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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/23/2004 1:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Sister of Cain: Like, try meditating on scripture and practicing some breathing techniques
AMEN!
Spen Lake, I'm wondering if you would benefit from rethinking some of your theology. I think you are shut inside a box with no windows. Perhaps it would be healthy for you to open a window and allow some fresh air inside instead of hiding from the world. Be cautious in throwing the baby out with the bath water by judging anything that doesn't line up with your matrix and your interpretation of the bible. Here are a couple things you may want to think about:
1.) The beautiful thing about breathing is that we ALL do it all the time. Didn't Jesus say "Pray without ceasing" -- maybe we can pray and breath simultaneously? Breathe in truth, breathe out lies. Breathe in love, breathe out hate. Breathe in acceptance, breathe out judgment... Breathing techniques in and of themselves are not bad nor sinful.
2.) We are to meditate on God's Word day and night. "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things" -- dwell (meditate) on these things. We are instructed to meditate -- I don't see this as a pagan idea. What we meditate on is important.
In Dr. Boyd's imaginative prayer exercise we are meditating on God's truth in order to become free from the bondage of the lies installed. We are reworking the memory to line up with God's love for us. We are breathing in truth and breathing out lies. We are breathing in God's acceptance and breathing out the worlds rejection/abuse. This type of exercise is very healing and brings about LIFE. Jesus came to give us LIFE and to the fullest!
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/23/2004 2:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
Sister of Cain: Like, try meditating on scripture and practicing some breathing techniques
AMEN!
Spen Lake, I'm wondering if you would benefit from rethinking some of your theology. I think you are shut inside a box with no windows. Perhaps it would be healthy for you to open a window and allow some fresh air inside instead of hiding from the world. Be cautious in throwing the baby out with the bath water by judging anything that doesn't line up with your matrix and your interpretation of the bible. Here are a couple things you may want to think about:
1.) The beautiful thing about breathing is that we ALL do it all the time. Didn't Jesus say "Pray without ceasing" -- maybe we can pray and breath simultaneously? Breathe in truth, breathe out lies. Breathe in love, breathe out hate. Breathe in acceptance, breathe out judgment... Breathing techniques in and of themselves are not bad nor sinful.
2.) We are to meditate on God's Word day and night. "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things" -- dwell (meditate) on these things. We are instructed to meditate -- I don't see this as a pagan idea. What we meditate on is important.
In Dr. Boyd's imaginative prayer exercise we are meditating on God's truth in order to become free from the bondage of the lies installed. We are reworking the memory to line up with God's love for us. We are breathing in truth and breathing out lies. We are breathing in God's acceptance and breathing out the worlds rejection/abuse. This type of exercise is very healing and brings about LIFE. Jesus came to give us LIFE and to the fullest!
Are all windows to God acceptable to find Him if I am seeking for him with a sincere heart. Are windows legal where a spiritual Jesus interacts with and brings "truth" to the dead legal? Does a "real" spiritual Jesus embrace the dead and myself together in a common spiritual experience to bring me healing? Is Christian Zen "legal?" While not advocating Eastern mysticism (apparently becasue that window isn't legal) what are westerners defficient in that we need to learn from Eastern religions? Why isn't a Christian ouija legal?
These are honest questions that I haven't seen answered in a strong or scriptural way. I am cautious about open windows that promise God and deliver something else that the men of Matthew 7:21 looked out of.
Spen Lake
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/23/2004 6:12 AM (GMT -6) | | .
LEGALISM:
Greetings, Spenlake:
Requiring others to jump though a zillion "Christian Litmus-test Hoops" is never-ending.
When one of your (bizarre) hoops collapses, you simply produce a new hoop;
a new test -- a new accusation.
Give it up, Spen.
.
.
.
Keith wrote:
quote:
Are all windows to God acceptable to find Him if I am seeking for him with a sincere heart.
Are windows legal where a spiritual Jesus interacts with and brings "truth" to the dead legal? Does a "real" spiritual Jesus embrace the dead and myself together in a common spiritual experience to bring me healing? Is Christian Zen "legal?" While not advocating Eastern mysticism (apparently becasue that window isn't legal) what are westerners defficient in that we need to learn from Eastern religions? Why isn't a Christian ouija legal?
.
On another thread, Keith also wrote:
quote:
.....The "many" were practicing lawlessness even while doing supernatural stuff in the name of Christ. There must be "sin" there as they were not known by their Lord and were damned. It seems that the sin itself was practicing lawlessness.
.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/23/2004 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | .
.
CAUTION:
RELIGIOUS "HOOP-JUMPING"
IS DANGEROUS TO YOUR HEALTH:
.
.
 .
.
.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/23/2004 6:41 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Spen:
Repeat after me:
"No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops. No more hoops..... "
When you can say this a sincere heart, you will have passed the
"Repenting of Religion" test.
Peace & blessings,
<><
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/23/2004 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Wrong spin.
No more LEGALISM.
No more ("man-made") hoops.
Spenlake wrote:
quote:
No more law, no more law, no more law....
.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/23/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | .Okay, Spen.
I get it.
Your psychologist gave you the diagnosis of "Moses-complex",
right??
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 7/23/2004 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Spen,
F.Y.I., not everyone who pronounces that they have THE "objective truth"
are realistic and/or objective.
Remember the Rev. Jim Jones?
Spen wrote:
quote:
God's hoops are still to be met and obeyed.
.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/23/2004 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
Sister of Cain: Like, try meditating on scripture and practicing some breathing techniques
AMEN!
Spen Lake, I'm wondering if you would benefit from rethinking some of your theology. I think you are shut inside a box with no windows. Perhaps it would be healthy for you to open a window and allow some fresh air inside instead of hiding from the world. Be cautious in throwing the baby out with the bath water by judging anything that doesn't line up with your matrix and your interpretation of the bible. Here are a couple things you may want to think about:
1.) The beautiful thing about breathing is that we ALL do it all the time. Didn't Jesus say "Pray without ceasing" -- maybe we can pray and breath simultaneously? Breathe in truth, breathe out lies. Breathe in love, breathe out hate. Breathe in acceptance, breathe out judgment... Breathing techniques in and of themselves are not bad nor sinful.
2.) We are to meditate on God's Word day and night. "Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things" -- dwell (meditate) on these things. We are instructed to meditate -- I don't see this as a pagan idea. What we meditate on is important.
In Dr. Boyd's imaginative prayer exercise we are meditating on God's truth in order to become free from the bondage of the lies installed. We are reworking the memory to line up with God's love for us. We are breathing in truth and breathing out lies. We are breathing in God's acceptance and breathing out the worlds rejection/abuse. This type of exercise is very healing and brings about LIFE. Jesus came to give us LIFE and to the fullest!
This is a beautiful post Quest. We should all do more of this. I think this speaks about what the "abundant life" that He came to offer us. He came that we might have joy, and that our joy would be made full (complete) in Him. Thanks Quest.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/23/2004 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
No more narrow gate, no more narrow gate, no more narrow gate...
No more law, no more law, no more law....
No more objective truth, no more objective truth, nor more objective truth...
We still rely on the narrow gate .......................... Jesus
We still rely of the demands of the law being met ... Jesus
We still have objective truth .............................. Jesus
All of these have been met in Jesus, and we work out our own salvation with fear (reverence) and trembling (humbleness) .
peace, don
Amen.
We still do.
God's hoops are still to be met and obeyed. Those who fail to do so will be damned, regardless of the miracles they do in Jesus' name.
God's hoops are a joy, man's are a yoke that is far too heavy for us to carry; a burden. We are saved by grace. We are kept by His grace, and one day we will see what grace looks like; face to face.
Ours is a faith righteousness, not a works righteousness. The law is to make us aware of our sin. Grace is the power to help us overcome sin. The law could not make anyone righteous.
Grace and peace Spen,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/23/2004 12:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Does a "real" spiritual Jesus embrace the dead and myself together in a common spiritual experience to bring me healing?
Spen, Dr. Boyd DID NOT claim to speak to his DEAD grandma. He DID NOT talk with the dead! What Greg did was rework a MEMORY by applying God's love and truth where Satan had come to steal, kill, and destroy.
Have you EVER used your imagination? I feel very sad for you if you have been living your life without this beautiful gift that God has given. Here's how it works. You think up something that you've seen before, oh, say a worm. Now, envision this worm growing beautifully colored wings on each side. Now you have created a butterfly. Butterflies represent freedom. Spen, you are FREE to use your imagination - it is NOT sin. You can use your imagination to dream up miracles, inventions, artistic wonders. You can also use your imagination to remember and reconstruct horrible events in your past. You are encouraged to invite Jesus into EVERY area of your life including your imagination. So, you CAN rework a memory and invite Jesus into this process in order to find some peace in the midst of that storm. This is what imaginative prayer is all about and the beauty of it all it is NOT sinful if you apply the Fruit of the Spirit in the process.
Allow Jesus to show you the way, the truth, and the life. Remember, Jesus told us, "My sheep hear my voice and follow me" You need not be afraid if you are his sheep -- you have the Holy Spirit to lead you to truth.
Go ahead, Spen. Be FREE and use the gift of imagination. Loose those ties that bind. Listen to the Master's voice not to the lie of legalism. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/23/2004 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
Does a "real" spiritual Jesus embrace the dead and myself together in a common spiritual experience to bring me healing?
Spen, Dr. Boyd DID NOT claim to speak to his DEAD grandma. He DID NOT talk with the dead! What Greg did was rework a MEMORY by applying God's love and truth where Satan had come to steal, kill, and destroy.
Have you EVER used your imagination? I feel very sad for you if you have been living your life without this beautiful gift that God has given. Here's how it works. You think up something that you've seen before, oh, say a worm. Now, envision this worm growing beautifully colored wings on each side. Now you have created a butterfly. Butterflies represent freedom. Spen, you are FREE to use your imagination - it is NOT sin. You can use your imagination to dream up miracles, inventions, artistic wonders. You can also use your imagination to remember and reconstruct horrible events in your past. You are encouraged to invite Jesus into EVERY area of your life including your imagination. So, you CAN rework a memory and invite Jesus into this process in order to find some peace in the midst of that storm. This is what imaginative prayer is all about and the beauty of it all it is NOT sinful if you apply the Fruit of the Spirit in the process.
Allow Jesus to show you the way, the truth, and the life. Remember, Jesus told us, "My sheep hear my voice and follow me" You need not be afraid if you are his sheep -- you have the Holy Spirit to lead you to truth.
Go ahead, Spen. Be FREE and use the gift of imagination. Loose those ties that bind. Listen to the Master's voice not to the lie of legalism.
Dr. Boyd claims in his book that the Holy Spirit inspired his imagination and brought Him the real Jesus to experience there. His experience was "resting in Christ." If his "Jesus" was just a product of his imagination and not God but his own delusion, fine. It may be no more than pretending one is Napoleon or speaking with Fred Flintstone. If, however, he claims his Jesus is an "inspired" spiritual experience with the real Jesus, then his inspired spiritual experience with his dead grandmother is ontologically the same. His Jesus and his grandmother converse and leave arm in arm together. I think that "pretending" to meet God and dead grandmothers is not a sin. It is also not "resting in Christ" but simply pretending. Claiming spirit inspired meetings with both Jesus and dead grandmothers crosses the line and is an action forbidden by the scriptures.
My concordance has only 3 entries in the entire Bible with the word "imagination."
Psalm 73:7
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
Proverbs 18:11
10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower;
The righteous runs into it and is safe.
11 A rich man’s wealth is his strong city,
And like a high wall in his own imagination.
Jeremiah 23:16
Thus says the LORD of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, not from the mouth of the LORD. “They keep saying to those who despise Me, ‘The LORD has said, “You will have peace”’;And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’
If Dr. Boyd wants to imagine something and call it his imaginations and not spiritual realities, fine. When he claims it is inspired and he meets the real Jesus, who happens to interact with the dead, this is problematic. Biblically, this is a vision of his own imagination and not from the mouth of the Lord.
Isaiah 8:9
should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/23/2004 11:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Dr. Boyd claims in his book that the Holy Spirit inspired his imagination and brought Him the real Jesus to experience there.
Spen, I am not sure what you are saying. The Holy Spirit and Jesus are living within the believer and inspiring the believer in their thoughts. Jesus is REAL. When I pray I am praying to a REAL God. Sometimes that prayer time is spent imagining myself sitting with Jesus while I am talking to him about life.... Sometimes I picture myself with Jesus going over past circumstances and applying truth to them and I know that Jesus is REAL and PRESENT to me during those times because as he said, "If a child asks for a piece of bread what father would give them a stone" "Ask and you shall receive" When we go over past circumstances sometimes I am able to redo a memory in a different way that brings about a happier/healthier outcome in order to change the way my brain remembers that memory. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/24/2004 3:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
Dr. Boyd claims in his book that the Holy Spirit inspired his imagination and brought Him the real Jesus to experience there.
Spen, I am not sure what you are saying. The Holy Spirit and Jesus are living within the believer and inspiring the believer in their thoughts. Jesus is REAL. When I pray I am praying to a REAL God. Sometimes that prayer time is spent imagining myself sitting with Jesus while I am talking to him about life.... Sometimes I picture myself with Jesus going over past circumstances and applying truth to them and I know that Jesus is REAL and PRESENT to me during those times because as he said, "If a child asks for a piece of bread what father would give them a stone" "Ask and you shall receive" When we go over past circumstances sometimes I am able to redo a memory in a different way that brings about a happier/healthier outcome in order to change the way my brain remembers that memory.
Quest,
Are there any qualifications in, "I know that Jesus is REAL and PRESENT to me during those times because as he said, "If a child asks for a piece of bread what father would give them a stone" "Ask and you shall receive" I believe that there are qualifications. If this Jesus came and told you to commit adultery for a ggod reason, I am sure that you would be suspicious that perhaps this wasn't the real Jesus speaking. In the same way, if this Jesus came and told you to consult with the dead the the Holy Spirit was going to bring to your imagination, you should also be suspicious. In the same way that God doesn't lead us into adultery because He forbids it in His Objective Truth, God doesn't lead us to consult the dead in our imaginations because "reworking a memory" isn't a valid excuse/exception in His objective Word.
I don't believe that the concept of "reworking memories through imaginary spritual experiences" is a scriptural concept. I know that we are called to "repent" and turn from our old ways. We are to embrace the repentance that leads to life. I see nowhere that "repenting" is "reworking memories." Philippians 3:13 doesn't call us to "rework" but to "forget" what lies behind us. "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained." This is a biblical approach to repenting. Psychology has tools that deal with memories and managing pain, but this shouldn't be called resting in Christ.
I did come across a verse today that dealt with a Christ in our imaginations, in some sense. The verse is Galatians 3:1.
"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
We see that Jesus was portrayed by Paul to them in a way that was real to their "eyes." The difference in this example is that Paul was portraying an actual historical event that is docmented concerning the real Jesus and the Galatians took comfort and found life there, receiving the Spirit. These are people who Peter speaks of in 1 Peter 1:8, "though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of £your faith the salvation of your souls." These people saw Jesus as crucified and, because they believed, they left the past behind. Paul speaks to the Galatians about leaving the slavery of the past in chapter 4, "However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?" There isn't much of about psychologically reworking memories as beleiving in the gospel and its power to carry us as we go forward. I am certain that Dr. Boyd believes that his techniques and methods are "ways" of repenting and forgetting. His example has him toing this in the company of his spiritual Jesus and his dead grandmother, who also repents (after her death) because of her interaction with the spiritual Jesus, Page 125, "'It's OK now, Grandma. Jesus fixed the hurt.' She slowly nodded her head and smiled as she replied, 'He fixed it for me too.' I ran to her , and she picked me up and gave me a big hug - something she never did in real life. And with this Jesus came over and hugged the teo of us together. We enjoyed this loving embrace for a very long time." How is it that the dead, in Dr. Boyd's spiritual experiences, are able to have their hurts healed by Jesus through some kind of post-death repenting. Doesn't this strike you as at least a little bit odd or too much?
The consultations and interactions with his dead grandmother in Dr. Boyd's imagination were of the same ontological nature as his interaction and consultations with Jesus. Either he played with a pretend Jesus of his own making and thus only consulted the dead of his own making OR the dead that he experienced in his imagaination were of the same "realness" as the Jesus he experienced there. If he found freedom in a Jesus of his own making, then this is a comforting delusion and not the gospel.
I don't doubt that the Holy Spirit lives within us. In as much as He is the Spirit of Christ Jesus, Jesus is also in us through His Spirit. The "real" Jesus as a person to "experience" however, is now bodily seated at the right hand of GOd and awaiting the time that He will return. Until He bodily returns we only experience Him through His Spirit.
Spen Lake
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