while being humbled more by his own courage, love, and resiliance under pressure.

Upheld by grace, received as God's creation, supported as His New Creation in Christ. . . given a task and a calling. . . walking by faith. . .

"Spiritual experience" is not "mystical!"

SwanLake
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116

Posted 6/29/2004 2:36 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Spen replies: Spiritual experiences in our imagination are no different for Christians than for non-Christians or spiritists.

Christians have scripture and the Holy Spirit. Thus, spiritual experiences are different.

quote:

Spen replies: This is sooo different. Far from being something "forbidden," we know that "speaking in tongues" is something that God has actually promised to us. He has told us in scriptures that this can happen among believers.

A promise?

Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions."

John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey

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