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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived."
Scripture does support the use of healing images, such as described in "Seeing is Believing".
Thanks to Keith for the scriptural support. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived."
Scripture does support the use of healing images, such as described in "Seeing is Believing".
Thanks to Keith for the scriptural support.
I don't take one verse to be a blank-check. Do you? | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/13/2004 2:38 PM (GMT -6) | | .
"Blank-check"??
I respectfully submit that a solitary verse is always preferable to
an empty arsenal .
Spenlake was "shooting" blanks when he attacked the scriptural foundation of "Seeing is Believing," and FALSELY ACCUSED Dr. Boyd of practicing "Necromancy" !
As you will recall,
Spenlake wrote (and wrote, and wrote, and wrote, and wrote):
quote:
1. Necromancy is forbidden.
2. Dr. Boyd claims to be truly having a spiritual experience with the real Jesus and that this is inspired.
3. In these spiritual experiences, Dr. Boyd also experiences the dead and communes with them.
I have made the charge that this is necromancy.
LATE-BREAKING NEWS!
Spen later admitted:
quote:
. . . . necromancer isn't even a scriptural term.
.
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived."
Scripture does support the use of healing images, such as described in "Seeing is Believing".
Thanks to Keith for the scriptural support.
This is taken out of context! The scripture you cite above is a direct provision from GOD! The book Seeing is Believing is from Greg Boyd, not God.
Also this scripture was a shadow of the real thing to come, which is Christ being lifted up on a pole.
John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so I the Son of Man, must be lifted up on a pole, so that everyone who believes in me will have eternal life.
So you see, this scripture is actually talking about salvation and not about using an image to aid someone in prayer. In fact, the whole context of John 3:1-21 is talking about salvation in Christ!
I would say this was a poor application of scripture!
Why can't people just get on their knees and pour out their heart to Him like Jesus did? Why do people write books about what to imagine when they pray so it will benefit them? I am growing increasingly frustrated with man-centered theology! I've got a news flash! Jesus was REAL, He walked and talked and ate and cried and slept! He was a real person! Why do we have to imagine Him then?
And I think that if people are running around trying to find scripture to back up something already written, then it probably should not have been written in the first place!
Thanks,
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | I was impressed by Jim's post. Sharp thinking.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Mottl
...this scripture was a shadow of the real thing to come, which is Christ being lifted up on a pole.
John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so I the Son of Man, must be lifted up on a pole, so that everyone who believes in me will have eternal life.
So you see, this scripture is actually talking about salvation and not about using an image to aid someone in prayer. In fact, the whole context of John 3:1-21 is talking about salvation in Christ!
I would say this was a poor application of scripture!
If any of us loose the desire of the heart to see God's salvation at work, and fail to be quickened at the glimps of God's revealing his hand, then may we be still and stop, and return to where we lost it.
As to what occured to me -- less profound than Jim's foundational thought -- it seems, from what has been said about this book of Boyd's (which I only read a portion of, while it was in the pre-publishing phase), it occurs to me as an artist that a SNAKE is a scarry image, while the kind of word-images people have used to describe the book are warm-fuzzy images.
The two don't seem related. They seem like two different kinds of things.
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/13/2004 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If any of us loose the desire of the heart to see God's salvation at work, and fail to be quickened at the glimps of God's revealing his hand, then may we be still and stop, and return to where we lost it.
Yes POW! Why does it seem to me that things are getting to complicated these days? It seems to me that people are racing to find a nugget of truth this or that book, not that it's bad to write or read books, but look at a Christian catalog and there are hundreds of books and it's like what's going on? I think I just answered my own question: Why is so much discernment needed today? Just look at all of the books that come out, and how many of them focus on God teaching us how to submit to the Gospel? Don't mind me, I'm just blowing off steam.
quote:
As to what occured to me -- less profound than Jim's foundational thought -- it seems, from what has been said about this book of Boyd's (which I only read a portion of, while it was in the pre-publishing phase), it occurs to me as an artist that a SNAKE is a scarry image, while the kind of word-images people have used to describe the book are warm-fuzzy images.
POW, could you elaborate on this thought a litte more?
Thanks,
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Mottl
quote:
As to what occured to me -- less profound than Jim's foundational thought -- it seems, from what has been said about this book of Boyd's (which I only read a portion of, while it was in the pre-publishing phase), it occurs to me as an artist that a SNAKE is a scarry image, while the kind of word-images people have used to describe the book are warm-fuzzy images.
POW, could you elaborate on this thought a litte more?
Keep in mind I didn't buy the book.
Snake = ugly hiddeous image, as scary as the death it reminds us God is greater than.
Pleasant re-shaping of history imaginarium = _______________ (fill in the blank).
Someone correct me with a specific if this is way off. It just struck me that way.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 6:58 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/13/2004 8:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Jim, you said "Why can't people just pour out their heart before him?
From what I have experienced it's because they don't want God to truly know what's in their heart, and sometimes they don't know what's in their heart themselves.
I have been doing some research on this "imaginative" prayer, also called "cataphatic prayer". Here are some "interesting sights".
http://quicksitemaker.com/members/prayer/CatC.html
One thing I have been seeing for a long time is the introduction of pagan spiritual practices through the means of simply changing words and images. However the practice of what is called "cataphatic prayer" come straight out of eastern mysticism. Interestingly enough the Roman Catholic Church has been practicing this type of prayer for over a thousand years, and it really didn't do much to keep them in the "love" of God. And one thing I notice is that on the web sight given above they make it a point several times to try and claim that what they do is NOT eastern or new age mysticism. This just really means that it IS and they are trying to deny it.
quote:
"This concept of "cataphatic contemplation," or God initiated supernatural contemplation connected with images, and the mysteries of Faith, is drawn from several Church sources that have indicated the substance of it, but, as far as I know, not, heretofore, in definite, theological language. The Pope has recently emphasized the reality of contemplative prayer with images in connection with the mysteries of the Rosary. The work below is meant to further efforts in this direction as Incarnational Images of the Mysteries of the Faith take on new relevance and dignity, today, in an effort to clarify the powerful difference of Christianity from the Eastern-influenced, apophatic contemplative soup that would swallow the Faith of Jesus Christ in mantra-chanting, and religious syncretism. ("Cataphatic" comes from the Greek word meaning affirmative "kataphatikos," from kataphasko, to make a positive statement, to affirm.)
You may wonder, why bother to bring up such issues? We have the Via Negativa and, as everyone agrees, that's the most powerful form of contemplative prayer, and through it, we are fully capable of becoming saints. And the answer is, "Yes, there has always been apophatic contemplation, at all times and in many religions, even pre-Christian religions." However, in today's syncretistic religious environment, it is necessary to separate Christianity from the lukewarm New Age and Eastern mass, and to define what is different and special about it.
Now that's pretty bad when it's getting hard to tell New Age and Eastern mystisicim from Christianity, don't you think?
Now when I read this I got interested to know, just what is "via negitiva", this so called type of prayer that they say is the most powerful form of prayer that enables one to become a saint. Here is the definition between the two types of prayer, cata or kataphatic and apopahtic prayer.
"the kataphatic way describes God in positive images – the via affirmativa (or via positiva) which "underscores the human capacity to reach God through creatures, images and symbols" (Edwards). Examples of these are, God is a roaring lion, a rock or a consuming fire. Jesus is a friend, bread, or light for the world. The Holy Spirit is like a dove, flame, or wind. This, by the way, is the dominant way of Western Christianity both Roman Catholic and Protestant. Indeed, most modern spiritual language whether conservative, liberal, or radical, modern or post modern, and most movements whether evangelical, charismatic, social justice or renewal work in this way.
The second, the apophatic way, is the via negativa which regards all expressions about God as completely inadequate in describing the reality of who God is and what God is like. Such writers often talk about what God is not. "God is best known in obscure awareness", is Tilden Edwards’ expression. Karl Barth, the Swiss theologian of last century is very clear that any images of God are inadequate and can lead to idolatry at worst and pale expressions of ourselves at best!
http://www.sgm.org.nz/ArchSumm00-01.htm
One basically eventually leads to the other. As I was reading the part about kataphatic prayer, in the statement: "the kataphatic way describes God in positive images – the via affirmativa (or via positiva) which "underscores the human capacity to reach God through creatures, images and symbols. I was reminded of the following scripture.
Romans 1:21 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
There is only ONE WAY in which God is known and that is through his written word, which holy men of God spoke and then wrote down as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. But these people do not want to go to the Word, they want a "experience". And one reason they don't want to go to the Word to "experience" God is because the Word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. They do not come to the light of the Word of God because their deeds are evil. In REAL prayer you have to pour out your heart, and people don't want God to see what's in their heart. Interesting that the next verses there in Romans who exactly what kapaphatic and apophatic prayer have done for the Catholic Chruch and also what you are going to be seeing a lot more of in the protestant Churches as they continue to adopt these methods of prayer.
Romans 1:Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
kataphatic prayer changes the glory of God into IMAGES. Jesus Christ was the glory of God through what he TAUGHT, because he always did the Father's will. What he taught was WRITTEN down for us to learn, retain and follow, so that we could GLORIFY GOD by our thoughts, words and deeds as we RETAINED that knowledge of God in our minds and meditated on THE WRITTEN WORD, NOT on our personal picture of what we think Jesus may have looked like.
Once kataphatic prayer is accepted in replacement of the meditation on the written word of God, the next step is Apophatic prayer of which the highest form is "Via Negativa", interestingly enough also called "THE WAY OF DARKNESS" Apopahtic prayer is the total emptying of ones mind to become one with the ONE. Really what it is, is the natural step in the progression, since people did not like to retain God in the KNOWLEDGE from the written Word, and changed him into something they liked to "imagine", they have stepped towards EMPTYING THEIR HEAD in general, so the next step in line is APOPAHTIC PRAYER or the prayer of NO WORDS OR IMAGES AT ALL. A complete empying of the mind, to receive the "spirit".
However this spirit brings 7 others along with him.
Matt. 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
You were born into this world as a child of the god of this world. When you came to Christ you got spiritually cleaned out. But if after you come to Christ you do not put the Word of God in your head, and walk according to the teachings of Christ in EVERYTHING, there comes a time when the a devil spirit will come to see if there is anytihng in your head that will keep him from entering. The only thing that keeps out evil spirits is the accurate knowledge of the Word of God. Remember what Jesus said to the Devil IT IS WRITTEN...
When that spirit finds that all you basically have in your head is your own imagination and a corrupted version of the Scriptures, he then is allowed to find 7 other spirits and come dwell in you "Christian" or NO.
The problem is that many of God's people do not know that much about Eastern mysticism, therefore when it's presented to them in Christian terms they are deceived into it's practice. In reality you are not conjuring up "Jesus" but a devil spirit with the name of Jesus, for the Word of God basically has no place in this form of prayer.
It would do people good to research where this stuff originates from, although those that do not like to retain God in their knowledge through an accurate knowledge of the scriptures, don't really care anyway, and will go to great lengths to defend it as "harmless" and "helpful".
However there are also many well meaning Christians that have just gotten innocently deceived by this sort of thing that would be truly mortified if they knew what it really was.
I have a friend that has been practicing a form of it. It never did set right with me but until this subject came up and i did some research on it, I couldn't figure out exactly why. This morning we had a great talk and I explained what I had been learning about it, and she immediately renouced it, and is going to begin praying with her heart and meditating on the Scriptures.
The sad thing is that so many people do not realize that only meditating on the scriptures and praying according to the will of God brings true deliverance.
Psl. 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
IF you are not meditating in the scriptures day and night to learn the truth and walk on it, you are not exercising yourself unto godliness. Hence you can be deceived and wind up being unrighteous and ungodly while still claiming to be christian. And commit the greivios sin of perverting the right ways of the most high.
In the love of Christ,
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/14/2004 12:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeesh.
The issue isn't whether looking at snake is the only way to pray. All the example shows is that God (at least once) used an image to heal people. It's not contrary to His nature. It's not sin to use your imagination. POW, look at your church's icons. They make the truth real to people by involving their imaginations. Jim, Jesus is real. It's present tense too. He's around now. The Spirit can show Him to us, because He's still real. Larris, look at the verses you quoted. quote:
Romans 1:21 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Now what famous book describes God as a bird, or a quadriped (say a lion), or a creeping thing (how 'bout a snake?)? If we use your interpretation of Romans 1, then we must reject the Bible itself or at least those who used those images: Jacob, Moses, David, Isaiah, John, Jesus...
Come on. God can use your imagination to reveal Himself. What is a vision to someone who doesn't have an imagination. What is a dream? What is the last book of the Bible?
I have my reservations about prayer as described in Seeing is Believing, but they are about how to assure that the Holy Spirit is in charge of the process, not whether He wants to be.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/14/2004 1:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
it seems, from what has been said about this book of Boyd's (which I only read a portion of, while it was in the pre-publishing phase), it occurs to me as an artist that a SNAKE is a scarry image, while the kind of word-images people have used to describe the book are warm-fuzzy images.
Experiencing God through imaginative prayer is a beautiful experience. Of course we need to align our hearts and minds with the truth found in the Word. I am struggling to understand how some of you are equating Dr. Boyd's book on experiencing Jesus in the midst of a painful memory with being demonic. Of course we need to have the fear of the Lord and test every thought with scripture.
When I look at scripture I find many places where the saints of God used the imagination coupled with the fear of the Lord. Sirach 1:18 "To fear the Lord is the flower of wisdom that blossoms with peace and good health." The Song of Songs is total imagery. As I am thumbing through the bible there are WAY too many scriptures throughout it to put them here but there are MANY examples in scripture where the writer uses the imagination to describe their relationship with God and uses beautiful imagery such as a flower. Psalms and Proverbs are full of imagery.
In meditated prayer we use our imagination to help sort out what the words are expressing. We are to worship our Lord with ALL of our being. The imagination (imaginative prayer such as in Dr Boyd's book) is one way we can encounter Christ in a meaningful way. Just as the writers in the bible used imagery to make sense of what they experienced so too we can make sense of where God is in the midst of the pain in our life. We can bring TRUTH to the lies that were installed during a painful memory. The flower of wisdom we gain through seeking God during imaginative prayer can blossom with peace and health of mind just as the scripture verse above states.
A blossoming flower is a beautiful sight to behold. A blossoming heart is a beautiful sight before God. Imaginative prayer can bring about the pruning necessary to allow the heart to blossom with health and peace. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/14/2004 2:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Jim_Mottl
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Numbers 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived."
Scripture does support the use of healing images, such as described in "Seeing is Believing".
This is taken out of context! The scripture you cite above is a direct provision from GOD! The book Seeing is Believing is from Greg Boyd, not God.
I'm not equating the book with the Serpent, I wrote, "such as described in"......
People looked at the Bronze Serpent, the Spirit of God healed them.
People envision Jesus and others forgiving them, the Spirit of God heals them.
quote:
Also this scripture was a shadow of the real thing to come, which is Christ being lifted up on a pole.
Yes, AND people got healed as well.
quote:
So you see, this scripture is actually talking about salvation and not about using an image to aid someone in prayer.
AND people got healed when they looked at the serpent.
quote:
Why can't people just get on their knees and pour out their heart to Him like Jesus did?
They are. "Imaginative prayer" contains two words. What's the second word? 
quote:
Jesus was REAL, He walked and talked and ate and cried and slept! He was a real person! Why do we have to imagine Him then?
Well, if He walks into the room while you're praying, I guess you wouldn't need to imagine Him, would you?
Joel 2:28
"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions."
If you've never seen a vision....... hmmmmmm
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Armchair Theologian
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul so that...
People healed by
1. looking at a Bronze Serpent
2. calling the elders together for prayer and laying on of hands
3. touching clothes that had been on Paul
4. touching Jesus' garment
5. here's spit and mud in your eye*
.
.
.
There's something more important to healing than the technique used, that's the message I'm getting from scripture.
*It's like God is mocking our myopic fascination with technique and showing us that He's the healer, no matter the method.
Unless Paul's hands went along with the clothes there were carrying away from Paul, "by the hands of" means "by means of".
I will return to my question on the post that spawned this thread. Can we decide and choose ANY means to seek for healing and consider them to be God's means as long as we approach them with a pure and sincer heart, loving God with all our might?
I have been asked to relate personal experiences and this post encourages me to do so. We have seen that people have been healed by God in the past using handkerchiefs as "objects" for their healing. Does this mean that ANY handkerchief will do and be God's means? I have such an object in my possession. I went to Oral Roberts University and was present when he announced the 60 story City of Faith. At this time he made several (perhaps 10s of thousands) of "healing hankies" for his supporters. They have the handprint of Oral printed on one side with a prayer including the verse above. We were told that Oral prayed over these before they were sent out. Were these means God's means? Can anybody claim that their means are God's means.
It seems to me that God's means had results that I didn't experience with the healing hankies. All those who obeyed the command of God as given through Moses and looked at the bronze serpent were healed. Unfortunately, not all those who requested and used healing hankies were. As there were many thousands given out, there were some powerful "testimonies" regarding them. Perhaps, this would mean that Dr. Boyd, or Swan Lake, if they were truly sincere in their desire to heal people, should send out hankies and failure to do so isn't "love."
Perhaps the answer could be that God ordains "means" and that the fact that God Himself commanded the bronze serpent to Moses, a reputible prophet of God, had something to do with the authority behind them. Perhaps it might be just a little important that it was Paul's hands that touched the hankies. It could also be that I am extremely narrow and that I don't appreciate a good powerful hankie when I see one.
Armchair has provided a few more "means" than Swan, touching garments and mud. I would continue to ask the question if the fact that they were the garments of the Son of God and the creator of the Universe walking bodily on the earth might be salient as to whether they were unique? This same man who healed a man with mud made of water and "dust" also created the eye itself out of this same "dust." The issue that they were His gaments and that He made the mud seems important to me. If there are any of you that would like to buy my mud (or hankie) and look for God there, I can fix a price. I make no claims as to the effectual nature of them, however, because I am not convinced that I can decide which object I will approach God with. I find it more conforting to approach Him in ways that He has promised that He will certainly be found.
Thus, I still ask the question, "Can we decide to approach God any way we desire as long as our heart is sincere and pure?"
Spen Lake
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
POW, look at your church's icons. They make the truth real to people by involving their imaginations.
Did you miss that thread where I posted a lot of quotes about icons neither being a product of the imagination of the artist nor of the one looking at it while doing their liturgy and prayers. Icons are closely tied to scripture and to the tradition of the church's devotion to Christ. Let me give an instance of both (so that no one will treat "tradition" as being an automatic no-no.): The icon of the Nativity shows all the particulars you know from the Gospel story. But it takes some artistic liberty by showing the manger to be carved out of stone--like a tomb. Its not a photograph, so that's OK. But what the slight addition to scripture (OK, a change.) accomplished is that it REMINDS us of WHY the Savior was born!!!
That's scripture. And as for tradition, it shows in the same picture another scene from later in the same day: his first washing. That event is not described in either Gospel; but we know it had to happen to clean him up. Its inclusion is placed on the corner of the icon so as to remind us of Jesus own baptism, and the fact that "As many of you as are baptized are baptized into Christ." (Galatians ?)
You said, Sahid, that the Orthodox use imagination with icons. THEY say the exact opposite, forcefully!
I really, really, really wish, Sahid, that you would not speak rashly about something that is considered to matter very much. You may speak for your self, of course. But it is not a good thing to presume and then be satisfied by one's own muse.
As you look towards entering seminary this fall, aim at being careful with what you handle! Be worthy of it in the care you exercise.
Sincerely,
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
POW, look at your church's icons. They make the truth real to people by involving their imaginations.
Did you miss that thread where I posted a lot of quotes about icons neither being a product of the imagination of the artist nor of the one looking at it while doing their liturgy and prayers. Icons are closely tied to scripture and to the tradition of the church's devotion to Christ. Let me give an instance of both (so that no one will treat "tradition" as being an automatic no-no.): The icon of the Nativity shows all the particulars you know from the Gospel story. But it takes some artistic liberty by showing the manger to be carved out of stone--like a tomb. Its not a photograph, so that's OK. But what the slight addition to scripture (OK, a change.) accomplished is that it REMINDS us of WHY the Savior was born!!!
That's scripture. And as for tradition, it shows in the same picture another scene from later in the same day: his first washing. That event is not described in either Gospel; but we know it had to happen to clean him up. Its inclusion is placed on the corner of the icon so as to remind us of Jesus own baptism, and the fact that "As many of you as are baptized are baptized into Christ." (Galatians ?)
You said, Sahid, that the Orthodox use imagination with icons. THEY say the exact opposite, forcefully!
I really, really, really wish, Sahid, that you would not speak rashly about something that is considered to matter very much. You may speak for your self, of course. But it is not a good thing to presume and then be satisfied by one's own muse.
As you look towards entering seminary this fall, aim at being careful with what you handle! Be worthy of it in the care you exercise.
Sincerely,
PoW
POW,
I have appreciated your explanations of the icons and their opposition to freestyle mysticism and spiritism. I don't know if I "embrace" them as you but they seem less dangerous than I once believed.
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Perhaps the answer could be that God ordains "means" and that the fact that God Himself commanded the bronze serpent to Moses, a reputible prophet of God, had something to do with the authority behind them. Perhaps it might be just a little important that it was Paul's hands that touched the hankies. It could also be that I am extremely narrow and that I don't appreciate a good powerful hankie when I see one.
I think the point was that God is the healer, not the "ordained means". That's the point of all the various and sundry techniques. 
How about secular doctors? They heal and don't seem to be "ordained means".
How about acupuncturists? They heal and don't seem to be "ordained means".
If I'm praying and within my prayer, the Holy Spirit provides a vision (as Joel prophesized) of someone forgiving me or apologizing to me and that heals my mental and emotional pain, it would be an act of DISBELIEF to:
1. not trust that God would protect me from satanic influence
2. think the technique was "not ordained"
3. think God places mechanics over relationship
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Thus, I still ask the question, "Can we decide to approach God any way we desire as long as our heart is sincere and pure?"
First, I'd say that no one is trying to justify all arbitrary methods, but just the method of prayer.
Second,
Romans 10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Jeremiah 33:3
"Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know."
Psalms 50:15
"Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me."
The "ordained means" appears to be..... "calling".
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Perhaps the answer could be that God ordains "means" and that the fact that God Himself commanded the bronze serpent to Moses, a reputible prophet of God, had something to do with the authority behind them. Perhaps it might be just a little important that it was Paul's hands that touched the hankies. It could also be that I am extremely narrow and that I don't appreciate a good powerful hankie when I see one.
I think the point was that God is the healer, not the "ordained means". That's the point of all the various and sundry techniques.
How about secular doctors? They heal and don't seem to be "ordained means".
How about acupuncturists? They heal and don't seem to be "ordained means".
If I'm praying and within my prayer, the Holy Spirit provides a vision (as Joel prophesized) of someone forgiving me or apologizing to me and that heals my mental and emotional pain, it would be an act of DISBELIEF to:
1. not trust that God would protect me from satanic influence
2. think the technique was "not ordained"
3. think God places mechanics over relationship
I don't at all dispute that God is the healer, and that HE heals through His ordained means. He has given us "common revelation" with science and our physical senses and reason to live in this life on earth. I belive that when it comes to interaction with the spirit world, however, He has given us means to access it. He has forbidden us to access it as we desire, regardless of our sincerity or "heart."
Would you believe that if I approach a shaman or a person that will perform some spiritual ceremony over me for physical healing, that God's healing power is there for me to bless me? Perhaps I believe that the Holy Spirit has told me that He, the true God, wants me to go to the Dali Lama and touch his robe ( touching robes was a legitimate "means" in scripture for a miracle), is this God's will for me and will I meet Him if I approach the Dali Lama with a sincere heart of obedience to what I believed the Holy Spirit told me and with a love for the true God burning in my heart?
If not, why?
In this scenario, I belive that the "mechanical means" was given to me by God and that to tough the Dali Lama's robes is obedience to the true God. To carry it a step further, suppose a pastor told men that God's means to heal me of my particular disease at this particular time was to touch the robe of the Dali Lama. What would you say then? Could this be God really leading me to my healing? If so, why? If I was healed would this "prove" that it was God speaking through His Holy Spirit?
Regrding the means as "mechanics over relationships," would the woman have been healed if she had not touched the garments of Jesus. Would the people in the wilderness been healed if they had not obeyed and looked at the bronze serpent. Would God have seen the sincere hearts of those dying in the wilderness and helaed them anyways if they had not looked at the means (mechanical) that He had given them? Would people have been healed by the the handkerchiefs from Paul's hand if they had refused to touch them?
If I refuse to listen to and obey the means explicitly given in scripures because I believe that I can hear God internally and find my own means for healing and freedom, is this OK? Perhaps it is OK if one's heart is sincere enough and pure enough.
On the other hand, Charlie Brown spent every Halloween waiting for the Great Pumpkin to come because of his sincerity. Maybe what Charlie Brown found is all that really awaits those who are banking on a sincere heart to assure success in their search for God.
Spen Lake
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:53 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
POW, I have appreciated your explanations of the icons and their opposition to freestyle mysticism and spiritism. I don't know if I "embrace" them as you but they seem less dangerous than I once believed.
I can't imagine a more conservative group when it comes to images than the Orthodox. They use images, and believe they MUST because of the Incarnation. That's the core to the idea. Christ fully God and fully man can and must be pictured. To do otherwise -- at least as history developed and particular challenges happened -- ios to deny Him. And they are "realists" in that it is not their idea of Christ but Christ himself (through the icon; not the photo-quality of the icon) that is venerated through the icon. The variety of images of Christ as Lord-of-All (Pantocrator) do not, in their variety of ethnic facial appearance riase questions about noses; rather, they all present the TRUTH that we worship Christ in the "Land of the Living" where he STILL is fully God and fully man -- our ascended Lord. And he is shown holding the Gospel book in one hand and blessing with the other. All of these things have been challenged by heresies in the past. But the icon, as visual dogma (not a replacement for scripture!!!!), consistantly proclaims the truth that the Gospel reveals to us.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Thus, I still ask the question, "Can we decide to approach God any way we desire as long as our heart is sincere and pure?"
First, I'd say that no one is trying to justify all arbitrary methods, but just the method of prayer.
Second,
Romans 10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Jeremiah 33:3
"Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know."
Psalms 50:15
"Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me."
The "ordained means" appears to be..... "calling".
The men in Matthew 7:21 called on the Lord and were damned because they were lawless. False assurance based upon "sincerity" or the fact that "I called" seems a weak response to the issue of eternal damnation or eternal life.
Jeremiah 7:8 places qualifications and seems to imply that just "calling" is not enough.
“Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. “Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—that you may do all these abominations?
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/14/2004 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I don't at all dispute that God is the healer, and that HE heals through His ordained means.
Would you believe that if I approach a shaman or a person that will perform some spiritual ceremony over me for physical healing
go to the Dali Lama and touch his robe
Charlie Brown spent every Halloween
Now prove that prayer (communication with Jesus) is equivalent to:
1. communication with animisitic spirits (shamanism)
2. communication with the Dalai Lama incarnation of the Buddha
3. communication with the Great Pumpkin
The recipient of the prayer in "Seeing is Believing" is Jesus.
There is no medium.
There are no corpses, entrails, bones, or any other objects
There are visions such as Joel prophesized
There are mental images which bring healing such as the Bronze Serpent
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