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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/19/2004 8:48 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Do we believe that Zen, Yoga, and Transcendental Meditation are acceptable means to access spiritual experiences with Jesus? It is claimed below that there is nothing dark and evil behind them. I guess that one would be considered "narrow" to question such openmindedness a renowned author and theologian. I still believe that it is dangerous and that all means to access spiritual experiences are not pleasing to God.
Doesn't anybody else think that perhaps, just maybe, this might not be lily white and the pure path to God?
quote:
There are various techniques for opening up the tight capsule of space and time. Zen and Yoga, paying attention to dreams, prayer, contemplation, meditation, and the use of biofeedback all can be helpful for some people in reaching stillness and opening themselves to new experiences within. What is important is to realize that there is a goal beyond this stillness, beyond the peace and relaxation, or beyond the interest in extrasensory perception. There is a real danger in much of Eastern thought and on our own scientific probing into the mind, but it is not because there is something dark and evil in either of them.
The danger lies in the fact that Eastern ways of prayer and scientific interest in altered states of consciousness do not go far enough. The road stops once the relaxation, the peace and detachment, or the extrasensory perception is achieved, and then one is left to wander….The way of avoiding this danger is suggested by the practice of one Trappist monastery in this country, where it was found that novices needed help in learning to become quiet. Training in Transcendental Meditation was chosen to offer them this help. TM was used, however, not to replace biblical meditation or any of the ordinary services, but in addition to them….Any of the techniques that are available can be used in this way so that Christian meditation can then become an effective means to open one to the influence of Divine Love.
Page 152
Morton Kelsey
Teaching the Silence
Preparation for the Inward Journey
Aids in the Practice of Silence
"Throughout his works Morton Kelsey is most insightful on the more general theme of how our modern secular culture has conditioned people to be closed to spiritual reality."
Greg Boyd
Seeing is Believing
Page 216
"Multitudes of others have found resting in Christ to be the most foundational and powerful form of prayer. Renowned author and theologian Morton Kelsey testifies to its transforming power in his own life when he writes….”it is out of these encounters that most of my growth in understanding and personality have come.”…Imaginative prayer is so transforming, because as Kelsey notes, it gives us ‘a way of thinking that brings us closer to actual experiences of the spiritual world than any other concept or merely verbal idea about that realm.’ Because our re-presentations are concrete and experiential, they are transforming in a way that abstract ideas by themselves can’t be. They impact us at a level that is more profound than that of merely intellectual concepts. Kelsey writes, ‘When prayer and meditation concentrate only on concepts, they do not touch the most profound part of our being…Conceptual thought does not have the same power as the ability to think in images.’ My own experience and fifteen years of leading “Experiencing Jesus” seminars confirm Kelsey’s conviction."
Greg Boyd
Seeing is Believing
Page 103
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/19/2004 9:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Do we believe that Zen, Yoga, and Transcendental Meditation are acceptable means to access spiritual experiences with Jesus? It is claimed below that there is nothing dark and evil behind them. I guess that one would be considered "narrow" to question such openmindedness a renowned author and theologian. I still believe that it is dangerous and that all means to access spiritual experiences are not pleasing to God.
Doesn't anybody else think that perhaps, just maybe, this might not be lily white and the pure path to God?
quote:
There are various techniques for opening up the tight capsule of space and time. Zen and Yoga, paying attention to dreams, prayer, contemplation, meditation, and the use of biofeedback all can be helpful for some people in reaching stillness and opening themselves to new experiences within. What is important is to realize that there is a goal beyond this stillness, beyond the peace and relaxation, or beyond the interest in extrasensory perception. There is a real danger in much of Eastern thought and on our own scientific probing into the mind, but it is not because there is something dark and evil in either of them.
The danger lies in the fact that Eastern ways of prayer and scientific interest in altered states of consciousness do not go far enough. The road stops once the relaxation, the peace and detachment, or the extrasensory perception is achieved, and then one is left to wander….The way of avoiding this danger is suggested by the practice of one Trappist monastery in this country, where it was found that novices needed help in learning to become quiet. Training in Transcendental Meditation was chosen to offer them this help. TM was used, however, not to replace biblical meditation or any of the ordinary services, but in addition to them….Any of the techniques that are available can be used in this way so that Christian meditation can then become an effective means to open one to the influence of Divine Love.
Page 152
Morton Kelsey
Teaching the Silence
Preparation for the Inward Journey
Aids in the Practice of Silence
"Throughout his works Morton Kelsey is most insightful on the more general theme of how our modern secular culture has conditioned people to be closed to spiritual reality."
Greg Boyd
Seeing is Believing
Page 216
"Multitudes of others have found resting in Christ to be the most foundational and powerful form of prayer. Renowned author and theologian Morton Kelsey testifies to its transforming power in his own life when he writes….”it is out of these encounters that most of my growth in understanding and personality have come.”…Imaginative prayer is so transforming, because as Kelsey notes, it gives us ‘a way of thinking that brings us closer to actual experiences of the spiritual world than any other concept or merely verbal idea about that realm.’ Because our re-presentations are concrete and experiential, they are transforming in a way that abstract ideas by themselves can’t be. They impact us at a level that is more profound than that of merely intellectual concepts. Kelsey writes, ‘When prayer and meditation concentrate only on concepts, they do not touch the most profound part of our being…Conceptual thought does not have the same power as the ability to think in images.’ My own experience and fifteen years of leading “Experiencing Jesus” seminars confirm Kelsey’s conviction."
Greg Boyd
Seeing is Believing
Page 103
Spen,
Ever heard of the expression: "throwing the baby out with the bath water"? That seems to be what you are doing here. This is beginning to look like a "smudge campaign". Let me ask you Spen, "Where is grace in all of this?"
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Armchair Theologian
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2004
Total Posts : 43
| Posted 7/19/2004 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Keith, when are you going to repent of your calvinism?
"Calvin's Reign of Terror
After some negotiation, Ami Perrin, commissioner for Geneva, persuaded Calvin to return. He did so, though unwillingly, on September 13, 1541. His entry was modest. Geneva was a church-city-state of 15,000 people, and the church constitution now recognized "pastors, doctors, elders and deacons," but the supreme power was given to the magistrate, John Calvin. In November 1552, the Council declared Calvin's Institutes to be a "holy doctrine which no man might speak against." Thus the State issued dogmatic decrees, the force of which had been anticipated earlier, as when Jacques Gruet, a known opponent of Calvin, was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547, for placing a letter in Calvin's pulpit calling him a hypocrite. Gruet's book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch. Gruet's death was more highly criticized by far than the banishment of Castellio or the penalties inflicted on Bolsec -- moderate men opposed to extreme views in discipline and doctrine, who fell under suspicion as reactionary. Calvin did not shrink from his self-appointed task. Within five years fifty-eight sentences of death and seventy-six of exile, besides numerous committals of the most eminent citizens to prison, took place in Geneva. The iron yoke could not be shaken off. In 1555, under Ami Perrin, a revolt was attempted. No blood was shed, but Perrin lost the day, and Calvin's theocracy triumphed. John Calvin had secured his grip on Geneva by defeating the very man, Ami Perrin, commissioner of Geneva, who had invited him there.
Calvin forced the citizens of Geneva to attend church services under a heavy threat of punishment. Since Calvinism falsely teaches that God forces the elect to believe, it is no wonder that Calvin thought he could also force the citizens of Geneva to all become the elect. Not becoming one of the elect was punishable by death or expulsion from Geneva. Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva because that is what his theology teaches.
Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, a physician, a scientist and a Bible scholar was born in Villanova in 1511. He was credited with the discovery of the pulmonary circulation of the blood from the right chamber of the heart through the lungs and back to the left chamber of the heart. He was Calvin's longtime friend in their earlier resistance against the Roman Catholic Church. Servetus, while living in Vienne (historic city in southeastern France), angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's writings, Institutes, with critical comments in the margins. Servetus was arrested by the Roman Catholic Authorities on April 4 but escaped on April 7, 1553. He traveled to Geneva where he attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on August 13. Calvin promptly had Servetus arrested and charged with heresy for his disagreement with Calvin's theology. The thirty-eight official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus was correct in challenging Calvin's false teaching about infant baptism leading to salvation, but he was heretical in his rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method. Other Protestant churches throughout Switzerland advised Calvin that Servetus be condemned but not executed. Calvin ignored their pleas and Servetus was burned at the stake on October 27, 1553. Servetus was screaming as he was literally baked alive from the feet upward and suffered the heat of the flames for 30 minutes before finally succumbing to one of the most painful and brutal death methods possible. Servetus had written a theology book, a copy of which Calvin had strapped to the chest of Servetus. The flames from the burning book rose against Servetus' face as he screamed in agony.
John Calvin was proud of his killing of Servetus, bragging and celebrating. Many theological and state leaders criticized Calvin for the unwarranted killing of Servetus, but it fell on deaf ears as Calvin advised others to do the same. Calvin wrote much in following years in a continual attempt to justify his burning of Servetus. Some people claim Calvin favored beheading, but this does not fit charges of heresy for which the punishment as written by Calvin earlier was to be burning at the stake. Calvin had made a vow years earlier that Servetus would never leave Geneva alive if he were ever captured, and Calvin held true to his pledge.
Another victim of Calvin's fiery zeal was Gentile of an Italian sect in Geneva, which also numbered among its adherents Alciati and Gribaldo. More or less Unitarian in their views, they were required to sign a confession drawn up by Calvin in 1558. Gentile signed it reluctantly, but in the upshot he was condemned and imprisoned as a perjurer. He escaped only to be twice incarcerated at Berne where, in 1566, he was beheaded. Calvin also had twenty women burned at the stake after accusing them of causing a plague that had swept through Geneva in 1545.
The citizens of Geneva hated John Calvin as he clearly stated. In 1554 Calvin wrote "Dogs bark at me on all sides. Everywhere I am saluted with the name of 'heretic,' and all the calumnies that can possibly be invented are heaped upon me; in a word, the enemies among my own flock attack me with greater bitterness than my declared enemies among the papists." Calvin, quoted in Schaff, History, volume 8, page 496.
John Calvin had no love, no compassion, no patience and no tolerance for those who did not believe his Institutes. Criticism of Calvin's Institutes was considered heresy for which the sentence was death by burning at the stake. To his dying day Calvin preached and taught from his works. By no means an aged man, he was worn out in these frequent controversies. On April 25, 1564, he made his will, leaving 225 French crowns, of which he bequeathed ten to his college, ten to the poor, and the remainder to his nephews and nieces. His last letter was addressed to Farel. He was buried without pomp in a spot which is not now ascertainable. In the year 1900 a monument of expiation was erected to Servetus in the Place Champel. Geneva has long since ceased to be the head of Calvinism.
John Calvin's murder of people who held different doctrinal views, his failure to acknowledge or repent from his sins, his incomplete gospel, his placing of his own writings above the Bible, his distortion of God and the Scriptures, and his dependence upon infant baptism places into question his salvation. In all of his writings is not found a clear declaration of his salvation by faith in the birth, life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. Calvin was a cruel, murderous, tyrant who considered himself to be the pope of Geneva. The Bible never advocates harming an individual due to his unbelief or lack of understanding. Jesus taught to "turn the other cheek" instead. None of the Apostles taught action against unbelievers but instead taught the believer to seek them out to present the gospel in love.
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
John Calvin showed no signs of being a regenerate man. He became more murderous and cruel during his rule in Geneva. He showed no inclination to be conformed to the image of Christ as described in Scripture for those who have been saved. Notice Romans 8:29 below says we are "predestined to be conformed to His Son" and does not say we are predestined to be saved as taught by Calvin.
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to] [be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
One should not have to study the works of John Calvin but should study his life first in order to arrive at the conclusion that he was an ungodly man who could only produce a distorted doctrine that opposes the true teachings of Scripture. Calvin's actions were directly opposed to the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles.
Matthew 10:14 "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet."
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
"The LORD said to her,
'Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body'" | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake's experience is different than most of ours.
Churchs that don't pray don't add believers or grow...
they shrink and try to hang on to those few remaining people through the spread of hate and fear, conceitedly thinking themselves self appointed "prophets".
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 7/19/2004 9:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Perhaps this will be helpful, for those who want to understand more about how Christianity adopted paganistic forms of meditation and prayer calling them Christian. As the Article progresses it will show who Christianity had adopted forms of Eastern mystical relgions.
PHILIP MAURO,
COUNSELOR-AT-LAW, NEW YORK CITY
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after (according to) the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and ye are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power." Colossians 2:8-10.
In the foregoing passage occurs the only mention which the Scriptures make of philosophy. Nothing is more highly esteemed among men than philosophy. It is on all hands regarded as the supreme exercise and occupation of the human mind, and is indeed an occupation for which but very few men have the requisite intellectual equipment. As far back as the tradition of men goes, philosophy has held this high place in human estimation; and it is, therefore, a fact of much significance that, in all the Bible, philosophy is but once named.
Even in our day the deference paid to philosophy is such that there are not many teachers of the Bible who would venture to warn their fellow-men of its dangers; for philosophers have managed to maintain in Christendom the same eminence which they occupied in heathendom. Indeed, a course in philosophy is now, and for some generations has been, considered an essential part of the education of a man who is preparing for the Christian ministry; and this is not the only one of the "rudiments of the world" which has found its way into our theological seminaries. It is, therefore, not surprising that, in the teaching imparted by these seminary graduates, philosophy holds a very different place from that assigned to it by the Bible.
NOT A HUMAN UTTERANCE
We may be very sure, then, that the passage quoted above is not a human utterance. It does not express man’s estimate of philosophy — far from it. In pronouncing that warning Paul is not repeating what he learned while pursuing his course in philosophy at the school of Gamaliel. No man would ever have coupled philosophy with vain deceit, or characterized it as a dangerous process against which God’s people should be cautioned, lest thereby they should be despoiled of their possessions. No man ever defined philosophy as being according to human tradition and the basic principles of this evil world, and not according to Christ. This warning is from God Himself; but, alas, like many other of His solemn warnings, it has been despised and utterly disregarded. The thing against which this earnest warning was spoken has been welcomed with open arms, and incorporated into the theological machinery of our ecclesiastical systems. The consequences of this contemptuous disregard of God’s warning are such as might have been expected.
This word "beware" (sometimes rendered "take heed" in our version) does not occur very often in the New Testament. There are not many things whereof believers are bidden to "beware." Some of these are "the scribes," "dogs," "evil-workers," "the concision," and an "evil heart of unbelief" Mark 12:38; Philippians 3:2; Acts 13:40; Hebrews 3:12.
The warning of our text is addressed to believers who have been instructed as to their oneness with Christ in His death (at the hands of the world), His burial, and His resurrection. Additional emphasis is given to the warning by the connection in which it occurs. The word rendered "spoil" signifies literally to make a prey of, as when one falls into the hands of robbers and is stripped by violence of his goods, or into the hands of smooth-tongued and plausible swindlers who gain his confidence, and by means of their arts fleece him of his valuables. It is heavenly treasure that is in contemplation here, even the believer’s portion of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Hence empty deceit is contrasted with the fullness of the Godhead which dwells in Christ; and the despoiled condition of one who has been victimized through philosophy is contrasted with the enrichment of those who have apprehended by faith their completeness in Him who is the Head of all principality and power.
But why, we may profitably inquire, is philosophy described as an instrument of spoliation in the hands of artful men? And why is it characterized as being after (i.e., according to) the rudiments, or basic principles, of the world? The word rendered "rudiments" occurs four times in Scripture. In Colossians 2:20 it is again rendered "rudiments." In Galatians 4:3 and 9 it is rendered "elements." It seems to convey the idea of basic or foundation principles of the world-system. These elements are described in Galatians 4:9 as "weak and beggarly." They do not strengthen and enrich, but weaken and impoverish those who resort to them.
PHILOSOPHY DEFINED
The reason is perceived, in a general way at least, when we ascertain what philosophy is, namely, the occupation of attempting to devise, by the exercise of the human reason, an explanation of the universe. It is an interminable occupation for the reason that, if the explanation which philosophy is forever seeking were to be found, that discovery would be the end of philosophy. The occupation of the philosopher would be gone.
It is interminable for the stronger reason that the philosopher is bound, by the rules of his profession, to employ in his quest only human wisdom, and it is written that the world, by its wisdom, does not come to the knowledge of God 1 Corinthians 1:19-21; 2:14. Incidentally, a large part of the time of the philosopher is occupied in criticizing and demonstrating the unreasonableness or absurdity of all philosophical systems except that espoused by himself. This, however, is merely the destructive part of his work, the constructive part being, as has been said, the employment of his reasoning faculties in the task of devising a system which will account, after a fashion, for the existence and origin of, and for the changes which appear to take place in, the visible universe. Having settled upon such a system, the philosopher must thenceforth defend it from the attacks of philosophers of opposing "Schools" (who will put forth weighty volumes demonstrating to their entire satisfaction that his philosophical system is a tissue of absurdities), and in replying to their many and various objections and criticisms.
"NOT ACCORDING TO CHRIST."
We may thus see at a glance that philosophy is, in its essential character, in accordance with human tradition and the fundamental or primary principles of the world-system; and that it is not according to Christ, who is hated by the world, and who has laid the axe at the root of all its principles.
Prominent among the elements of the world and of human tradition is the principle that the world reflects the grandeur of man, and that human reason is the highest and mightiest factor in it. In our day it has become a tenet of popular theology that the human reason is the final court of appeal in all matters of doctrine. In man’s world human achievement is exalted to the highest place, and no limit is set to what may be accomplished by human ingenuity.
"Let us build us a city and a tower whose top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name" Genesis 11:4, is the program of humanity, as announced by those who established the basic principles of the world. In the great world-system that only is valued and lauded which is attained by the effort of man and redounds to his credit. Philosophy adheres strictly to this tradition and to these principles in that its various explanations, in order to receive recognition as "philosophical," must be purely the products of human reason exercised upon the results of human investigations.
PHILOSOPHY VS. REVELATION
It follows of necessity that philosophy and divine revelation are utterly irreconcilable. The very existence of philosophy as an occupation for the human mind depends upon the rigid exclusion of every explanation of the universe which is not reached by a speculative process. If a philosophy admits the existence of a God (as the philosophies just now in favor do), it is a god who either is dumb, or else is not permitted to tell anything about himself, or how he made and sustains the universe. Should the philosopher’s god break through these restrictions, there would be straightway an end of his philosophy. For it is not the pursuit of truth that makes one a philosopher. The pursuit of truth, in order to be philosophical, must be conducted in directions in which truth cannot possibly be found.
For the discovery of what philosophers pretend to be seeking would bring their philosophies to an end, and such a calamity must, of course, be avoided. Therefore, the moment one receives an explanation of the universe as coming from God who made it, he can have no further use for philosophy. One who has obtained the truth is no longer a seeker. The value of philosophy, therefore, lies not in its results, for there are none, but solely in the employment which its unverifiable speculations afford to those whose tastes and intellectual endowments qualify them to engage in it.
PHILOSOPHY VS. CHRIST
Again, philosophy is "not according to Christ" for the simple and sufficient reason that the testimony of Christ puts an end, for all who accept it, to all philosophical speculations concerning the relations of humanity to God and to the universe, Christ set His seal to the truth and divine authority of the Old Testament Scriptures. He, moreover, revealed the Father; and finally He promised further revelations of truth through His apostles under the immediate teaching of the Holy Spirit. These revelations are not only directly opposed to philosophical speculations, but they cut the ground from under them. The testimony and teaching of Christ were not communicated to men for the purpose of informing them how man and the world came to be what they are — though they do reveal the truth as to that. The purpose of the doctrine of Christ and of His personal mission to the world was to show to men their true condition, as under the dominion of sin and death, and to accomplish eternal redemption for all who believethe good tidings and accept the gift of God’s grace. The doctrine of Christ not only instructs men as to the way into the kingdom of God, but also entitles those who accept it to the immediate possession and enjoyment of many and valuable rights and privileges which can be acquired in no other way. If, therefore, you are a believer in Christ Jesus, trusting the merit of His sacrifice for your acceptance with God, beware lest any man despoil you of these inestimable rights and privileges through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him, and not elsewhere, dwells the fulness of the Godhead; and in Him, and not elsewhere, the believer may be filled to his utmost capacity. Philosophy can strip men of part of the inheritance of faith. It has nothing to offer them in exchange.
FRUITS OF PHILOSOPHY
It would be quite possible, for one who had the requisite leisure and curiosity, to trace the main developments of philosophy, and to examine the many different "Schools" to which it has given rise during a period of several thousand years. Having done so, he would find that philosophy consists, as already said, in the pursuit of the unattainable, and that, among all the varied fields of human activity there is none which has witnessed such an absolutely futile and barren expenditure of energy as the field of speculative philosophy. A philosopher of repute at the present time has declared that "philosophy has been on a false scent ever since the days of Socrates and Plato." The following of a false scent for more than two thousand years is surely not a record to boast of; and yet it is true that, so far as results are concerned, philosophy has nothing more encouraging than this to offer as an inducement for engaging in it.
We do not, however, propose anything so stupendous (and so unprofitable) as a review of the history of philosophy, but merely a brief statement setting forth the status of philosophy at the present day. And this we undertake in order that the non-philosophical reader may be able to ascertain the character of the influence which philosophy is exerting, in these times of change and mental unrest, upon the immediate problems of humanity, and upon what is called "the progress of human thought."
The great majority of men do no thinking beyond the matters which lie within the little circle of their personal interests. This unthinking majority takes its thoughts and opinions from an intellectual and cultured few, or from leaders who manage to gain their confidence. It is important, therefore, to ascertain what ideas are prevalent among those who are in a position to influence the opinions of the mass of mankind. This may easily be done by sampling the current philosophical teaching at the great universities of the English-speaking countries.
THEISTIC AND ATHEISTIC PHILOSOPHY
The various schools of philosophy which have flourished through the ages may be divided into two main classes, namely, theistic and atheistic. The former class embraces all philosophic systems which assume a god of some sort as the originator and sustainer of the universe. It may be remarked in passing that theistic philosophies are more dangerous to humankind than the atheistic class, for the reason that the former are well calculated to ensnare those who, by nature or training, have a repugnance to atheism. We need pay no attention to atheistic philosophy, for the reason that it is quite out of favor at the present day, and shows no sign of ever recovering a respectable status.
DUALISM AND PANTHEISM
Confining our attention, therefore, to theistic philosophies, we find several classes of these, namely, "Dualistic" and "Pantheistic." Dualism is the name which philosophers have been pleased to bestow upon those systems which maintain that God (or the "First Cause") created the universe as an act of His will, and has an existence distinct and apart from it. These systems are called "dualistic" because they count God as one entity, and the universe or creation as another entity, thus making two entities. The reader should understand clearly that when a learned professor of philosophy speaks of "dualism" he has Christianity in mind.
MONISM AND PLURALISM
Pantheism, on the other hand, maintains that God and the universe are one being. There are several varieties of pantheism which have followers among living philosophers, e. g., monism and pluralism. Monism is that variety of pantheism which is most in favor at the present day. This system assumes as the basis of reality an "absolute" or "all-knower" — a monstrosity which comprehends in its vast being all things and all their relations and activities. Monism, therefore, asserts that there is but one entity. God has no existence apart from the universe, and never had. The latter is, therefore, eternal, and there has been no creation.
It is a remarkable and highly significant fact that the basic principle of this ruling philosophy of our day is also the basic principle of the rapidly rising religio-economic system of socialism. For socialism is grounded upon the proposition that man is organically and essentially one with God and with the universe. From this strange agreement — this strange meeting of extremes far-reaching results may be expected.
THE PRESENT SITUATION
In order to obtain for our consideration a fair and accurate statement of the position of present-day philosophy, reference will be made to the "Hibbert Lectures" of 1909, on "The Present Situation in Philosophy," delivered by Professor William James, of Harvard University, at Manchester College, Oxford. These lectures have been published in a volume entitled "A Pluralistic Universe" (Longmans, Green & Co.).
Professor James is one of the very few philosophers of note who reject the teaching of monism. He advocates a theory styled "Pluralism," of which a sufficient idea may be gained from the quotations to follow. It is of first importance to us to learn from Professor James what is the present status of dualism, since, as we have seen, that class embraces old-fashioned or Bible Christianity. As to this, he says:
"Dualistic theism is professed as firmly as ever at all Catholic seats of learning, whereas it has of late years tended to disappear at our British and American Universities, and be replaced by a monistic pantheism more or less open or disguised" (page 24).
According to this competent authority, the Roman Catholic colleges are the only ones of any consequence wherein the statements of the Bible regarding the creation and government of the universe, the origin of living creatures, including man, the origin of evil, etc., are even "professed." The great universities of, England and America, which were founded for the purpose of maintaining the doctrines of Scriptures, and spreading knowledge of them as the revelations of the living God, and as the foundations of all true learning, have been despoiled of all that made them useful for the nurture of young minds, and that made them valuable to the communities wherein they have flourished; and this momentous change has been accomplished through the agency of philosophy and vain deceit, according to the ancient tradition of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ.
A STRANGE PHENOMENON
Herein, as it seems to the writer, we have an explanation for the strange phenomenon that Romanism is gaining ground rapidly in Protestant England and America, while steadily losing influence in those countries where it has had almost exclusive sway over the consciences of the people.
The latter countries have never enjoyed the privileges of the open Bible. They have never had any links attaching them to the living Word of God. All they have had is "the church," and that they are now judging by its fruits.
But in England and America it is far otherwise. For many generations, from father to son, the people have been knit by many strong and tender ties and associations to the Word of the living God. Its influences upon the customs and life of the people have been many and potent. Only those whose minds are blinded will deny the mighty influence which the Bible has exerted as a factor in the national prosperity of the English-speaking countries. The great universities have been their pride, and have been counted among the national bulwarks; and the Bible has been the foundation stone of the universities. But now a change has come — so swiftly and so stealthily that we can scarcely realize what has happened. The universities have discarded the teaching of the Bible, and have repudiated its authority as the divinely inspired teacher. Only at "Catholic seats of learning" is its teaching professed. What wonder, then, in a time of general disintegration and unrest, that the children of Bible-loving ancestors should be drawn by thousands to a system which has the appearance of stability, where all else is falling to pieces, and which, with all its errors, does proclaim the infallibility of the Holy Scriptures! Whoso is wise will consider these things.
A SUDDEN CHANGE
Professor James, in his lectures at Manchester, treats the teaching of the Bible as being now so utterly discredited and out of date as to call for only a brief, passing reference in a discussion purporting to deal with "the present situation in philosophy." He says:
"I shall leave cynical materialism entirely out of our discussion as not calling for treatment before this present audience, and I shall ignore old-fashioned dualistic theism for the same reason" (page 30).
It is also important for Our purpose to note the suddenness of the great change which has taken place at our universities, whereby Christian doctrine has been relegated to a position of obscurity so profound that it calls for no consideration in a discussion of this sort. The lecturer, after remarking that he had been told by Hindu's that "the great obstacle to the spread of Christianity in their country was the puerility of our dogma of creation," added: "Assuredly, most members of this audience are ready to side with Hinduism in this matter." And then he proceeded to say that "those of us who are sexagenarians" have witnessed such changes as "make the thought of a past generation seem as foreign to its successor as if it were the expression of a different race of men. The theological machinery that spoke so livingly to our ancestors, with its finite age of the world, its creation out of nothing, its juridical morality and eschatology, its treatment of God as an external contriver, an intelligent and moral governor, sounds as odd to most of us as if it were some outlandish savage religion" (page 29).
ITS SIGNIFICANCE
Let the reader not fail to grasp the significance of the statement. For hundreds of years the instruction imparted to the youths of England and America has been grounded upon the Scriptures as the oracles of God; and, in fact, the work of teaching has been carried on mainly by ministers of the Word. The positions which England and America have gained among the nations during those centuries is known to every one. God has greatly blessed them with national prosperity and world-wide dominion.
But now, we are told (and it is true), that within a single generation the framework of our educational systems has been so changed that the language which expressed the abiding convictions of our ancestors sounds as strange in the atmosphere of our great universities as the language of a "different race of men," uttering the formulas of some "outlandish savage religion." Whether the change is for the better or for the worse is not, for the moment, in question. What we wish to impress upon our readers’ minds at this point is simply the fact that a tremendous change has taken place, with amazing suddenness, and in regard to matters that are of vital importance to the whole world, and particularly to the English-speaking people.
EFFECT UPON PLASTIC MINDS
The effect upon the plastic minds of undergraduates of such words as those last quoted can easily be imagined. They artfully convey the suggestion that these young men are, in respect of their philosophical notions, vastly superior to the men of light and learning of past generations, and that it is by the repudiation of Christianity and its "lively oracles" that they furnish convincing proof of their intellectual superiority. There are few minds among men of the age here addressed, or of any age except they be firmly grounded and established in the truth — which could resist the insidious influence of such an appeal to the innate vanity of men.
Such being then the influences to which the students at our universities are now exposed, is there not urgent need of impressing upon Christian parents (there are yet a few remaining) the warning of our text, and exhorting them to beware lest their children be despoiled through philosophy and empty deceit?
A GREAT PERIL
What does this sudden and stupendous change portend? Is not the very existence of Christianized civilization (i.e., the social system which has been reared under the influence and protection of Christianity) imperiled by it? Beyond all doubt it is. Nor is our reasonable apprehension in this regard in any wise allayed by Professor James’ statements that the principal factors of this change are "scientific evolutionism" and "the rising tide of social democratic ideals." Great is the mischief already accomplished by these mighty agencies of evil, and we are as yet but at the beginning of their destructive career.
One more word Professor James speaks on this point: "An external creator and his institutions may still be verbally confessed at Church in formulas that linger by their mere inertia, but the life is out of them" (page 34).
And with this agree the words of the risen Christ to the church in its Sardis stage,
"Thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain that are ready to die" Revelation 3:1,2.
BUDDHA OR CHRIST?
It is now in order to inspect briefly that system of philosophy which, in its several forms, has crowded out of our universities the doctrine of Christ (and which has incidentally made Him a liar). We have already stated that this reigning system, now holding almost undisputed sway in "Christian" England and America, is pantheism, which has flourished for thousands of years as the philosophical religious cult of India. We have seen how Professor James defers to the Hindu estimate of the Bible doctrine of creation, and sides with it. If the test of a doctrine is the way it is regarded by the Hindu's, it is quite logical to go to them for the interpretation of the universe which is to be taught at our schools and colleges.
The philosophers of today have, therefore, nothing to offer to us that our ancestors did not understand as well as they, and that they were not as free to choose as we are. Did our ancestors then prefer the worse thing to the better when they chose, and founded great universities to preserve, the doctrines taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles, rather than (as they might have done) the doctrines associated with the name of Buddha? Our present-day teachers of philosophy appear to say so. But if there remains any judgment at all in the twentieth-century man, he will remember, before lightly acquiescing in the removal of the ancient foundations, that whatever there may be of superiority in the social order of Christianized England and America over that of pantheistic India is due to the choice which our forefathers made when they accepted the teaching of the Gospel of Christ, and to the fact that every subsequent generation until the present has ratified and adhered firmly to that choice.
WHAT BENEFIT?
What benefit, then, can any sane man expect as the result of this sudden and wholesale repudiation of teachings which are vital to Christianity, and the acceptance in their stead of the ancient doctrines of heathendom?
Surely there never was a generation of men so unwise, so blinded by its own conceit, as this foolish generation, in thus casting away the guidance of that Book which has put England and America at the head of the nations, and which has been the source of everything that is commendable in so-called "civilized society," and in accepting in its place the brutalizing and degrading doctrines of pantheism.
In whatever our eyes can rest upon with satisfaction in our past history or our present institutions, our art, literature, ethics, standards of family life and national life, etc., etc., we see the evidences of the influence of those teachings which have now been discarded by the wise men of our day as "puerile" in comparison with those of heathen philosophy. How long will it be before the righteous judgment of God overtakes the peoples who have thus turned with contempt from the source of all their greatness?
The warning, therefore, should be sounded out, not only to the young men and women who are likely to be the dire? victims of the "higher education" of the day, but to every dweller in civilized lands, to Beware lest any man make a prey of them through philosophy and vain deceit. For the matter we are considering vitally affects the interests of every civilized community.
NATIONAL RESPONSIBILITY
From the Bible and from secular history we learn that God deals not only with individuals on the ground of privilege and responsibility, but with nations also. Because of the extraordinary privileges granted to the Israelites, a heavier responsibility rested upon them than upon other nations, and they were visited for their unfaithfulness with corresponding severity. And now we are living in that long stretch of centuries known as "the times of the Gentiles," during which the natural branches of the olive tree (Israel) are broken off, and the branches of the wild olive tree are grafted into their place; that is to say, the period wherein the Gentiles are occupying temporarily Israel’s place of special privilege and responsibility. The diminishing of them has become the riches of the Gentiles Romans 11:11-25.
In dealing with a nation God looks to its rulers or leaders as responsible for its actions. The justice of this is specially evident in countries where the people choose their own rulers and governors. In our day the people are all-powerful. Rulers are chosen for the express purpose of executing the popular will. Likewise also the time has come when the people not only elect their rulers, but also heap to themselves teachers, because they will not endure sound doctrine 2 Timothy 4:3,4. We may be sure, then, that the persons we find in the professional chairs of our colleges are there by the mandate of the people, who have turned away their ears from the truth and give heed to fables which please their itching ears.
By the very constitution of a democratic social order the teachers must teach what the people like to hear, or else give place to those who will. God will surely judge the privileged nations for this. The change has been great and sudden. The judgment will be swift and severe. Until our day, whatever may have been the moral state of the masses of people of England and America, governments were established on the foundations of Christian doctrine; kings and other rulers were sworn to defend the faith; the Bible was taught in the schools; and no one was regarded as fit for a position of public responsibility who was not a professed follower of Jesus Christ. As for the teachers in our schools and colleges, not one could have been found who did not hold and teach as the unchanging truth of God the doctrines of Bible Christianity.
A GREAT APOSTASY
Recognizing these facts, which all must admit to be facts, however much they may differ as to the significance of them, it follows that we are living under the dark shadow of the greatest national apostasy that has ever taken place. During all the history of mankind there has never been such a wholesale turning away from the Source of national blessings, in order to take up with the gods of the heathen.
SOLEMN NONSENSE
We have already stated that the regnant philosophy, i.e., pantheism, is expounded in our universities in two forms, known respectively as "monism" and "pluralism." Professor James, although a vigorous critic of monism, admits that the latter has almost complete possession of the field, and that his own cult of "pluralism" has very few adherents. These two species of pantheism are, however, alike in the essential matter that "both identify human substance with divine substance." From a Christian standpoint, therefore, it is not very important to distinguish between them.
The principal difference is that monism (or "absolutism") "thinks that said substance becomes fully divine only in the form of totality, and is not its real self in any form but the all-form"; whereas pluralism maintains "that there may ultimately never be an all-form at all, that the substance of reality may never get totally collected ......and that a distributive form of reality, the each-form, is logically as acceptable, and empirically as probable, as the all-form" (page 34). "For monism the world is no collection, but one great all-inclusive fact, outside of which there is nothing;" "And when the monism is idealistic, this all-enveloping fact is represented as an absolute mind that makes the partial facts by thinking them, just as we make objects in a dream by dreaming them, or personages in a story by imagining them."
"The world and the all-thinker thus co-penetrate and soak each other up without residuum." "The absolute makes us by thinking us." "The absolute and the world are one fact." "This is the full pantheistic scheme, the immanence of God in His creation, a conception sublime from its tremendous unity." On the other hand, pluralism says that "reality may exist in a distributive form in the shape not of an all, but of a set of eaches." "There is this in favor of the eaches, that they are at any rate real enough to have made themselves at least appear to every one, whereas the absolute has as yet appeared immediately to only a few mystics, and indeed to them very ambiguously" (page 129).
I have transcribed the foregoing specimens of this solemn nonsense in order that the reader may be informed of the choice which our great universities now set before the thousands of eager and receptive minds that throng them in quest of knowledge. The rulers of these educational institutions virtually say to their students, You must accept a pantheistic conception of the universe, but you may choose between a monistic universe and a pluralistic universe between a universe which consists of a single ponderous "All," or one comprising an indefinite number of miscellaneous "Eaches."
CONFLICTING SCHOOLS
Whichever of these "weak and beggarly" conceptions our young student adopts, he must be prepared to hear it assailed by the adherents of the rival school and criticized as highly irrational and absurd; and for this his course in philosophy prepares him. Thus the advocates of monism declare that pluralism is "infected and undermined by self-contradiction." On the other hand, Professor James maintains that the "absolute" of the monist "involves features of irrationality peculiar to itself." He points out that, upon the theory of absolute idealism, the all-knower must know, and be always distinctly conscious relation of every object in the whole universe, but also all that the object is not as that a "table is not a chair, not a rhinoceros, not a logarithm, not a mile away from the door, not worth five hundred pounds sterling, not a thousand centuries old," etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam. "Furthermore, if it be a fact that certain ideas are silly, the absolute has to have already thought the silly ideas to establish them in silliness. The rubbish in its mind would thus appear easily to outweigh in amount the more desirable material. One would expect it fairly to burst with such an obesity, plethora, and superfoetation of useless information" (page 128). And how about things that are criminal, vicious, and impure? These are of necessity just as much the thought-forms of the absolute as their opposites.
A PHILOSOPHER’S VERDICT
Again, after mentioning certain difficulties of the idealist theory, Professor James speaks disparagingly of "the oddity of inventing as a remedy for the inconveniences resulting from this situation a supernumerary conceptual object called an ‘absolute,’ into which you pack the self-same contradictions unreduced" (page 271).
Once more we quote: "When I read transcendentalist literature .....I get nothing but a sort of marking of time, champing of jaws, pawing of the ground, and resettling into the same attitude, like a weary horse in a stall with an empty manger. It is but a turning over the same threadbare categories, bringing the same objections, and urging the same answers and solutions, with never a new fact or new horizon coming into sight" (page 265).
This is what a philosopher of the front ranks says of the ruling philosophy of the day, whose speculations are being impressed upon the minds of our brightest college students. One comment may be permitted, namely, that if a foolish absolute did not Create men by thinking them, certainly foolish men have created an absolute by thinking it; and it is difficult to conceive how they could have employed their minds more foolishly.
AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK
This is the situation brought about, now that Christianity has been politely bowed out of our schools and seminaries in order to make room for the irrational philosophy of Hinduism! Very pertinent in this connection are the words of the prophet:
"The wise men are ashamed; they are dismayed and taken. Lo, they have rejected the Word of the Lord, and what wisdom is in them?" Jeremiah 8:9.
For the occupation in which our philosophers are engaged is the impossible task of trying to establish an explanation of the visible universe after having rejected the true account thereof received from its Creator. The god of the ruling philosophy is one who is not permitted to speak or make himself known in any way. Philosophy must needs put these restraints upon him for its own protection; for, should he break through them, the occupation of the philosopher would be gone. So he must remain in impenetrable obscurity, speaking no word, and making no intelligible sign or motion, in order that philosophers may continue their congenial business of making bad guesses at what he is like.
A WARNING
It is not difficult for one who has come to the knowledge of the truth through receiving the Word of God, "not as the word of men, but as it is in truth the Word of God" 1 Thessalonians 2:13, to perceive the folly and futility of all this. But who shall deliver the ignorant, the innocent, and the unwary from being victimized and eternally despoiled by these men who, professing themselves to be wise, have become fools? We can but sound the alarm and give warning, especially to those who are responsible for bringing up children, of the dangers which infect the intellectualistic atmosphere of our universities, colleges and seminaries.
A REASON FOR IT
In closing we may with profit to our readers point out a profound reason why the enemy of Christ, and of the men whom He seeks to save, should be desirous of impressing upon the minds of the latter the conception of pantheism. That doctrine wholly excludes the idea that man is a sinner, and hence it puts redemption outside the pale of discussion. Under the influence of that doctrine man would never discover his corrupt nature and his need of salvation, and hence, if not delivered from it, he would die in his sins. An enemy of man could devise against him no greater mischief than this.
GOD MALIGNED
But the doctrine which the philosophy of our day has imported from India works not only destruction to men, but also dishonor to God. Herein may its satanic character be clearly perceived by all who have eyes to see. Its foundation principle is that God and man are truly one in substance and being, and that the character of God is revealed in the history of humanity.
This evil doctrine makes God the partner with man in all the manifold and grievous wickedness of humankind. It makes Him particeps criminis in all the monstrous crimes, cruelties, uncleanness and unnamable abominations, that have stained the record of humanity. It makes Him really the prime actor in all sins and wickedness's, since the thought and impulses prompting them originate with Him. Thus God is charged with all the evil deeds which the Bible denounces, and against which the wrath of the God of the Bible is declared.
SATAN’S PLEDGE
It may be that, somewhere in the dark places of this sinful world, there lurks a doctrine more monstrously wicked, more characteristically satanic than this, which is now installed in our seats of learning and there openly venerated as the last word of matured human wisdom; but, if such there be, the writer of these pages is not aware of its existence. That doctrine is virtually the assurance, given under the seal of those who occupy the eminences of human culture, learning and wisdom, that the pledge of the serpent given to the parents of the race of what would result if they would follow his track, has at last been redeemed. "Ye shall become as God," he declared; and now the leaders of the thought of the day unite in proclaiming that man and God are truly one substance and nature. Beware! Beware! This teaching is, indeed, according to human tradition — the most ancient of all human traditions; it is according to the basic principles of the world and of the god of this world, and not according to Christ. No greater danger menaces the younger men and women of the present generation than the danger that some man, some smooth-tongued, learned and polished professor, may make a prey of them by means of philosophy and vain deceit.
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | speaking of conceited, self-appointed prophets, it's larris!
the serial document-dumper
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/19/2004 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | I appreciate the lack of honest discussion on the points that I brought up in the initial post. I have been a prime discussion point. Now Larris is also being "discussed." The issue of whether TM, Yoga, or Zen is to be rightly associated with Christianity is mysteriously absent. Why?
Perhaps Transcendental Meditation is actually a good thing and we can approach God in a more certain and pure way if we use this technique? I see no explicit condemnation of it in the Bible - it never mentions the words "transcendental meditation" that I am aware of. Maybe Yoga is just another spiritual discipline that can aid our approaching God by quieting our souls? No prohibition on Yoga either, that I am aware of. While some have called the ouija board forbidden as a graven image, what about TM, Yoga, and Zen? They aren't graven images, surely. Why couldn't they bring us to God and enhance our prayer life as Kelsey claims? (Not that I am embracing this myself, but I am wondering why the reaction would be so strong here if they aren't forbidden?)
If the means aren't important and every man can seek God as he wishes, then Yoga, TM, and Zen would be acceptable and even, perhaps, enhace spiritual growth and imaginative prayer. If they are wrong, then why are they wrong? Perhaps you are upset over nothing and Kelsey is a great prophet who has found the imanginative secret to spiritual growth that has been hiding in the East all these years? Dr. Boyd has done us all a favor in introducing us to Kelsey and his views on spirituality.
Based upon the mocking and responses, seems like there is a mighty strong desire to duck the real issues.
Spen Lake
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 7/19/2004 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear All,
I myself have been added to some lists of "bad people" cause i will not weigh in against certain ones,i.e. John and Paula Sandford, Kelsey, Macnutt, and others.
I see nearly nothing to be gained in trying to rule on the truth amount in these authors. I may be curious as to anyone's advice to even dabble with TM, or Yoga, or Eastern Religion. Howver,I've already done them in my earlier days. Now that I'm growing in the things of God, I feel need to fear what other religions may try tp foist on me. I've read where the naysayers books(Dave Hunt) have in one year cut down the book sales of charismatic authors by 70%... And as I went to check for myself by reading such authors as Hunt condemned I was greatly blessed. I also was grieved as some of these authors I had written off due to Hunt's accusations.
I now would much rather hear the content and talk that over instead of trying to judge the entire authors works. Also, many of these people go throughprofound changes in their lives. They even sometimes retract things they once thought or at least move some in their thought.
If a man confesses the Truth of Christ, Servanthood for Jesus...who are we to try to judge or condemn?
God forgive us who say we're Chrsitians yet are so quick to castigate and believe charges against our leaders.
Titus has many words on the sin of running to controversy and using many words. I know I've sinned this way. I believe that sin is involved in this very thread. Only your heart and God can tell you if you are involved in sin. And I pray God convicts, we repent, and we stay in the Love of God and each Other.
WITH GRACE,
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/19/2004 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Dear All,
I myself have been added to some lists of "bad people" cause i will not weigh in against certain ones,i.e. John and Paula Sandford, Kelsey, Macnutt, and others.
I see nearly nothing to be gained in trying to rule on the truth amount in these authors. I may be curious as to anyone's advice to even dabble with TM, or Yoga, or Eastern Religion. Howver,I've already done them in my earlier days. Now that I'm growing in the things of God, I feel need to fear what other religions may try tp foist on me. I've read where the naysayers books(Dave Hunt) have in one year cut down the book sales of charismatic authors by 70%... And as I went to check for myself by reading such authors as Hunt condemned I was greatly blessed. I also was grieved as some of these authors I had written off due to Hunt's accusations.
I now would much rather hear the content and talk that over instead of trying to judge the entire authors works. Also, many of these people go throughprofound changes in their lives. They even sometimes retract things they once thought or at least move some in their thought.
If a man confesses the Truth of Christ, Servanthood for Jesus...who are we to try to judge or condemn?
God forgive us who say we're Chrsitians yet are so quick to castigate and believe charges against our leaders.
Titus has many words on the sin of running to controversy and using many words. I know I've sinned this way. I believe that sin is involved in this very thread. Only your heart and God can tell you if you are involved in sin. And I pray God convicts, we repent, and we stay in the Love of God and each Other.
WITH GRACE,
Barry
Nice post, Barry.
How does this apply here? Is it proper and helpful to consider what some are claiming as aids to spiritual growth? Dr. Boyd calls the methods espoused by Kelsey as foundational to spiritual growth and that his 15 years experience have confirmed Kelsey's convictions. Which ones? Is any method acceptable and should this be looked into?
It seems that you are "gunshy" regarding TM and perhaps other techniques. I also believe that they are not a part of Christianity. There are others who believe that they are foundational. It seems to me that the scriptures must say something concerning this matter. Is claiming to find spiritual growth in Christ through techniques such as those promoted by Kelsey OK? Is this, "a man confessing the Truth of Christ, Servanthood for Jesus?" What of James 5 and the explicit technique given to cover a multitude of sins, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." We are told elsewhere that love covers a multitude of sins, here we see the actions that it takes towards those loved, making every attempt to bring them back under the covering blood of Jesus Christ.
Spen Lake
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Boyd doesn't talk about TM, Zen or Yoga, he talks about prayer.
"Multitudes of others have found resting in Christ to be the most foundational and powerful form of prayer. Renowned author and theologian Morton Kelsey testifies to its(PRAYER) transforming power in his own life when he writes….”it is out of these encounters that most of my growth in understanding and personality have come.”…Imaginative prayer is so transforming, because as Kelsey notes, it gives us ‘a way of thinking that brings us closer to actual experiences of the spiritual world than any other concept or merely verbal idea about that realm.’ Because our re-presentations are concrete and experiential, they are transforming in a way that abstract ideas by themselves can’t be. They impact us at a level that is more profound than that of merely intellectual concepts. Kelsey writes, ‘When prayer and meditation(ever meditated on scripture?) concentrate only on concepts, they do not touch the most profound part of our being…Conceptual thought does not have the same power as the ability to think in images.’ My own experience and fifteen years of leading “Experiencing Jesus” seminars confirm Kelsey’s conviction."
Greg Boyd
Seeing is Believing
Page 103
If you're against prayer, let us know why.
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 12:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Psalm 104:34 Let my meditation be pleasing to Him;
As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.
Psalm 119:15 I will meditate on Your precepts
And regard Your ways.
Psalm 119:97 O how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
Psalm 119:99 I have more insight than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.
Joshua 1:8 "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success."
1 Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
So why is spenlake against prayer and meditation but for burning at the stake and beheading?
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/19/2004 12:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
Psalm 104:34 Let my meditation be pleasing to Him;
As for me, I shall be glad in the LORD.
Psalm 119:15 I will meditate on Your precepts
And regard Your ways.
Psalm 119:97 O how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
Psalm 119:99 I have more insight than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.
Joshua 1:8 "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success."
1 Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
So why is spenlake against prayer and meditation but for burning at the stake and beheading?
Do you believe that these scriptures support Transcendental Meditation?
No. You've not made the link.
Your link is as good as my link to your advocacy of beheading.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 7/19/2004 1:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Sister,
You state several times, mistakenly, that I somehow support Calvin and his ideas regarding a "church state." I have a long record on this site of opposing Calvin's views on taking the civil sword. It is primarily because of this that I would never call myself a "Calvinist" as it has brought about too much damage. I believe that Dr. Boyd's recent sermon series concerning this has much merit in this regard. There has been much tangible and physical destruction in religions taking up the civil sword or some physical implement to execure God's wrath and judgement with their own hands. I don't believe in this, and in fact, I oppose it to the extent I am able. I don't think that the record has ben a good one when religions use the sword of the state. You would be safe enough if you came to my home for dinner and disagreed with me. I would feed your body and not strike it.
I think that taking up God's sword when it hasn't been delegated to you is a sin. I am told in Romans that the state is now the legitimate owner and I have no plans or desire to fight for it. I also think that we are commanded to speak and this is enough. Be assured that my verbal disagreement is the worst that you will experience from me or that I would condone by others. Let the battle be with words and ideas, always submitting to the authority of scriptures, as we seek for the truth and guidance contained there.
Finally, I don't think Morton Kelsey is more evil than me. He is brilliant, articulate, and for all I know an excellent friend, citizen and a man of noble character. I just believe that he is wrong and, if you follow his beliefs to where they lead, you will be eternally disappointed.
Spen Lake
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/19/2004 1:31 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/19/2004 3:54 PM (GMT -6) | | In my experience, the "guilt by association" strategy is the most frequently used method of argument within evangelicalism by those who want to squash a dissenting opinion. And the reason is, a) it requires no factual basis; and b) it seems to work for the masses. One magazine linked open theism with *secularism *evolution *abortion *homosexuality *new age movement *apathy (they left out communism for some reason) all within the span of one paragraph and without a shred of logic or appeal to facts. The goal is to protect people from heresy by installing fear buttons they hope will associate the heresy to other things the readers will certain despise.
I don't think Spen is trying to do this, at least not consciously. but I do think its possible he's been saturated by a religious culture in which this has so frequently been used its become part of his natural thought patterns.
Its really is a bad form of argumentation Spen. If I positively cite Calvin in a work (I have), do I have to specify each and every way I DISAGREE with him (as in the beheadings and burnings and predestination etc.), lest I get branded a murderer or a Calvinist or lest I lure a poor reader into becoming a Calvinist? If I cite Nietzsche or Satre or Camus, do I need to post a warning lest people think I'm an atheist or lest readers think these people are Christians and consequently become atheists in Jesus name? Should we write books on the assumption that readers are actually so dumb they can't make any discriminating decisions for themselves? Is the task of a book to simply indoctrinate people into "the truth" (as I define it of course) and guard them from all possible falsehood (as I define it of course) lest they be "eternally disappointed.?" Might we not help people by illustrating how its possible to find value in a perspective of a person with whom we on other matters disagree? Do we have to live life in a scared refuge center, paranoid at every point that an eternally damning mistake might creep into our brain and ruin us? If we have such a view, how can we ever learn anything? Its too *&$%#! scarey!
Spen ol buddy, lighten up a wee bit. God loves you and isn't going to damn you if you have one wrong piece of data in your brain on the day of judgment. Nor is he going to damn you if don't protect everybody from everything you think is theologically erroneous.
And just for the record, while I of course dont' advocate eastern mysticism (or the other things Spen listed) as a prof of world religions for 11 years I'll say that there's a lot we westerners could learn from Taoism, Buddhism, etc... They aren't ALTOGETHER terrible. WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING. Not even you Spen. To learn, you have to remain a) open minded while b) discriminating. Don't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
I don't even want to THINK what association that last paragraph is going to produce in the thinking of some. BUT, you CAN'T live your life in fear of the use some people might make of your words.
Love and out
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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