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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Techniques to seek "Jesus" - Zen, Yoga, and TM | Forum Quick Jump
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funkytown
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 7/22/2004 3:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Thank you for the welcome, Jo-Anne, and for sharing your reflections and experience with this topic. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 3:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Have a good night, and God Bless. Welcome Funkytown. I don't think I've seen you here before. BTW...I used to do the yoga asanas myself...many years ago, when I could do them! I enjoyed it. I also taught a nursing class using one of the breathing techniques (covering one nostril, breathing in through the other, then exhaling very slowly through pursed lips...very relaxing...a "cleansing breath" I think it was called.
That's it!!!! That'll be the next thread started by spenlake:
"Seeing is Believing -- Lamaze Breathing Technique"
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/22/2004 3:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Ann,
Jo-Ann says,
"Do I sound like I'm riding the fence here? If I do, it's because I believe that we need to be as open as possible to the Spirit, while being true to the Word. The lines get fuzzy...things are not as black and white as we would like to think (I think)."..." Meditation is a good thing. Transcendental is something else. I agree with Spen. We need to be very careful. The enemy is far more deceitful than we realize. He can make a good imitation look like the real thing."
WHY is transcendental meditation wrong to you and meditation is right. In your understanding, what is it about TM that is wrong. There are many brilliant authors, including Kelsey, that believe that it is an acceptable way to enhance prayer and experience God. What are your reasons for rejecting it? If, as Kelsey claims, he feels closer to God when approaching Him through TM, on what basis could you question him? Why couldn't TM be a facet of the meditation mentioned in the Bible?
Are all approaches and techniques that we consider occult an "imitation" of a legitimate technique that God has given to us. What is the original godly ouija, or tarrot, or crystal ball, or inquiring of the liver? I think that this concept is flawed and extremely weak when considered in a factual context.
Does God leave us with only a grey area in something so important as approaching Him and growing in grace? I think, based on your posts, that you somehow discern based upon a "feeling" as to whether the spirit you encounter is "good" or "bad." If it is true, what would an angel of light feel like to you. Could you feel one that was false? What if the site that POW posted on Eastern Religions is correct. Morton Kelsey, along with Richard Foster, states that their inner spiritual journey that they pursue in their imaginations may be extrememly dangerous due to the other hostile spiritual beings that exist there. They simply feel that the danger is worth it.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/22/2004 4:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
What is the original godly ouija, or tarrot, or crystal ball, or inquiring of the liver?
Interestingly enough as part of one of the most sacred of rituals , the sin offering, we find the following instruction to Aaron...
Leviticus 16
8)He is to cast lots for the two goats-one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat.
9) Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD and sacrifice it for a sin offering.
This use of a mechanical means of determining what to do is instructed of the Lord, how is this any different from a ouija board?
peace, don
Great point!! This could be a major re-discovery of lost truth for the church and a major contribution of this board to Christianity. Why couldn't we use a ouija board now annd sincerely ask the Holy Spirit to come and use it for God's glory? We could ask the spirit that came if it confessed that Jesus came in the flesh (John 4:1) and be certain that God Himself was speaking to us. We could, for extra protection, only ask the board to point out specific scripture verses for me to look up for guidance.
You may be right, Don, this could be the technique lost to the church since the 1st chapter of Acts and the one that will bring us back to the power, fervor and life in the spirit of the early church. Perhaps, we could private lable a "Christus Victor" version of it and donate the sales to a good cause to advance the kingdom such as a youth center to influence young Christians in the things of the spirit. Just think of what God could do to bring back spirituality to the deadened west with such a visible too for the certain manifestation of spiritual guidance.
Then again, you may be wrong...
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Keith, you've been the ONLY one yammering on and on about ouija boards, trying to lure someone into mentioning them in a reply as well, THEN you jump all over him.
That's the most pathetic technique you've used.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Do you want to wade in and provide us the scriptural answer as to why they are wrong or defend them if you believe that they are a legitimate technique to seek the spirit?
I see no need to defend the use of ouija boards because YOU are the only person talking about ouija boards.
I've stated in many posts, that the use of mediums was forbidden in scripture.
Now prove that praying to Jesus is using a medium and I'll believe you.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The concept that they are a "graven image" seems extremely weak and not believable.
For a true "graven image", look in the mirror. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The concept that they are a "graven image" seems extremely weak and not believable.
For a true "graven image", look in the mirror.
The guy's just trolling for arguments.
He attacks imaginative PRAYER by invoking ouija boards and then demands that we defend the use of ouija boards!
Same guy called Jonah a false prophet because his idea of prophecy didn't line up with scripture!
Same guy said that the Nephilim died out after the flood, ignoring the fact that David killed one of them 1365 years after the flood!
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The concept that they are a "graven image" seems extremely weak and not believable.
For a true "graven image", look in the mirror.
The guy's just trolling for arguments.
He attacks imaginative PRAYER by invoking ouija boards and then demands that we defend the use of ouija boards!
Same guy called Jonah a false prophet because his idea of prophecy didn't line up with scripture!
Same guy said that the Nephilim died out after the flood, ignoring the fact that David killed one of them 1365 years after the flood!
Sadly, it is this kind of self-righteous behavior that turns the cheek of the secular world away from Christ and towards other beliefs. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Sadly, it is this kind of self-righteous behavior that turns the cheek of the secular world away from Christ and towards other beliefs.
There will always be Pharisees around.... 
"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." (John 5:39,40).
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Do you want to wade in and provide us the scriptural answer as to why they are wrong or defend them if you believe that they are a legitimate technique to seek the spirit?
I see no need to defend the use of ouija boards because YOU are the only person talking about ouija boards.
I've stated in many posts, that the use of mediums was forbidden in scripture.
Now prove that praying to Jesus is using a medium and I'll believe you.
You have indeed said that the only way a technique in which people have a spiritual experience with the dead is though a medium. What if I want to have these spiritual experiences directly and not through a medium. It may be that seeking them through the medium is the sin, not the experience itself. Following your logic, the medium herself, because she is spiritually experiencing the dead directly, isn't doing anything wrong. If I teach and train people to become a medium and experience spirits dierectly, this may somehow be acceptable where if they went to a medium to contact spirits, this is forbidden.
What techniques does a medium or spiritist use to contact the spiritual dimension? Are the techniques that they use "neutral" and if Christians use them to sincerly call upon God with all their hearts He will meet them? After all if we ask Him for a fish He won't give us a stone, will He? If we sincerely seek him with a pure heart with the methods of Eastern religions, He will in no wise cast us out, will He?
Jesus IS the MEDIUM. He is the ONLY legal medium. He is the only legal path to the spiritual dimension to reach God. Techniques that we use to approach God and to increase our spiritual experiences to increase our faith and enhance our prayer are not prayer to Jesus.
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
Hebrews 9:11
But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things £to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
You have indeed said that the only way a technique in which people have a spiritual experience with the dead is though a medium.
No I didn't say "the only way a technique in which people have a spiritual experience with the dead is though a medium"!!!!
Why do you feel the need to construct a false argument from your opponent (a strawman) and then knock it down?
Jesus died to save people, by the way, not techniques.
quote:
1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
That's why most wrongful "spiritual experiences" in scripture involved mediums.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | nephilim, necromancy, mediums, ouija boards... don't you think your obession with occultic stuff is a little too much?
Philippians 4:
8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
Maybe you should change your obsession to some better things.
Like, try meditating on scripture and practicing some breathing techniques.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/22/2004 6:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Preach it, Sis.
Amen, Amen, Amen.
<><
.
Sisters of Cain wrote:
quote:
nephilim, necromancy, mediums, ouija boards... don't you think your obession with occultic stuff is a little too much?
Philippians 4:
8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
Maybe you should change your obsession to some better things.
Like, try meditating on scripture and practicing some breathing techniques.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/22/2004 6:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Morton Kelsey
Preparations for the Inward Journey
Aids in Practicing the Silence
Page 139
…controlled breathing may be almost as important for many people because it reinforces and deepens the stillness in one’s own body. Then there are several practices of Eastern religion that may be helpful. Because we are now more free to show an interest in the religious quest of other peoples, the East and the West have begun to share religious understanding and learn from one another.
Page 143
A friend who has been consistent in the practice of prayer for years told me of suddenly realizing that she had begun to breathe in exactly the way that is so often spoken of in Hindu circles. I happened just as she reached a new level of prayer, a level that is described in the charismatic movement as prayer in the Spirit or as being baptized in the Spirit. Researchers in brain activity have learned that this breathing pattern goes along with alpha and theta wave activity in the brain, which is characteristic of our mental state in meditation. Again, simply learning to breathe this way will often help a person to reach this state.
In Christian Zen, William Johnston, who has considered so wisely the similarities of Zen to Christianity, suggests the value of similar breathing techniques for modern Christians. One practice is to count slowly and rhythmically, “one,” inhale; “two,” exhale; “three,”…and so on, until a rhythm of breathing takes over. Once such a rhythm will start on its own, the practice of counting is usually dropped….
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 6:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Morton Kelsey
Preparations for the Inward Journey
Aids in Practicing the Silence
Page 139
…controlled breathing
Mrs. Spenlake, giving birth : "Inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale"
Spenlake : "STOP IT! THAT'S SATANIC!!!"
: <choke><gasp><cough><gag><choke><huff>.....
: "That's better"
 : "WE NEED SOME MORPHINE IN HERE. STAT!!!"
 : "For the patient?"
: "No, for the patient's husband."
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 7/22/2004 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Boyd Says:
Now grant it, I think the content of Spen's criticism are complete trash, the empty meanderings of a good mind sadly nfected with delusional self-serving religion. And grant it, I confess that this mindset feeds into the cynical view I've had to fight against fundamentalism. Its one of various reasons why I'm struggling now. Its certainly one of the reasons I limit my exposure to the board. But if I am in a place where I need to steer clear of religious poison, it is MY JOB to do it. It's not anyone else's job to pull back on their heart felt criticism to respect where I'm at.
THAT's the difference between virtual talk and reality. If someone came up to a person who was in a bad place and did what Spen does on the board, that would be grotesque. But on virtual chat rooms, its about ideas. So all is fair game.
All that is to say, I again appreciate the concern people have had for me. But on this one account, don't fault Spen. As truly as I think his basic mindset represents the antithesis of Kingdom thinking, I believe he is sincerely trying his best to stand for "the truth" and is not to blame for honestly sharing his thoughts, regardless of where I'm at personally, and regardless for how ill-conceived his criticism may be.
Barryatk:
This idea that common courtesies don't apply to virtual talk intrigues me. It reminds me of Amy Grant saying that not a single person got in her face about her divorce...but the printed words abounded with scathing criticism. I feel like I walk with many that have a spirit similar to Spen's- they feel compelled to help us all see truth like they do. I believe they are sincere and also proud. They seem to have a conviction that there is a huge trick being pulled on the Christian and only they are "in the know". I had a huge dose of this 15 years ago as I read Dave Hunt's "Seduction of Christianity". The techniques and persons desribed where ubiquitous in the church I attended.I went to the pastor, having just had my mind completely "blown away" and truly thinking I was likely in a cult and I'd probably have to get out fast. Of course, I didn't speak this plainly to my poor pastor, I know now what it feels like to deal with such clamor. He was gracious and pointed out that every great thing truly done by the Holy Spirit is hated by satan. So satan mocks, distorts, perverts, poorly copies, the true works and manifestations. I wasn't totally convinced, but I chose to stick around and run some of this by other respected leaders. To this day I grieve that I ever read that book. It turned me quickly against many authors that I have since begun to read and thouroughly enjoy. I do admire the fortitude that Spen and co. bring to the church. I also suspect that there are usually gaping holes in some places of their Christian walk. Could Spen bring to the table true disciples that he is helping to grow and prosper in the things of God? Does he have a fruitful witness and growing testimony to the sweet love and compassion of Christ and is it obvious in Spen's countenance?
In other words, besides being one to point out faults, are you also an encourager and prayer intercessor?
If so, you'd be one of the first 've ever known. It's hard to be harshly critical and also be softly spoken and spiritually compassionate.
Also the reaping from sowing the dissensions is bitter fruit.
Love and Peace in the Grace of the Holy Spirit!
Barry
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/22/2004 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Years later:
: "Spenlake Jr. choked on water and drowned while swimming!"
: "Well that's better than if he had used that Satanic controlled breathing."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/22/2004 7:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Barry writes,
"If so, you'd be one of the first 've ever known. It's hard to be harshly critical and also be softly spoken and spiritually compassionate."
I don't claim this for myself, Barry. Although, if you were interested, I could invite you to dinner in my home and you could "discern" me and the affect my attitudes and beliefs have had on my family. This would, of course, only be superficial and perhaps anybody could pass a single meal test. ( I am not kidding if you want to take me up in the offer, we can arrange it). Beyond your application to me, I can think of someone that meets your standard.
And Jesus called His disciples to Him, and said, “I feel compassion for the people, because they have remained with Me now three days and have nothing to eat; and I do not want to send them away hungry, for they might faint on the way.”
“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, and said, “You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? “Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time.” And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/22/2004 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Seems there are two realms of thought about the offering that Cain and Abel brought to the Lord.
Some say it was the technique (means used), a blood offering vs. the grain.
Some say it was the attitude of the offerer.
We have no recorded, that I know of, instructions that were given to them concerning how ( or even if ) they should make their offering to God. But, God's reaction indicated that the issue was Cain's attitude.
Which would you pick, and why ?
I say the offering means had nothing to do with it, God has several times told folks that He doesn't require a burnt offering, but a humble and contrite heart.
peace, don
2 thoughts. Could a himble and contrite heart be manifested in obedience to the means that God has given us to approach Him?
Hebrews 9:18
Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
The skins of covering that God gave to Adam and Eve to replace the fig leaves cost blood.
In Leviticus 10:1 I don't find that God was displeased at their attitudes.
Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the LORD spoke, saying,‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy, And before all the people I will be honored.’”
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/22/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Ann,
Jo-Ann says,
"Do I sound like I'm riding the fence here? If I do, it's because I believe that we need to be as open as possible to the Spirit, while being true to the Word. The lines get fuzzy...things are not as black and white as we would like to think (I think)."..." Meditation is a good thing. Transcendental is something else. I agree with Spen. We need to be very careful. The enemy is far more deceitful than we realize. He can make a good imitation look like the real thing."
WHY is transcendental meditation wrong to you and meditation is right. In your understanding, what is it about TM that is wrong. There are many brilliant authors, including Kelsey, that believe that it is an acceptable way to enhance prayer and experience God. What are your reasons for rejecting it? If, as Kelsey claims, he feels closer to God when approaching Him through TM, on what basis could you question him? Why couldn't TM be a facet of the meditation mentioned in the Bible?
Are all approaches and techniques that we consider occult an "imitation" of a legitimate technique that God has given to us. What is the original godly ouija, or tarrot, or crystal ball, or inquiring of the liver? I think that this concept is flawed and extremely weak when considered in a factual context.
Does God leave us with only a grey area in something so important as approaching Him and growing in grace? I think, based on your posts, that you somehow discern based upon a "feeling" as to whether the spirit you encounter is "good" or "bad." If it is true, what would an angel of light feel like to you. Could you feel one that was false? What if the site that POW posted on Eastern Religions is correct. Morton Kelsey, along with Richard Foster, states that their inner spiritual journey that they pursue in their imaginations may be extrememly dangerous due to the other hostile spiritual beings that exist there. They simply feel that the danger is worth it.
Spen,
Scriptural meditation to me, is meditating on the Word of God, spending time in prayer, with our hearts and thoughts centered on Him. As far as I know, TM is not about centering your heart or thoughts on Jesus Christ. Perhaps you know something that I am not aware of?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/22/2004 5:31 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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