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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/16/2004 2:01 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I think I completely ran that one into the ground.
Yep.
To speculate, God could have used something besides wine and bread too. And something besides water. But in history, geography, culture, civilization etc. that is what we have.
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
but are you a baptist or an Eastern Orthodo...
Born, then baptized Swedish Baptist. Taught college in Free Methodist, Wesleyan-Methodist, Nazarene, Dutch Reformed, Bretheran and Baptist collges. Member of a Christian Reformed Church (Zero-point-Calvinist by the way!!!) And have a brother-in-law who used to be a Protestand minister and now is an Orthodox Priest.
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
(What do you call someone who's Eastern Orthodox?)
Orthodox. Its not a denomination. There is no Western Orthodox or "Eastern Orthodox" (the later is a term, though). And governance is local, so you have Bulgarian Orth, and Serbian, and etc. (In America with their immigrant patters, etc., you have overlapping jurisdictions etc., which is a regretable, unavoidable mess. Bishops should be over individual cities...) Then there is "Orieintal Orthodox" which broke off over a misunderstinding. This is related: www.monachos.net/patristics/christology/severus_chalcedon.shtml, but the Coptic, Etheopian and Arminian, etc. are "Oriental Orth." Now days they are discovering that they have the same faith.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 12:11 PM (GMT -6) | | What does all baptism do. Has to be the same answer, at some level.
(Busy renovating three rooms for my wife. Back another time -- with the notes I wrote.) | | Back to Top | | |
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Neo Matrix
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| Posted 7/17/2004 12:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Quote PotOnWheel
And there is NO reason to limit our reading of the scriputres to Paul. To do so is beyond silliness, and detracts from the honor we owe to God's revelation in scripture (Rev. 22:19).1 Peter 3:18-
Peter and the other 11 apostles preached a different gospel than Paul did
Glatians 1:6I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Then Paul went on in Galatians 1:18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see £Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Acts 15: 1And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question
6Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe But even after this Galtians 2:7But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. The 12 went to the Jewish Bleivers and Paul went to the Gentiles Preaching anothter Gospel than those of the 12.
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PotOnWheel quote
And here: Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
Paul is ignorant of the sillyness that "Acts-Niners" woould INVENT in the 1800s or 1900s. Paul is talking about the WHOLE of the sacrament -- inside and out.
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How were we baptized into Christ and put on Christ according to Paul?
1 Cor.2:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink £into one Spirit.
if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 1:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix
Quote PotOnWheel
And there is NO reason to limit our reading of the scriputres to Paul. To do so is beyond silliness, and detracts from the honor we owe to God's revelation in scripture (Rev. 22:19).1 Peter 3:18-
Peter and the other 11 apostles preached a different gospel than Paul did
Peter and Paul, and all the rest up till now ALL preach Christ crucified, risen, ascended, and the Church inaugurated by the sending of the Holy Spirit. That's the ONE Gospel that IS the Gospel.
If anyone tries to preach any "other" gospel, "Anathema!" | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 2:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix
How were we baptized into Christ and put on Christ according to Paul?
Answer:
quote:
Colosians 2:9-15
...after Christ: 9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, 10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power: 11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, [I say], did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; 14 having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross; 15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
And:
quote:
Romans 6:4
4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
and PETER says the same thing:
quote:
1 Peter 3:18-
18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: 21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, [even] baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 22 who is one the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
THEY PREACH THE SAME, ONE GOSPEL!
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Sahid
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| Posted 7/17/2004 3:01 PM (GMT -6) | | "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." Gal. 5:6
The debate going on in Galatians was that some said that the gentile Galatian believers must be circumcised. That is the different gospel. No one was saying that they must remain uncircumcised. Paul encouraged this to steer them clear of confusion, not in order to assign them a diffent gospel than the one preached to the Jews.
"Corresponding to that [the story of Noah], baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1Pet. 3:21
"Everyone who has his hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." 1John 3:3
"What prevents me from being baptized?" And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Act 8:36-37
I'm aware that there are textual issues with verse 37, but even without it, the individual's belief precedes the baptism. Philip doesn't say, "Let's baptize you, then later answer your questions."
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 4:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
In the Bible all I find are examples of people choosing, then being baptized.
We find whole households being baptized. There is choice. And their is the choice of the Church/Incarnate-Body of Christ. There is not necessarily the volitional concept of faith that Western civilization has!!!! And the missionaries in third-world countries have had to come to grips with that. WE have an idea that "decisions" are cerebral, deliberative, etc. Faith in other cultures is more like that of those in scripture -- the reality is embraced plainly and naturally. They eyes are on the goal and not on one's self.
As for little ones, they already know God (before birth) and have so little to potentially get in the way -- far less than the repentant sinner. Wait till you have kids, Zach. They know God and rely on him so strongly, that the scripture "as a child" becomes revealed to you.
I can't develop it here, but the Evangelical idea of a church (with its divisionism into "universal" and "local") is so confused. But to understand baptism well, one has to have a fuller developed understanding of the Church. Otherwise anything one says about baptism just gets delivered to the wrong address--so to speak. Athanasias wrote a lot about the Incarnation at this point is the Church, as IT is Christ's Body, and it is the Church that is the redemption of the world.....IT is where people are being actually saved, and where the ultimate design of humanity as the temple of God is being accomplished. And it is the Church that is sent into the world to do Christ's work, to suffer for him for the sake of the world, etc. Baptism is into Christ/into the Church.
That needs attention; but my notes are in another room. Sorry.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hopko says this:
quote:
The universal meaning of baptism is that of "starting anew," of dying to an old, way of life and being born again into a new way of life. Thus, baptism was always connected with repentance which means a moral conversion, a "change of mind," a change in living from something old and bad to something new and good.
www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Baptism.html
The part about repentance is extreemly important: "dying to an old, way of life..." But for a fourty-year-old this is not just an individual thing. He need help, and his very effort will have to have the nature of being a corporate effort (Ask "AA!") Same for the litte ones; their efforts will be corporate to. Their "repentance" (for which they have no need yet "individually.") will be a leaving of the world to devote to Christ, to worship Christ and embrace individual repentance when the time comes. That's repentance.
The other part of what Hopko says, the first part, is that: "being born again into a new way of life." ALL our concerns about the comparision between he who is fourty and he who is four days old--or whatever--rests only with the "repentance" part. Am I right? But the "being (progressive tense!) born again into a new way of life" part is vital too. Right?!! It is THAT that, amoung those things that pertain to baptism--IMHO-- that help us to understand the nature of the Church a bit more. When we as a congregation in the Christian Reformed Church vow to help raise the newly baptized, as my son was, we do so not just as individuals but as a body and on behalf of those all around the world who might be at one point or another part of the local congregation or workplace as that son or daughter newly baptized is. All scales, from one to many to truly universal (both living and the dead in Christ) promise to pray, and to remember that child of God!!!!
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 4:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Hopko:
quote:
In the Christian Church the practice of baptism takes on a new and particular significance. It no longer remains merely a sign of moral change and spiritual rebirth. It becomes very specifically the act of a person's death and resurrection in and with Jesus. Christian baptism is man's participation in the event of Easter. It is a "new birth by water and the Holy Spirit" into the Kingdom of God (Jn 3:5).
God calls ALL to be part of his kingdom. Of every age. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 4:31 PM (GMT -6) | | More:
quote:
Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the "garments of salvation" symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the "new humanity" of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15). Thus, the words of the Apostle Paul are chanted as the newly-baptized is led in procession around the baptismal font three times as the symbol of his procession to the Kingdom of God and his entrance into eternal life: "For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia" (Gal 3:27).
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Sahid
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| Posted 7/17/2004 4:53 PM (GMT -6) | | I would agree that the Church is the body of Christ or the incarnation of Christ. I would even agree that little children have less to get in the way than sinners. But it does not follow that little children are part of the Church. When households were baptized, there may have been infants baptized and maybe not. If choice is not volitional, then I must not know what volition is. Back in the day families were closer and lots of cultures to day have very close families, but when I think it's generally best to allow people to think for themselves. As a culture matures, its individuals mature. Jer. 31: 27-34 describes the new covenant, and it's not based on what your father does. I can see the outward baptism of a household including infants as being symbolic of the head of the household's spiritual baptism. All that he is control of is turned over to Christ. But that type of baptism in the modern cultures of today will be confused with the spiritual baptism of the individuals, and I don't think that baptism takes place without the choice of the individual. In today's world we recognize women, children, and servants as being people deserving of as much respect as a property owning man.
If your baptizing of little children is a pledge to raise them in the love of Christ, that's totally cool. I just think it should be clear to all that this is not the same kind of baptism with which Philip baptized the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian was baptized into Christ Himself. It was not just a pledge to be a good Christian to the man, nor was it a promise to help him repent. It was the Ethiopian's response to Christ's "inner" baptism, not the body of Christ's response to the Ethiopian.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 5:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
When households were baptized, there may have been infants baptized and maybe not.
So, WHY, in your opinion, did no one think of that until the 1600s. Prior to that it was accepted that they were, and did.
Can YOU be SURE that infants are not in the kingdom of God. I'm sure that they are. On what basis do you say something so "outlandish." Christ's words speak otherwise!
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | One of the favorite images of the Reformation.
The children had nothing to repent of...
Christ Blessing the Children, mid-1540s
Lucas Cranach the Elder (German, 1472–1553)
Oil on wood; 6 1/2 x 8 3/4 in. (16.5 x 22.2 cm)
The Jack and Belle Linsky Collection, 1982 (1982.60.36)
The other favorite was this one:
Rembrandt.
Christ and the Woman Taken in Adultery.
1644. Oil on panel. National Gallery, London, UK
With her was evident that it was SOLELY by grace!
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
The thief on the cross was no baptized in water, and it didn't keep him from being baptized into Christ. Getting wet does nothing to do with whether you are baptized into Christ on not. We cannot outwardly confess Christ in truth unless we have accepted Christ. Likewise, we cannot in truth be baptized with water unless we are baptized with the Spirit.
I think this is probably all true -- but it is nothing new. The Church knows that it is not water that baptizes, yet it is with water that the Church does baptize when it baptized. Christ said to do it. WE DON'T ARGUE! Lack of time, water, etc. for the theif is no obstacle to God. The thief, in fact, did get baptized into Christ's death, and had the priveledge of seeing it! | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/17/2004 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid: "But it does not follow that little children are part of the Church.
PoW: Christ answered that.
Sahid: ...when I think it's generally best to allow people to think for themselves.
PoW: But what right to we have to "foist" cultural ideas from the Enlightenment era on our new-born sons and daughters who have no culture whatsoever?
Sahid: I don't think that baptism takes place without the choice of the individual.
PoW: Or, the church could influence the world instead of being "pressed into the mold" (J.B. Philips) of the world!!! (Who's converting whom?)
Let the Church be that City Shining on a hill that Augustine wrote of. (YES, I LOVE AUGUSTINE!!!!!!  )
Sahid: If your baptizing of little children is a pledge to raise them in the love of Christ, that's totally cool.
Has to include that. But it is the Spirit baptizing them into Christ. Its not all our doing; is it?
Sahid: this is not the same kind of baptism with which Philip baptized the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian was baptized into Christ Himself.
PoW: The small-one is baptized into Christ too.
Sahid: It was the Ethiopian's response to Christ's "inner" baptism, not the body of Christ's response to the Ethiopian.
PoW: Nothing prevents the littel on either. They have committed no sin. They do NOT inherit guilt -- of that Augustine is completely wrong!!!. Christ bids come. We DARE NOT refuse our master's request.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/18/2004 3:28 PM (GMT -6) | | It is that baptism is entering into participation in the death and resurrection of Christ, by our desire and his grace, that interests me.
But THIS is a bit interesting:
quote:
. . .The assertion of the Baptists that the original practice of the Christian Church consisted in the baptism only of adults that had consciously accepted the faith is an argument that holds little weight, not having confirmation in Church history. If the practice of bap-tizing children were an innovation, how then did it spread everywhere and become confirmed in both the Christian East and West, without having evoked any opposition on the part of Christians? After all, the believers of the first centuries were incomparably more zealous and strict as regards both religious questions and Church practice than present-day members of the Church. If the baptism of infants were a new matter, it could have been confirmed only after great disputes, as the result of struggle and, perhaps, even divisions. However, the history of the Church does not inform us of anything concerning disputes among Christians regarding the baptism of infants. The first objections to the baptism of infants appeared in Germany in the sixteenth century on the part of the Anabaptists. What then happened during all these fifteen centuries after the Nativity of Christ? Can one really think seriously that the whole Ecumenical Church tore itself away from Jesus Christ because of the baptism of children?
www.stjohndc.org/homilies/9703a.htm
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/18/2004 3:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Lets look at Peter's contribution as a standard though: (1 Peter 3:18) "Christ also suffered for sins once. . . that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. . . which also after a true likeness doth now save you, [even] baptism" and "the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 22 who is one the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
Baptism: "through Christ death and resurection"
In fact THAT IS what baptism is: being made partakers of Christ's death and resurrection. And while the initiation into baptism is our own personal faith in response to God's offer, the faith that is necessary for baptism is CHRIST'S own faith, his desire to die to save us.
And THAT is what the Galatians 3:27 verse is talking about -- not merely that we are then part of the body. (Your comment left everything untouched.) What it means to put on Christ is that we recieve His life as our life and this His faith, His love and His desire as the very "content" of ouf life" (Schmemann).
Baptism as form (water and submersion three times) is an epiphany of the essence of what we are talking about.
But unless our lives are "hidden with God" (Col 3:3), and unless we desire to "lay down our lives" (Matt. 20:22), and unless we desire to be with Christ (1 John 2:16) where he is (in fellowship with the Father--not a literal place)... For me to live is Christ (Phil 1:21).
THAT IS INTERESTING.
Rather than talk about the matter of paedobaptism; since that only rests on the matter of baptism being participation in Christ's death and resurrection (and not being a "visible sign of an invisible grace), I'd rather explore what it means to join Chirst by our desire and his grace. Our "individual act" (which is by grace too) is one kind of faith, and His faith is another kind. The matter of paedobaptism raises the issue of what role our individual faith has, but the answer must include the fact that without Christ's faith baptism, and even a "decision" would be mere ethics.
I think investegating Christ's WILLING death is where to begin.
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