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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/14/2004 5:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I don't at all dispute that God is the healer, and that HE heals through His ordained means.
Would you believe that if I approach a shaman or a person that will perform some spiritual ceremony over me for physical healing
go to the Dali Lama and touch his robe
Charlie Brown spent every Halloween
Now prove that prayer (communication with Jesus) is equivalent to:
1. communication with animisitic spirits (shamanism)
2. communication with the Dalai Lama incarnation of the Buddha
3. communication with the Great Pumpkin
I claim that it ISN'T the same. I make the claim that the reason that it isn't the same, however, isn't because of a difference in "sincerity" or "calling" but the "means" of praying. I maintain that sincerity is not enough and that there are those who could sincerely call out to God in ways that He has not commanded and not find what they are seeking. The sons of Aaron sought to seek God with strange fire and found His wrath and judgment instead of His mercy. If we are to come to God, I believe that we must approach Him as He commanded us to approach Him, or we risk not finding what we are seeking for in all sincerity.
Thus, if I feel the Holy Spirit is wishing to speak to me through a Ouija board, is this acceptable? Will sincerity and a pure heart ensure that it is God that I find there? What if I ask the "Holy Spirit" if he confesses that Jesus came in the flesh and the ouija answers "yes." Does this mean that it is God and can be believed? I am seeking God and not Buddha or the spirits of the shaman. To go further, what if I pray the Lord's prayer and then ask God to speak to me through my Bible as I randomly open it up and poke down my finger. Can I be certain that this communication is God's guidance for me and that I should blindly apply the verse that I land on to my life, regardless of the context of the greater passage? Why would this be acceptable or not. Would it be any different than believeing that God is seeking to speak to me through tea leaves (which are not specifically forbidden) if I use a cup with scriptures on it and call upon and imagine the Holy Spirit and Jesus dancing in my cup?
Sarcasm aside, I believe that communication with Jesus by means that He has not commanded may be similar to praying to a different god or different Jesus. To whom is the devotion of those Paul is writing directed if it is not directed to the true Christ? They are not praying to Buddha or animistic spirits but claim to be devoted to God.
2 Cor 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/14/2004 6:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I claim that it ISN'T the same. I make the claim that the reason that it isn't the same, however, isn't because of a difference in "sincerity" or "calling" but the "means" of praying.
2 Cor 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Again, it's not the MEANS, it's the object of worship, the recipient of your prayers.
If I sincerely seek the wrong god, of course it's wrong.
If my motives are wrong, it's obviously wrong.
You have not demonstrated how the wrong god is being sought.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/14/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Again, it's not the MEANS, it's the object of worship, the recipient of your prayers.
If I sincerely seek the wrong god, of course it's wrong.
If my motives are wrong, it's obviously wrong.
Sister, I pray that you’re right or all of us could be in for a sad  surprise. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/14/2004 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Again, it's not the MEANS, it's the object of worship, the recipient of your prayers.
If I sincerely seek the wrong god, of course it's wrong.
If my motives are wrong, it's obviously wrong.
Sister, I pray that you’re right or all of us could be in for a sad surprise.
All through scripture, God deals with attitudes, NOT methods.
Cain's attitude, not his actual offering.
Jonah's attitude, not his prophecy.
The Pharisee's attitudes, not their scholarship.
Peter's attitude towards the Gentiles and eating meat sacrificed to idols.
The positive attitude of the good Samaritan versus the bad attitude of the Israelites who passed the victim.
Life is not in the scriptures themselves, but in Who the scriptures point to.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/14/2004 8:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Again, it's not the MEANS, it's the object of worship, the recipient of your prayers.
If I sincerely seek the wrong god, of course it's wrong.
If my motives are wrong, it's obviously wrong.
Sister, I pray that you’re right or all of us could be in for a sad surprise.
All through scripture, God deals with attitudes, NOT methods.
Cain's attitude, not his actual offering.
Jonah's attitude, not his prophecy.
The Pharisee's attitudes, not their scholarship.
Peter's attitude towards the Gentiles and eating meat sacrificed to idols.
The positive attitude of the good Samaritan versus the bad attitude of the Israelites who passed the victim.
Life is not in the scriptures themselves, but in Who the scriptures point to.
A humble attitude exalts God gratitude.
Thanks be to God,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 7/14/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) | | spenlake,
A quick aside...
How do you feel about the work this guy is doing?
"He has a great ministry in South Dakota. Instead of telling the Native Americans that they need to give up their culture and their traditions, he shows them how they can use their traditions to worship God. For example, at the pow-wows, he talks about dancing for the Lord and talks about how David danced and how dancing is a form of worship. So, all these people come to the pow-wow, the drummers, the singers, the dancers, and everything in sung in Lakota and the dancers are all wearing traditional dress, but they are all dancing for the Lord."
peace, don
"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/14/2004 9:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
POW, look at your church's icons. They make the truth real to people by involving their imaginations.
Did you miss that thread where I posted a lot of quotes about icons neither being a product of the imagination of the artist nor of the one looking at it while doing their liturgy and prayers. Icons are closely tied to scripture and to the tradition of the church's devotion to Christ. Let me give an instance of both (so that no one will treat "tradition" as being an automatic no-no.): The icon of the Nativity shows all the particulars you know from the Gospel story. But it takes some artistic liberty by showing the manger to be carved out of stone--like a tomb. Its not a photograph, so that's OK. But what the slight addition to scripture (OK, a change.) accomplished is that it REMINDS us of WHY the Savior was born!!!
That's scripture. And as for tradition, it shows in the same picture another scene from later in the same day: his first washing. That event is not described in either Gospel; but we know it had to happen to clean him up. Its inclusion is placed on the corner of the icon so as to remind us of Jesus own baptism, and the fact that "As many of you as are baptized are baptized into Christ." (Galatians ?)
You said, Sahid, that the Orthodox use imagination with icons. THEY say the exact opposite, forcefully!
I really, really, really wish, Sahid, that you would not speak rashly about something that is considered to matter very much. You may speak for your self, of course. But it is not a good thing to presume and then be satisfied by one's own muse.
As you look towards entering seminary this fall, aim at being careful with what you handle! Be worthy of it in the care you exercise.
Sincerely,
PoW
I remember the post. I also remember Doc's response, and I remembered how you answered him. quote:
GREG: "Perhaps you're equating "Imagination" with "creative make believe." A common modernist mistake. If THAT is what you mean by denying the function of the imagination in creating and utilizing icons, alright."
BINGO!
And from that last line, it looks like we are agreeing.
Just make certain that your readers know the difference. Alright?
His readers do know the difference. My biggest complaint with the book is that it's so repetetive. He just pounds the point into the ground: Imagination is not make believe.
So, if you take the negative spin off the word, even the Orthodox Church must use imagination. Unless you kept staring at your icon as you described it in your post, you used your imagination too. I believe the examples Doc gives at the end of the book are consistent with Jesus as we find Him in the scripture. He is loving and firm. Kind and just. To imagine that Jesus was not there saying and doing the things those people "imagined" would be a lie. The Spirit still speaks his words to us, still comforts and heals us. To imagine otherwise is to imagine Christ still in the grave.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/14/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | A quick aside...
How do you feel about the work this guy is doing?
"He has a great ministry in South Dakota. Instead of telling the Native Americans that they need to give up their culture and their traditions, he shows them how they can use their traditions to worship God. For example, at the pow-wows, he talks about dancing for the Lord and talks about how David danced and how dancing is a form of worship. So, all these people come to the pow-wow, the drummers, the singers, the dancers, and everything in sung in Lakota and the dancers are all wearing traditional dress, but they are all dancing for the Lord."
Ex. 15:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is A FEAST TO THE LORD.
The is clearly a case of keeping one's previous culture and using such means as a way to worship THE LORD. Hence combining pagan practices with that of the TRUE GOD. As you will see God was not much pleased with it.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
Paul also warned of doing this very thing.
1 Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Notice Paul dosne't say anything about the golden calf but rather their rising up to play, hence their singing and dancing. Singing and dancing are basically NEVER a form of true worship in and of themselves. ESPECIALLY DANCING. But singing when it is singing the WORD OF GOD is acceptable. For you can speak or sing the Written Word of God. And mostly this is done in your own heart to yourself. For he purose of helping you remember his commandments to DO them.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
Mixing former pagan religius practices with the worship of God is ALWAYS idolatry, regardless of how "well meaning" it is.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
So what is this guy telling the Sioux? Is he telling them that their former songs and dances to the GREAT SPIRIT is now OK, just pretend the songs and dances are to the Lord Jesus Christ, or to the God of the Bible. This is teachng them to believe in the Lord and then commit idolatry, because those songs and dances are spiritually UNCLEAN, in that they originated with devils to begin with and there is NOTHING that can ever make them clean or acceptable to God.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
Are singing and dancing in and of themselves evil? No. All things are lawful to me, that are not specifically spoken against. For instance fornication and adultery and murder would NEVER be lawful for me. But there is no specific instruction against singing or dancing in general. However if the songs of your "culture and tradition" which you sing and the dances you do, were FIRST done as a form of worship to other Gods, then that singing and dancing becomes idolatry because you are taking something that was originally offered up as a form of worship to demons and then using it to worship God.
The temple of God, composed of the PEOPLE of God is HOLY. When idolatrous practices are revamped and introduced into that Temple among the people it is considdered a GREAT INSULT to God, in that it is bringing in something that is UNCLEAN that was done originally to worship another god. It is defiling the temple of God, when God's people adopt pagan practices and baptise them as "Christian" and God ordained methods and modes of worship.
You cannot take "one" verse of scripture, about something David did at one time, which was for a specific event and cause and then say that any kind of dancing and singing is true worship and OK with God. Regardless of what language is used, if the song is the WORD of God or stricktly based on the TRUTH of God, that song would be OK. But it is not an ordian method of worship, for God seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth.
TRUE WORSHIP is simply understanding and DOING the WILL of God as it is written in the Scriptures according to the teachings of JESUS CHRIST.
Spen has been constantly referring to the story of those priests that brought "strange fire" into the temple and were killed by God for doing so. Fire represents SPIRIT. Angels become evil and are called "devils" and portreyed themselves as "gods" to all the nations including the Indians. The methods and modes of worship that the Indians practiced originated from these "spirits of fire". Hence to use the same methods to worship the true God once you have believed in him, is to bring "strange fire" into his temple. When you are supposed to be cleaned out from all former idolatrous practices.
Who ever said that people have to absolutely have their traditions and CULT-ure? I know another guy that had a great ministry unfortunately the natives killed him, because he told them that their "traditions" were making the commandments of God of no effect.
Dancing for the Lord? This is typical of men who take and glomb on to one or two verses of scripture and then make it an ordained acceptable form of worship. I don't recall Jesus saying "For those that WORSHIP him must worship him in SONG AND IN DANCE". But rather that the Lord was seeking those who would worship him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.
I don't see any problem with people dancing or keeping some of their culture and tradition as long as that culture and tradition is not based on their former pagan religion and in doing so they are not giving or partaking of that worship with othters who are still worshipping in that manner.
Like for instance hunting buffalo, making bead work, and speaking the sioux language or wearing traditional dress and a multitude of other things would not be against God's Word. But singing and dancing with songs and having pow wows that were originally dedicated to other gods, regardless of how many people it get's to confess Jesus is Lord, is not acceptable with the Lord.
You folks think way to much that just because something seems good or looks good, or is all warm and fuzzy that it's GOD ORDAINED. When in reality if it looks good, and it feels good and it's all warm and fuzzy it's very much more likely to be Satan coming as an angel of light and a false minister of righteousness.
In Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/14/2004 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I remember the post. I also remember Doc's response, and I remembered how you answered him.[/font=Book Antiqua] quote:
GREG: "Perhaps you're equating "Imagination" with "creative make believe." A common modernist mistake. If THAT is what you mean by denying the function of the imagination in creating and utilizing icons, alright."
BINGO!
And from that last line, it looks like we are agreeing.
Just make certain that your readers know the difference. Alright?
His readers do know the difference. My biggest complaint with the book is that it's so repetetive. He just pounds the point into the ground: Imagination is not make believe.
So, if you take the negative spin off the word, even the Orthodox Church must use imagination. Unless you kept staring at your icon as you described it in your post, you used your imagination too. I believe the examples Doc gives at the end of the book are consistent with Jesus as we find Him in the scripture. He is loving and firm. Kind and just. To imagine that Jesus was not there saying and doing the things those people "imagined" would be a lie. The Spirit still speaks his words to us, still comforts and heals us. To imagine otherwise is to imagine Christ still in the grave.
Well, I didn't agree very strongly; and only to something very weak. Pointedly, later I expressed dis-eaze with it.
But to make a point, let me say this: The worship in an Orthodox Church is REALISTIC and not imaginative. That is because the "now and not yet" is strongly present. So, if I get you correctly that you "imagine Jesus is there" in your worship, I'd report that Orthodox in their worship DON'T! They don't imagine what is real. Nor do they deny the presence of absence. Parts of the liturgy employ light to evoke in reality the icon of God's true imminance. At other points the visibility or obstruction of the iconostasis and the movement of elements like the Gospel Book or candles from the Altar to the congregation and back do more than "merely" symbolize the truths both that the Gospel is given and that it is something greater than anything of this world. These things are not incompatable except as mere abstractions. I bet all Christians recognize the "now and not yet" contrast in their life. Paul commented on it. But it is NOT pretend. Its realism. That Christ IS "there" and is not pretended is central to worship.
So, I'm not comfortable with Boyd's proposition, nor your feeling that the Orthodox "imagine."
They do not "imagine" the Body and Blood. They do not imagine that "as many as are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death and resurrection.
Part of the problem is that it is so common to separate form and content. The early church did not do that. Pervasively, the EO imported that division, sometimes into its catechesis, and other times into its liturgy. But it does not belong there.
If you ever get the opportunity, Zach, to read something by Alexander Schmemann, and can do so without being caddy, do so.
Nice talking to you.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/14/2004 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Again, it's not the MEANS, it's the object of worship, the recipient of your prayers.
If I sincerely seek the wrong god, of course it's wrong.
If my motives are wrong, it's obviously wrong.
Sister, I pray that you’re right or all of us could be in for a sad surprise.
All through scripture, God deals with attitudes, NOT methods.
Cain's attitude, not his actual offering.
Jonah's attitude, not his prophecy.
The Pharisee's attitudes, not their scholarship.
Peter's attitude towards the Gentiles and eating meat sacrificed to idols.
The positive attitude of the good Samaritan versus the bad attitude of the Israelites who passed the victim.
Life is not in the scriptures themselves, but in Who the scriptures point to.
What was wrong with the attitudes of Uzzah when he touched the ark? Was he too concerned? Even more interesting, what bad attitude was the basic problem of the "many" that are sent to damnation by Jesus in Matthew 7:21? They worked miracles in the name of Jesus. They cast out demons in the name of Jesus (and remember a kingdom isn't divided against itself). They obviously were busy minstering comfort and showing love to others in the name of Christ. They brought supernatural poower in the name of Jesus. They called upon Him before His throne saying "Lord, Lord." Jesus doesn't accuse them of a bad attitude as far as I can see. He says something worse, "I never knew you." They had never actually approached and found Jesus, though they believed that they had, because He never knew them. The Lord knows those who are His. He sends them away to damnation because He never knew them and they didn't obey His ordinances and follow His means.
Spen Lake
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/14/2004 1:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Outward expression is not what saves someone. No one said that. I don't know who your arguing with, spenlake. quote:
They obviously were busy minstering comfort and showing love to others in the name of Christ. They brought supernatural poower in the name of Jesus. They called upon Him before His throne saying "Lord, Lord." Jesus doesn't accuse them of a bad attitude as far as I can see. He says something worse, "I never knew you." They had never actually approached and found Jesus, though they believed that they had, because He never knew them. The Lord knows those who are His. He sends them away to damnation because He never knew them and they didn't obey His ordinances and follow His means.
What matters is what is inward; the inside of the cup. Outward things like helping others and saying, "Lord, Lord" are good, but they don't save. I agree. I'm not sure that anyone said otherwise. If we trust in Jesus, if we "come, follow" Him, then we have salvation. What are His ordinances and means? Love. That's it. It sums up the Law and the Prophets. Love will overflow into outward things, but it is essentially inward. You can do nice things or have nice things done to you, but that doesn't mean there is love there. Hypocracy (acting or posing) will get nowhere. Everyone seems to agree. Looking exactly like Jesus on the outside does nothing for salvation without obedience to the inward command of love. If I speak like angels, if I am a true prophet, if I know every mystery, if I have perfect faith, if I give all I have to those in need, even if I am willing to die, it doesn't matter if I don't have love. (my very sloppy paraphase of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/14/2004 9:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Again, it's not the MEANS, it's the object of worship, the recipient of your prayers.
If I sincerely seek the wrong god, of course it's wrong.
If my motives are wrong, it's obviously wrong.
Sister, I pray that you’re right or all of us could be in for a sad surprise.
All through scripture, God deals with attitudes, NOT methods.
Cain's attitude, not his actual offering.
Jonah's attitude, not his prophecy.
The Pharisee's attitudes, not their scholarship.
Peter's attitude towards the Gentiles and eating meat sacrificed to idols.
The positive attitude of the good Samaritan versus the bad attitude of the Israelites who passed the victim.
Life is not in the scriptures themselves, but in Who the scriptures point to.
Just skimming this tonight (back from vacation) - but yes! It is all about relationship, and not about rules - not about the law - which does not make anyone righteous, only more painfully aware of their shortcomings. It seems to me, that if relationship is the primary focus for the Father - that it should be our primary focus as well. Instead, we often seek to find some rule to "rule each other out." Make sense? 
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/14/2004 9:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Outward expression is not what saves someone. No one said that. I don't know who your arguing with, spenlake. quote:
They obviously were busy minstering comfort and showing love to others in the name of Christ. They brought supernatural poower in the name of Jesus. They called upon Him before His throne saying "Lord, Lord." Jesus doesn't accuse them of a bad attitude as far as I can see. He says something worse, "I never knew you." They had never actually approached and found Jesus, though they believed that they had, because He never knew them. The Lord knows those who are His. He sends them away to damnation because He never knew them and they didn't obey His ordinances and follow His means.
What matters is what is inward; the inside of the cup. Outward things like helping others and saying, "Lord, Lord" are good, but they don't save. I agree. I'm not sure that anyone said otherwise. If we trust in Jesus, if we "come, follow" Him, then we have salvation. What are His ordinances and means? Love. That's it. It sums up the Law and the Prophets. Love will overflow into outward things, but it is essentially inward. You can do nice things or have nice things done to you, but that doesn't mean there is love there. Hypocracy (acting or posing) will get nowhere. Everyone seems to agree. Looking exactly like Jesus on the outside does nothing for salvation without obedience to the inward command of love. If I speak like angels, if I am a true prophet, if I know every mystery, if I have perfect faith, if I give all I have to those in need, even if I am willing to die, it doesn't matter if I don't have love. (my very sloppy paraphase of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3)
Bravo! Bravissimo!
 Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/15/2004 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If a Mormon with a sincere heart desiring to seek and follow God called upon his Jesus, does he come to God and follow Him? If the heart is all that matters, why wouldn't this be acceptable to God?
Two questions: What is "call upon Jesus" here? And, what does the Bible actually 'say' about God saving. A third thing, perhaps, is what is considered saved/saving -- cause some definitions are abstractions, and others organic/real. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/15/2004 6:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If a Mormon with a sincere heart desiring to seek and follow God called upon his Jesus, does he come to God and follow Him? If the heart is all that matters, why wouldn't this be acceptable to God?
Hi,
Is this a rhetorical question? Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, except by me..." Obviously the heart is paramount to the Father, but only in relationship to Him; the Truth. The two go hand in hand. Does God love that Mormon man? Absolutely. But love is a relationship, and not coerced.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/15/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If a Mormon with a sincere heart desiring to seek and follow God called upon his Jesus, does he come to God and follow Him? If the heart is all that matters, why wouldn't this be acceptable to God?
Spen,
I'm copying this from a conversation on the narrative theology thread - because I believe it relates to what you have asked above - about truth, about how we experience truth, and I believe that cataphatic prayer is just one of the ways that truth is embodied, and truth embodied brings about transformation in the life of a believer. Truth in the person of Jesus Christ, in His Word, through His Spirit - and made real to us in infinitely creative and sovereign ways.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
(Alyosha) It seems clear to me that truth is both something that is propositional, and to use your term, "embodied." By affirming that truth will be embodied, I don't thereby deny that truth is also propositional. I'm not at all convinced that the two notions are related this way.
(Jo-Anne) Well, I'm definitely treading water here, but will add things where I think I can, and hope for the best! Just a thought here - truth that is not embodied (experienced) is not transformational. A truth may be propositional, but until it becomes real... Perhaps that is one of the reasons why cataphatic prayer is so powerful?
(Alyosha)I would further ask you what you mean by "faith." As you probably know, "faith" is not a self-interpreting term, and people differ widely in what they mean when they use it. So, I think it's important that I know where you are coming from on "faith."
(Jo-Anne) Aside from the Hebrews 11:1 definition, which actually may define faith for believers and non-believers alike, it is my understanding that our faith is actually the faith of the Son of God, just as it is His righteousness, not ours. This has always been a bit of a mystery to me, with free will; that we choose, but that He gives us faith to believe. (Think I need a life preserver here). Just as all people worship, all people can have faith, and all are transformed, but not all are believers.
(Alyosha) OK, again I'll need to know what "trans-rational" and "supra-rational" mean before I can have even the slightest idea of what you speak of.
(Jo-Anne) "Ditto."
(Alyosha) Also, I think it important to note that simply someone verbally affirming that they are being rational doesn't make them rational. Being rational is how people should be, but as I'm sure you are well aware, certainly isn't a good descriptor of how people always are!
(Jo-Anne) So, true. We need something to measure it against. Truth is not truth, unless it is rooted and grounded in the word. The Word, and our picture of the Father in Jesus Christ is what we measure "truth" against. The Holy Spirit is our teacher in this.
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/15/2004 6:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If a Mormon with a sincere heart desiring to seek and follow God called upon his Jesus, does he come to God and follow Him? If the heart is all that matters, why wouldn't this be acceptable to God?
Or, how about someone who eats meat sacrificed to an idol?
What if he sincerely seeks God and calls upon Jesus?
Or, how about someone who is a prostitute and helps spies sneak into her city?
Or, how about a thief in the midst of his execution?
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