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feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 7/13/2004 10:22 AM (GMT -6)

1) what is required of for salvation?
2) does one need to accept a true view of God for salvation if one is aware of it?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/13/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

1) what is required of for salvation?
2) does one need to accept a true view of God for salvation if one is aware of it?

My humble offering is these two verses:

quote:
Romans 10:9-11 ...because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

To this I bring my generation's emphasis on psychology: it is cognitive dissonance to say one thing and believe another. So "confession...unto salvation" makes sense in that modern frameword. But a lot of emphasis needs also to be placed on the role of the heart: "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness." "Salvation" seems to be an ongoing process -- a running of the race. "Righteousness" seems to be being formed into right relationship/orientation/connection with God. We need the second and the first, both.

The other verse is:

quote:
Romans 10:13 "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Its interesting to take a book of the bible, and do word-searches -- like 'SAVED' and see what it all says.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/13/2004 10:59 AM (GMT -6)

Looking at this:

quote:
1 Corinthians Chapter 15
1 ...the gospel which ...wherein also ye stand, 2by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

I am sincere in my belief that none of the above is replacable. I do believe that some are saved with only an inkling and a primative hope of this -- that they count the cost and "nail it to the cross in repentance" without knowing about the Cross. But all the elements must still be there.

There is only one Gospel, and that is the Person of Jesus Christ -- not ideas about him. His death and resurrection, and our participation in them is what saves. Not ideas. This is bloody Christianity; not gnosticism.

Neo Matrix
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15

Posted 7/14/2004 4:43 PM (GMT -6)

Welcome to the Dispensation of the Grace of God Preached by the apostle Paul through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ who says all you have to do to be saved is

Flame2

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Flame2

if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 7/14/2004 8:09 PM (GMT -6)

If this is too far off the subject, I can take it elsewhere, but I have a halfway related question. What about the unevangelized? In the last two or three years I've confronted a lot of challenges to Christianity and a lot of doubt. Praise God that He's real! I've found that an honest look at the challenges and doubts, (so far) just tears down hidden lies and reveals more of who God really is. But I digress.

The problem of the unevangelized was the first and the biggest of those challenges. It didn't have the biggest emotional impact; it just opened the door to see so many problems with the patchwork faith that I had (and, to an extent, probably still have). I had a little bit of Calvinism, a little bit of Arminianism, a little Galatian freedom, a little Pharisee. Man, why can't I stay on the subject. I guess I just like to talk about myself.

Anyway, Romans opens up telling us that the unevangelized have no excuse. They could see that God existed, that He is eternal, and that He is powerful. So when they sin, God is right in loosing wrath on them. Alright, that makes since. It's logical at least. And it's the Bible. The problem is when we say you need Jesus to be saved. He is the way, the truth, the light, no one sees the Father except by going through Him. So are the unevangelized just stuck? God reveals just enough of Himself to judge them, but not enough to save them? It just doesn't sound like Jesus. That woman who said even the dogs get some scraps, Jesus had mercy on her. So I've toyed with some of my preconceptions. I've taken some theology classes that deal with this issue a little too. (If anyone knows a good book or something...)

Some people say that after death, even if we never heard the gospel, we get one last chance. They say this is what preaching to the prisoners refers to. Sort of like the harrowing of hell. Then there's universalism: everyone's saved like it or not; you don't get a choice. Some think that there is a way that the unevangelized have been presented some grace and, for them, accepting however much they're offered is somehow enough. Or there is what I grew up on. If they don't hear they go to hell; they deserve it, after all.

What's everyone's preference, and why? I'm kinda leaning one way (you can probably guess; it's the one that most pertains to this thread), but it's tough. What is the overall message of the Bible on this subject? If the "you didn't hear; go to hell" view is truth, and that is demonstrated to me then I'll believe it, but it would drastically change how I view God and what "love" is to me.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/15/2004 2:55 AM (GMT -6)

Hebrews 11:6

"And without faith it is impossible

to be well-pleasing [unto him];

for he that cometh to God

must believe that he is,

and [that] he is a rewarder

of them that seek after him."

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/15/2004 2:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

Hebrews 11:6

"And without faith it is impossible

to be well-pleasing [unto him];

for he that cometh to God

must believe that he is,

and [that] he is a rewarder

of them that seek after him."

These colored parts bear some examination.

Sahid
Megistered Rember

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 7/15/2004 8:53 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
"And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing [unto him]; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that seek after him."

I'm gonna move stuff around, sort of diagram the sentence, so if I change the meaning, let me know. Does this mean the same thing?: "He who comes to God must believe that God is and believe that God rewards those who seek Him, therefore it is impossible to be well-pleasing to God without faith." Now unless I'm spinning this (which I may have done), it sounds like the first clause (in my paraphrase) either defines the "faith" of the second clause or defines something of which "faith" is a subset. Basically, "We need faith, because we need to believe God exists as a rewarder of seekers." (I don't want to play fast and loose with the scripture, so stop me I you see me twisting things.) So from this it seems inplied that faith is at least a subset of 'believing that He is and that He rewards those who seek Him'. At most faith is equivalent to "believeing.....seek Him'. It doesn't look like the believing clause is a subset of faith.

So I think I'm safe in saying that I need to believe God exists and believe He's a rewarder in order to have faith. If so, is this a complete encapsulation of saving faith? POW you said earlier,

quote:
I do believe that some are saved with only an inkling and a primative hope of this -- that they count the cost and "nail it to the cross in repentance" without knowing about the Cross. But all the elements must still be there.

So, say Joe is a person who never had any opportunity to hear about anything in the Bible or about God. If Joe has faith that God exists and that God rewards Joe for seeking Him, is that saving faith? Say Joe repents of being bad, because he feels security and love in God. Is just having faith that God restores relationship with us enough, or do we need to have faith in how He restores it?

I'd like to believe that is enough. It sounds nice. But I'm not sure I do. I remember the experience of my salvation. I knew all about the Bible. But when God came and shook me, it wasn't really Jesus and the cross that caught my attention. It was the inner conviction that I had been keeping God at a distance and that He wanted us to be together. Looking back it wasn't primarily about fixing outward sins; it was more about accepting God closely. It wasn't like He was angry at me. He was sad that I was far away and eargerly wanted to get close. It strikes me that my experience was not that different from Joe's. I had the Bible stories and explainations for how God dealt with my sin, but none of those were core to my experience of salvation.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 7/15/2004 9:00 AM (GMT -6)

A healthy respect for God and his power always helps with salvation. If you don't believe God can save you, you trust him to save you.

Bobber
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199

Posted 7/16/2004 5:28 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
1) what is required of for salvation?
2) does one need to accept a true view of God for salvation if one is aware of it?

Romans states clearly that to hear the good news is imperative...that Jesus died for our sins as our substitute and that his precious blood remits our sins....for with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvaton....in other words you hear what Jesus did on the cross for you in that he took your sins and gave you his righteousness...We become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus...not our own righteousness of course but it is his that he gave us....What Gods looking for is for us to agree with that...if we do at that moment we are saved....but then comes the question can someone live any ole way they want and be saved? No. While you're not saved by works it is to be expected that you are now to seek to endeavour to walk in the light as he's in the light...that means to allow our lives to become converted towards him, allowing his power, life and nature to flow through us....if we're notwilling to allow hiim to live his life through us then really we have not really repented of our sins....God looks upon the heart....the person may not be perfect but are they really and truly endeavouring to sincerely serve him or are they just playing a game...Jesus said many would say Lord, Lord, but he'll say He never knew them....but they thought they were Christians all along. Those are my thoughts anyway Blush

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