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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/13/2004 5:47 AM (GMT -6)

"As many of you

as have been baptized into Chirst

have put on Christ

(Galatians 3:27)

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/13/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6)

Questions:

1. Is baptism external?

2. Is baptism internal?

3. Is baptism both external and internal?

4. Are external and internal divisible?

5. Is baptism "an external evidence of an invisible grace?"

6. If so, what is that "grace?"

7. Who's faith is crucial for baptism to "work."

(And, not that this should be last...)

8. What's baptism got to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/13/2004 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

What are YOUR favorite scripture verses on Baptism?

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/13/2004 6:02 AM (GMT -6)

Various pictures.
www.virginia.edu/vfh/images/baptism.gif
www.csdl.tamu.edu/~rajiv/images/baptism.jpg
www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/baptism.gif

Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431

Posted 7/13/2004 6:11 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

What are YOUR favorite scripture verses on Baptism?

John 3:23
"John also was sprinkling infants in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and infants were being brought and were being baptized--"

John had to use a deep part of the Jordan river because he had many infants to sprinkle. Big Smile

I may have modified the verse to please my Lutheran ancestors....

Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 7/14/2004 1:55 PM (GMT -6)

I'm a baptist so this might just be the party line:

1. External baptism (physically getting wet) symbolizes and makes public, initiation into a group. Back in the day it was a common initiation ritual. Everyone knew what it meant to be baptized; initiation into a religion or cult. Christian baptism also symbolizes the death and resurrection of Christ and our participation in that process. It also reminds us of internal baptism.

2. Internal baptism is being placed in or identified with Christ. It's real, and it's powerful.

3. Si.

4. They are different like a confession is different from a crime.

5. Si.

6. The process of God getting us off the hook and fighting our fight for us.

7. Both God and man. Jesus' faith makes the whole thing possible and makes it work. Our requisit faith is nothing in comparision.

8. External baptism pictures and reminds us, (just to poke you and make you laugh, not hurt) in our imaginations, of Jesus' death and resurrection. Internal baptism makes the death and resurrection effective in us. It really causes us (our heart or soul or whatever the real us is) to die and be reborn.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/14/2004 2:57 PM (GMT -6)

Sahid, your 7 & 8 are what I want to examine. That's what I've been reading. And the author (A.S.) says that clears up the division between external and internal (form and content) too. And, therefore, the justification of infant baptism is that it is NOT the faith of the child, but of Christ -- Christ's faith as you said, and that the invitation is either the individual who gets baptized because he knows that within he is asking to die and be reborn, or the Church community which itself IS the living existance (not to be confused with bureaucracies and orgnaizations...) of that resurrected life in Christ.

You are WAY ahead of me, Sahid.

Neo Matrix
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15

Posted 7/14/2004 4:36 PM (GMT -6)

Ephesians 4:4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in £you all. One Baptism not 2 in the Body of Christ which Paul preached to. However this baptism is not water but the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 12:12For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink £into one Spirit.

Paul who was the apostle to the Gentiles was not sent to baptize 1 Cor. 1:17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. If Paul was the only Apostle who went to the Gentiles and preached the gospel of the Grace of God was not sent to baptized then how was the Gentiles to be baptized? Holy Spirit baptizes us. Not water in the dispensation of the grace Eph 3

if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/14/2004 5:15 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix

Paul who was the apostle to the Gentiles was not sent to baptize 1 Cor. 1:17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. If Paul was the only Apostle who went to the Gentiles and preached the gospel of the Grace of God was not sent to baptized then how was the Gentiles to be baptized? Holy Spirit baptizes us. Not water in the dispensation of the grace Eph 3

I'm familiar with that bit of eisogesis (reading a framework into the text, and--surprise--finding it again almost in the text). But my thought on the passage you mentioned is that the POINT of the passage superceeds the mere choice of a word or two. Context, context, context! Paul obviously was glad that he had only, maybe, been the actual one to have baptized a few. He couldn't remember--which means that it would not have been a problem if he had...EXCEPT. But the POINT of the section is that he regretted seeing the divisions and resulting infighting that staked out its home-turn along lines of who had been baptized by whom. So, a whole lot of gentiles HAD been baptized! the recent tradition you are part of ("Acts-Nine" takes a couple of words and ignores the whole series of sentences.) Read in paragraphs, please!

But thanks for posting!

PoW

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/14/2004 5:24 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in £you all. One Baptism not 2 in the Body of Christ which Paul preached to. However this baptism is not water but the Holy Spirit

I put the actual verse into italics. That particular passage does not explain the comment about baptism in the Holy Spirit. So, that passage is not sufficient to make a comment about either/or about Water "verses" Spirit. In fact, it supports BOTH WATER AND SPIRIT.

quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink £into one Spirit.

This is a great verse. It goes along nicely with what Sahid had:

2. Internal baptism is being placed in or identified with Christ. It's real, and it's powerful.

1. External baptism (physically getting wet) symbolizes and makes public, initiation into a group.

Here, though, it is BOTH water and spirit: both external and internal. That is because it is "identification" with not a human group but the Body that is comprised by the Spirit's work as the corpus of Christ -- the Church.

Thanks for the verses, Neo Matrix.

PoW

Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013

Posted 7/14/2004 7:34 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Sahid, your 7 & 8 are what I want to examine. That's what I've been reading. And the author (A.S.) says that clears up the division between external and internal (form and content) too. And, therefore, the justification of infant baptism is that it is NOT the faith of the child, but of Christ -- Christ's faith as you said, and that the invitation is either the individual who gets baptized because he knows that within he is asking to die and be reborn, or the Church community which itself IS the living existance (not to be confused with bureaucracies and orgnaizations...) of that resurrected life in Christ.

I know I didn't emphasize this, but I think it's best to reserve baptism for believers, not infants. While God is definitely the important one, internal baptism does require the faith of the believer. We should emphasize God's action, because His role is so much greater than ours, but we do have to respond to Him. While I think baptizing an infant is ok as a child dedication kind of thing, I think it does more harm than good by confusing what believer's baptism is. Basically, God does all the stuff, but He waits until we let Him. I know it's all controversial, but that's what I think. Sorry it wasn't clear before.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/15/2004 2:42 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Sahid

quote:
Sahid, your 7 & 8 are what I want to examine. That's what I've been reading. And the author (A.S.) says that clears up the division between external and internal (form and content) too. And, therefore, the justification of infant baptism is that it is NOT the faith of the child, but of Christ -- Christ's faith as you said, and that the invitation is either the individual who gets baptized because he knows that within he is asking to die and be reborn, or the Church community which itself IS the living existance (not to be confused with bureaucracies and orgnaizations...) of that resurrected life in Christ.
I know I didn't emphasize this, but I think it's best to reserve baptism for believers, not infants. While God is definitely the important one, internal baptism does require the faith of the believer. We should emphasize God's action, because His role is so much greater than ours, but we do have to respond to Him. While I think baptizing an infant is ok as a child dedication kind of thing, I think it does more harm than good by confusing what believer's baptism is. Basically, God does all the stuff, but He waits until we let Him. I know it's all controversial, but that's what I think. Sorry it wasn't clear before.

I grew up baptist, and had both my kids baptizes as "infants."

Sahid, not to make this a sticking point -- SO I WON'T! -- But I see your answer to number-7; and now you maybe want to consider whether what you feel most comfortable with calls you to back away from something that you deeply believe. Interesting situation; but one that boards are safe to entertain!

Sahid: Q7. Who's faith is crucial for baptism to "work."
Sahid: A7. Both God and man. Jesus' faith makes the whole thing possible and makes it work. Our requisit faith is nothing in comparision.

"Jesus faith." A.S. points out that the question about infant baptism is a good on. But the SAME question about whether the infant has enough faith should also be asked about the case of all adults too. None of them do either--have "enough" faith. The ONLY one who has enough faith is Christ. And we can only come to him if we desire to have his faith. (A.S. again.) By the Spirit to have the mind of Christ, to have Christ dwell richly in us.

So, the Church bids the infant to come and be baptized BECAUSE the Church has faith, the faith that is Christ's.

As Protestant Evangelicals (We are not the only "evangelicals.") we tend to disregard the Church as an organism, at least in our 'formal' thinking. In life we don't -- when we are in need our good instincts take over and we run to ask prayer, in faith that the Church IS Christ. (With the presence of the Holy Spirit.) Out of that atomism we don't formally recognize the faith of the Church as being anything. We think of it as being a pole, a collection of opinions. But faith is the living existance of God's sacrificial love. It is alive. And as alive it can be shared. Faith isn't "about" Christ. Faith is "in" Christ. Faith is participation in HIS sacrificial love. In his desire, his will. Faith is the substance of taking up one's cross. We just wouldn't bother to meet together if faith wasn't shareable. Grace is a verb that we too often confuse with being a noun. Grace is participation--being connected to the vine. Grace is having the water from the living stream flow through our lake. (En-noun-ed 'grace' is stagnant -- if you follow the metaphor.)

The Church does not baptise ANY that it can not bring up in the image of Christ, and make part of Christ's body. But all those that it can it must baptize.

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/15/2004 2:52 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Sahid

I know I didn't emphasize this, but I think it's best to reserve baptism for believers, not infants. While God is definitely the important one, internal baptism does require the faith of the believer. We should emphasize God's action, because His role is so much greater than ours, but we do have to respond to Him. While I think baptizing an infant is ok as a child dedication kind of thing, I think it does more harm than good by confusing what believer's baptism is. Basically, God does all the stuff, but He waits until we let Him. I know it's all controversial, but that's what I think. Sorry it wasn't clear before.

Sahid: "...internal baptism does require the faith of the believer."

PoW: But as I just posted, we should not consider faith to be such a solitary thing. It is "a conviction of things not seen" and "the substance of things hoped for." Faith is not empty-handedness! (And its not an intellectual construct.) Baptism requires the faith of the believer(s). Everything requires the faith of the believer(s). But the notion that this is an "individual" thing, and that we as persons are by definition fragmented into "separated" individuals needs examination. "Persons" by definition are "in communion." That is why all the various verses in the various epistles all refer to the "unity of the body" and not the "collection of individual initiates!"

I'm more convinced every day that baptizing ALL those who are in the Christian community is essential. And that communion should begin right then along with baptism.

Thanks for the continuing discussion!

You also said: "I think it does more harm than good by confusing what believer's baptism is."

I think we need to examine, really, what it is, what happens, and why it is necessary.

PoW

Neo Matrix
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15

Posted 7/15/2004 2:09 PM (GMT -6)

Pot quote

I'm familiar with that bit of eisogesis (reading a framework into the text, and--surprise--finding it again almost in the text). But my thought on the passage you mentioned is that the POINT of the passage superceeds the mere choice of a word or two. Context, context, context

Even with the context Paul never in all his Epistles taught water baptism anywhere only Holy Spirit baptism. Also Water Baptism, and Holy Spirit Baptism is 2 different baptism no matter how you look t it and Eph 4:5 God Bless and Keep up the good work

Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 7/15/2004 3:46 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Sahid: Q7. Who's faith is crucial for baptism to "work."
Sahid: A7. Both God and man. Jesus' faith makes the whole thing possible and makes it work. Our requisit faith is nothing in comparision.

I still hold to my answer, all of it, not just the part you highlighted. All the believer does is respond in faith, but that's not nothing. It's very significant. To oversimplify, I think external baptism is the confession of real internal baptism. But if that baptism hasn't taken place, why confess it? For me, to justify external baptism there needs to be internal baptism. So I would first need to be convinced that some people don't have to be born again. I admit that there are verses that give that impression, but I still believe that you can't ride on your parents faith.

quote:
"Jesus faith." A.S. points out that the question about infant baptism is a good on. But the SAME question about whether the infant has enough faith should also be asked about the case of all adults too. None of them do either--have "enough" faith. The ONLY one who has enough faith is Christ. And we can only come to him if we desire to have his faith.

In one sense I agree. Christ does all the work. But in another, I disagree. Adults do have enough faith to respond, and that is all we need to do to be baptized internally.

quote:
So, the Church bids the infant to come and be baptized BECAUSE the Church has faith, the faith that is Christ's.

Maybe it's just the wording, but I can't agree. How does the Church bid an infant to be baptized. If you smile nicely and raise your voice an octave, you can get a baby to crawl to you, but I don't think it's the same thing. There is no bidding going on in infant baptism. The parents force it on the child. It's not against the child's will; the child wouldn't understand the choice even if he knew there was a choice; there is no will to violate.

quote:
As Protestant Evangelicals (We are not the only "evangelicals.") we tend to disregard the Church as an organism, at least in our 'formal' thinking. In life we don't -- when we are in need our good instincts take over and we run to ask prayer, in faith that the Church IS Christ. (With the presence of the Holy Spirit.) Out of that atomism we don't formally recognize the faith of the Church as being anything. We think of it as being a pole, a collection of opinions. But faith is the living existance of God's sacrificial love. It is alive. And as alive it can be shared. Faith isn't "about" Christ. Faith is "in" Christ. Faith is participation in HIS sacrificial love. In his desire, his will. Faith is the substance of taking up one's cross. We just wouldn't bother to meet together if faith wasn't shareable.

I think I agree with everything you say here, but just because the Church is alive and an organism doesn't mean you can be physically born into it. We are spiritually born, born again, into it. Being Abraham's physical descendant doesn't make you his spiritual seed. In fact, not all Israel is Israel. There are those who are God's children, His holy nation, by physical birth, and others who are by spiritual birth. The two overlap, but the distinction is very important. I don't think the external baptism of an infant makes any change in the internal spiritual baptism or church. But then, you didn't say that. I get carried away.

quote:
Grace is a verb that we too often confuse with being a noun. Grace is participation--being connected to the vine. Grace is having the water from the living stream flow through our lake. (En-noun-ed 'grace' is stagnant -- if you follow the metaphor.)

Yes, but sin is the dam that we have built which God does not tear down against our will. Although He can walk right through doors, He stands and knocks. He pleads, but He doesn't force anyone to be baptized.

quote:
The Church does not baptise ANY that it can not bring up in the image of Christ, and make part of Christ's body. But all those that it can it must baptize.

No. As you said, the Church is the body of Christ. It is to pursue the world with love, not handcuffs. We can force external baptism, but we can't force the internal.

quote:
Sahid: "...internal baptism does require the faith of the believer."

PoW: But as I just posted, we should not consider faith to be such a solitary thing. It is "a conviction of things not seen" and "the substance of things hoped for." Faith is not empty-handedness! (And its not an intellectual construct.)

What do you mean? I'm probably missing your point, but I think our small faith is joined with God's big faith. It's not solitary. And it is the substance of things hoped for. Resurrection, the bridal feast, and new heaven and new earth. I don't know what you mean by empty-handedness or intellectual construct. I think faith is both the belief and the trust, the choice and the action. To put it beter it is the belief that leads to trust and the choice that leads to action.

quote:
Baptism requires the faith of the believer(s). Everything requires the faith of the believer(s).

But external testifies to internal, and the internal requires the faith to respond from the baptised.

quote:
But the notion that this is an "individual" thing, and that we as persons are by definition fragmented into "separated" individuals needs examination. "Persons" by definition are "in communion." That is why all the various verses in the various epistles all refer to the "unity of the body" and not the "collection of individual initiates!"

We exist both as individuals and as a community. We are loved in both senses. I would say we are unity and collection.

quote:
I'm more convinced every day that baptizing ALL those who are in the Christian community is essential. And that communion should begin right then along with baptism.

I would define Christian community as community identified in Christ, which is the same thing as saying community baptized into Christ. With this definition I agree that "baptizing ALL those who are in the Christian community is" important, but not essential. While I do not include nonbelievers in this community, I still love them as if they were Christ (or at least I should).

I guess it boils down to my belief that "you must be born again" and that external baptism should not be practiced if it does not testify to this new birth of the baptized.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 4:08 AM (GMT -6)

My internet is a 'beast' right now. Sorry!

Here are verses that I'm considering with respect to baptism. Some say things that may be exactly about baptism. Others may not deal directly at all; but deal with things that baptism is "about." Here's the whole list.

I'll be back when I can.

PoW

============================

Romans 6:5
Colosians 3:3
Romans 6:9
John 10:17-18
1 Corinthians 15:54-55
John 1:2
1 Corinthians 15:56
Romans 5:12
Romans 5:14
1 Corinthians 15:54 (again)
1 John 2:16
Colosians 3:3 (again)
Matthew 20:22
Ephesians 3:17-18
Galatians 3:27
Psalm 32

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 4:18 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix

Paul never in all his Epistles taught water baptism anywhere...

in him ye are made full

in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

make alive together with him

he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross

triumphing over them in it

And baptism is not 'just' about water -- hense my opening questions. So the WHOLE portion I've quoted here is all important and ALL goes together.

buried therefore with him through baptism unto death

so we also might walk in newness of life

Baptism is not an visible symbol of an invisible grace, it is participation in the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 4:21 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix

Paul never in all his Epistles taught water baptism

And here:

baptized into Christ did put on Christ

Paul is ignorant of the sillyness that "Acts-Niners" woould INVENT in the 1800s or 1900s. Paul is talking about the WHOLE of the sacrament -- inside and out.

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 4:28 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Neo Matrix

Paul never in all his Epistles taught water baptism

And there is NO reason to limit our reading of the scriputres to Paul. To do so is beyond silliness, and detracts from the honor we owe to God's revelation in scripture (Rev. 22:19).

that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Once again, the WHOLE of this must be taken to understand it, as we have in our various traditions divided the inner from the outer and tried to give each a life and validity of its own without the other. Peter and Paul are good reading as a corrective!

Paul and Peter are talking about the SAME thing.

PoW

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 4:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Sahid

quote:
Sahid: Q7. Who's faith is crucial for baptism to "work."
Sahid: A7. Both God and man. Jesus' faith makes the whole thing possible and makes it work. Our requisit faith is nothing in comparision.
I still hold to my answer, all of it, not just the part you highlighted. All the believer does is respond in faith, but that's not nothing.

I hold to all of it too. And I'm not implying otherwise. But the nature of the faith that comes to Christ and the nature of the faith that we receive from Christ are different, in ALL cases. And this makes baptism of a 89-year-old the same as that of a 8-lb. 9-oz. girl.

The Middle ages introduced the false notion of "personal faith" as being a gnostic division where only a deliberative act of the will was considered "faith." That came into Europe through the Arabs when the came to Cordova, Spain. And it entered the largely academically ingnorant Europe along with the "rediscovery" of Aristotle's and other's writings that the Arabs brought with them. (Larry Christenson has a pamphlet about this called "What about Infant Baptism?": "Belief was seen in rationalistic and volitional terms, as an act of the mind and the will.") That view finally surfaced in the 16th century as a individualistic, secular philosophy with the intent of assuring man's individuality. That view did NOT arise out of searching the scriputures. (Which is a historical comment, and not a comment on which someone could impose on scripture an expectation different form its writers or original and enduring readers.) That is pagan thinking, and not Christian.

Sorry.

- PoW

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 6:22 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Sahid

quote:
Sahid: Q7. Who's faith is crucial for baptism to "work."
Sahid: A7. Both God and man. Jesus' faith makes the whole thing possible and makes it work. Our requisit faith is nothing in comparision.

I still hold to my answer, all of it, not just the part you highlighted. All the believer does is respond in faith, but that's not nothing. It's very significant.

SAHID, YOUR WHOLE RESPONSE WAS WONDERFUL, AND A GREAT ASSET, I THINK, TO WHAT I HOPE THIS THREAD WILL EXPLORE. I JUST RESPONDED TO THE FIRST PART BECAUSE THAT WAS ALL I HAD TIME TO READ: I PRINTED THE REST OFF. I THINK THAT US COMING AT THE ISSUE OF INFANT BAPTISM FROM DIFFERENT SIDES PROVIDES AN IMPETUS FOR US TO EXAMINE THE CORE OF WHAT BAPTISM IS, AND EXPLORE THE VARIOUS NEAR-MISSES THAT HAVE BEEN PROMULGATED. I'M ENJOYING THIS.

- PoW

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 8:24 AM (GMT -6)

FROM A WONDERFUL AND VERY USEFUL WEBSITE AT CALVIN COLLEGE.

www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/TOC.htm

Five Catechetical Lectures to the Newly Baptized (by Cyril of Jesusalem):

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-25.htm#P2710_771752

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-26.htm#P2762_789304

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-27.htm#P2800_800487

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-28.htm#P2845_812631

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-29.htm#P2888_823522

We might also be interested in this "Procatechesis" that was given before the preparatory catechisms began. The contents of what had been accomplished before the catechism is interesting. www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-05.htm#P117_1277

Happy reading (to me too!) Smile

PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 8:35 AM (GMT -6)

This Catechetical Lecture of Cyril of Jesusalem (www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-07/Npnf2-07-29.htm#P2888_823522) has something that I'd like to post for consideration:

quote:
4. After these things, ye were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism, as Christ was carried from the Cross to the Sepulchre which is before our eyes And each of you was asked, whether he believed in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and ye made that saving confession, and descended three times into the water, and ascended again; here also hinting by a symbol at the three days burial of Christ. For as our Saviour passed three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, so you also in your first ascent out of the water, represented the first day of Christ in the earth, and by your descent, the night; for as he who is in the night, no longer sees, but he who is in the day, remains in the light, so in the descent, as in the night, ye saw nothing, but in ascending again ye were as in the day. And at the self-same moment ye were both dying and being born; and that Water of salvation was at once your grave and your mother. And what Solomon spoke of others will suit you also; for he said, in that case, There is a time to bear and a time to die ; but to you, in the reverse order, there was a time to die and a time to be born; and one and the same time effected both of these, and your birth went hand in hand with your death.

5. O strange and inconceivable thing! we did not really die, we were not really buried, we were not really crucified and raised again; but our imitation was in a figure, and our salvation in reality. Christ was actually crucified, and actually buried, and truly rose again; and all these things He has freely bestowed upon us, that we, sharing His sufferings by imitation, might gain salvation in reality. O surpassing loving-kindness! Christ received nails in His undefiled hands and feet, and suffered anguish; while on me without pain or toil by the fellowship of His suffering He freely bestows salvation.

6. Let no one then suppose that Baptism is merely the grace of remission of sins, or further, that of adoption; as John's was a baptism conferring only remission of sins: whereas we know full well, that as it purges our sins, and ministers to us the gift of the Holy Ghost, so also it is the counterpart of the sufferings of Christ. For this cause Paul just now cried aloud and said, Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus, were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into His death. These words he spoke to some who were disposed to think that Baptism ministers to us the remission of sins, and adoption, but has not further the fellowship also, by representation, of Christ's true sufferings.

7. In order therefore that we might learn, that whatsoever things Christ endured, For Us and for Our Salvation He suffered them in reality and not in appearance, and that we also are made partakers of His sufferings, Paul cried with all exactness of truth, For if we have been planted together with the likeness of His death, we shall be also with the likeness of His resurrection. Well has he said, planted together. For since the true Vine was planted in this place, we also by partaking in the Baptism of death have been planted together with Him. And fix thy mind with much attention on the words of the Apostle. He said not, "For if we have been planted together with His death," but, with the likeness of His death. For in Christ's case there was death in reality, for His soul was really separated from His body, and real burial, for His holy body was wrapt in pure linen; and everything happened really to Him; but in your ease there was only a likeness of death and sufferings, whereas of salvation there was not a likeness but a reality.

Amen!

Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 7/16/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6)

I'm enjoying it too. I haven't read the articles you posted yet. Low on will power right now. One thing I've found very useful to resolving differences (this is pretty obvious but if I make myself consciously think about it, it helps) is to figure out where opinions diverge or which underlying assumptions are different. So, I an effort to figure some of that out...

By saying that baptism (internal, I assume) is not a matter of my choosing are you saying that my salvation did not depend on my choosing either? It seems to me the two go hand-in-hand. I would go so far as to say salvation is baptism in Christ. I believe salvation is available to all, because Christ's work is that powerful, but I also believe salvation is contingent upon my accepting it, because Christ is that loving. What are your thoughts?

I assumed that your question #5 was talking about external/water baptism. If it's talking about internal/Spirit/real baptism, then I must change my answer and say baptism is not a symbol, but the actual grace, the actual participation and identification.

I guess it's just my prejudice, but I see individuals as more basic (not the right word) than communities. I think group action and group will are usually just semantic shortcuts but not actual realities. If a group eats a ton of turkey on Thanksgiving, that's just a shortcut for saying the sum of each individual's turkey consumption within the group is a ton. It's a mouthful (bad joke). So instead we say the group ate a ton of turkey. But in reality the group ate nothing. Only the individuals within the group ate anything. I think there may be times when a group, "becomes" an actual entity. I think acts of sincere love with sincere appreciation and returned love are the best example of this. However, I don't think the individual ceases to exist as a unique entity. This is how I typically think of the Church. We are really one and really many. This example may not sit well with you, but maybe it's like the trinity; it is really one and really many.

I know it's a little of the subject, but I think these may be the issues beneath the surface.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/16/2004 12:51 PM (GMT -6)

Tearing up carpeting in the family room. Wife needs more office space for her doctoral program.

Sahid, I'll get to the specifics of your last post later. Just let me put a few LINKS here on the theme of "individual" versus "Person." (I think that the way you expressed it--maybe got it from me?--as individual versus community is not completely helpful.) Dont' feel obligated. But I think these are worthwhile just by themselves. (They are EO, but lots of people have the same critique; and it is just as good a critique of the writers mileu as it is of ours -- they are honest.)

jbburnett.com/resources/yannaras/yannaras_freedom01-pers&ind.pdf

John Zizioulas, Metropolitan of Pergamon, "Communion and Otherness":

jbburnett.com/resources/zizioulas/zizioulas-comm&otherness.pdf

jbburnett.com/resources/yannaras/yannaras_elements7-man.pdf

jbburnett.com/resources/clement-persons-in-comm.pdf

jbburnett.com/resources/lossky/lossky-person.pdf

The other thing to mention is that the chapter in Schmemann's "Of Water and Spirit" that I'm reading and re-reading makes the point that separating form and content (which we've been calling 'inner' and 'outer') is a false dicotomy. Just like my wedding ring IS part of my marriage it is BOTH symbol and reality. This divisionism, that goes so well with Rationalism, is not, I think, a good fit with the a biblical view of anthroplogy.

If you read a bit of Cyril you feel that baptism was not, for those under his care, MERELY a symbol!!!! It was as real as when I walked down the hill to the pavilion to get married!

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