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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 11:49 AM (GMT -6) |   |
ghost-dog-girl
03/06/01 10:56 AM
Sanctification
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It seems that most of us agree that we are saved through Christ alone. (See the *reformed* thread; also, doc has been preaching some great sermons on this lately.) Now that we're all clear on justification (maybe this corresponds to habitus infusus), I'm confused about the sanctification side of things (maybe this is more a matter of habitus acquisitus). Can we sanctify ourselves through forming virtuous habits? If so, isn't this the dreaded "works righteousness"?
Here's my take on it. Maybe sanctification is not a matter of our good works, but rather good worship--i.e. resting transparantly in the power that established us (as Kierkegaard would say). Sanctification is a work of the Spirit. Our job is to show up. "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17-18).
I don't feel like I get this very well. Feel free to straighten me out, friends. Blessings, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
mn777saint
03/06/01 9:41 AM
RE: Sanctification
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"Finally my brethren, whatsoever things are True, whatsoever things are Honest, whatsoever things are Just, whats so ever things are Pure, whatsoever things are Lovely, whatsoever things are of Good Report; if there be any Virtue, and if there be any Praise, Think on these things"
"As A man Thinkith in his Heart so is he"
God Bless
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
03/06/01 11:11 AM
RE: Sanctification
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This may be "catholic" sounding, but I tend to seperate salvation from growing in Christ. I believe we must allow God to work in us and we must do the actual work, therefore, in santification (or how we grow more holy), I believe it is a cooperative effort between us and God. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
03/07/01 1:39 AM
RE: Sanctification
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GDG-
Excellent thread. Thanks for starting it. I'll follow you to the ends of the earth on this one.
Let me suggest two very popular works:
Dallas Willard's The Spirit of the Disciplines, (Harper & Row, 1988) and Richard Foster's Celebration of Discipline, (Harper & Row, 1978, rev. 1988).
For me sanctification IS God's work, but we have important parts to play. I call it "sowing to the Spirit" (Gal. 6). True, on a farm the actual miracle of growth is God's. But it doesn't happen apart from the farmer's plowing, preparing the soil, and sowing the seed. The disciplines are "methods" or "pathways" to spiritual growth, "means" by which we sow to the Spirit.
If you can only get one of the above books, get Willard's.
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ghost-dog-girl
03/07/01 7:38 AM
RE: RE: Sanctification
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Thanks for the references, Tom. I have heard good things about both those authors, but have not yet read anything by them.
My Lutheran professors say that sancitification is just a matter of "getting used to justification." I think that love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control are fruit of the SPIRIT, not of OURSELVES (Gal. 5:22-23). But at the same time, I agree with Harold and with your illustration of "sowing to the Spirit" that the cultivation of this fruit must be a cooperative effort (again, see the book of Hosea--if God's grace is irresistable this book makes no sense to me).
So I would say sanctification is more than just getting used to justification. To borrow something Modes quoted from Kierkegaard: we need to relate relatively to the relative and absolutely to the Absolute. I've been thinking about what it means to relate "absolutely to the Absolute" and I've come up with two things: confession and worship. I think that this is the context in which the Spirit makes growth happen.
Blessings,
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/08/01 7:50 AM
RE: RE: RE: Sanctification
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On SK and sanctification: additionally, SK makes a point that the one thing God requires of us that God cannot extract forcefully (with integrity) from us is obedience. This is a major theme of the book, "Works of Love". He also said that if Luther had lived during his time (Kierkegaard's that is) he would have preached the opposite message. On the other hand, in "Practice in Christianity" AC states:
"And what does this all mean?" It means that each individual in quiet inwardness before God is to humble himself under what it means in the strictest sense to be a Christian, is to confess honestly before God where he is so that he still might worthily accept the grace that is offered to every imperfect person--that is, everyone. And then nothing further; then, as for the rest, let him do his work and rejoice in it, love his wife and rejoice in her, joyfully bring up his children, love his fellow beings, rejoice in life. If anything more is required him, God will surely let him understand and in that case will help him further, for in the terrible language of the Law it indeed sounds so terrible, because it seems as if it were the individual himself who by his own power is to hold to Christ, rather than, in the language of love, that it is Christ who holds on to him.
My own take? What does not proceed from faith is sin. Rest in the Lord's peace, discern what God's will is for you, obey. A lot of kinks get worked out this way.
Not so different from your ideas about worship and confession, it seems, GDG.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
03/08/01 7:13 AM
WWJD or WDJD
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GDG-
“Sanctification is ‘getting used to’ justification.” I love it!
It’s interesting to me that Paul’s “fruit of the Spirit” is not far removed from “sowing to the Spirit” in Galatians (5 and 6). The farm is so appropriate a picture of the synergy that is sanctification.
I still think that by and large the Church has yet to articulate a realistic strategy for living as Christ lived, that is, a studied “how-to” approach to living Christ’s life. I certainly never got it growing up in church. And this is precisely where Willard’s Spirit of the Disciplines speaks so relevantly.
I remember reading years ago a popular Christian novel entitled In His Steps by (correct me anyone if I’m wrong) Charles Sheldon. The story centers on a particular church whose pastor comes to realize through a number of difficulties how unlike Christ he and his congregation are. He shares this with his congregation and they join him in a vow not to do anything without first asking the question, “What would Jesus do in this situation?” The novel tells the stories of several individuals in the church who attempted to apply this strategy. And it became my strategy to spiritual growth and transformation as well. But I can’t tell you how frustrating it was to want sincerely to live differently but not find in asking the question (WWJD) the inner strength needed to actually change who I was. It amounted in the end to behaving “on the spot” as Jesus would. But it left out entirely what is most crucial to personal spiritual transformation. Willard comments:
“As the content of the book makes clear, the author took this vow to be the same thing as intending to follow Jesus—to walk precisely ‘in his steps’…But there is a flaw in this thinking. The book is entirely focused upon trying to do what Jesus supposedly would do in response to specific choices. In the book, there’s no suggestion that he ever did anything but make right choices from moment to moment. And more interestingly, there is no suggestion that his power to choose rightly was rooted in the kind of overall life he had adopted in order to maintain his inner balance and his connection with his Father…So the idea conveyed is an absolutely fatal one—that to follow him simply means to try to behave as he did when he was “on the spot,” under pressure or persecution or in the spotlight. There is no realization that what he did in such cases was, in a large and essential measure, the natural outflow of the life he lived when not on the spot.”
Of course, asking ourselves “What would Jesus do?” is better than nothing, but it is not an adequate strategy for living as he lived. And that’s where the disciplines come in.
The wristbands with “WWJD” written on that are popular with young people today reflect the same flawed understanding of spiritual transformation. Before we can answer “What would Jesus do?” we have first to ask “What DID Jesus do?” and do those things. If we follow his way of life “off the field” (so to speak) then asking how he would behave “on the field,” say, in any one of our difficult circumstances, becomes irrelevant. For in those same circumstances we come to behave quite matter-of-factly as the spiritual disciplines have prepared us.
Just my thoughts,
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ghost-dog-girl
03/08/01 8:31 AM
God gives the growth
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Modes, thanks for the great Kierkegaard quotes! Deep.
Tom, I think you're right. Even Jesus had to "learn" to be obedient (Heb. 5:8). Here's how: "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death..." (v. 7).
I like the "organicness" of the sowing to the Spirit language in Gal. 5 & 6 you point out. I think that 1 Cor. 3:5-9 is an interesting parallel of Gal. 5 & 6 except perhaps on a corporate rather than an individual level:
"What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. The one who plants and the one who waters have a common purpose, and each will receive wages according to the labour of each."
The building metaphor that follows (3:10-15) is also very interesting. Jesus Christ is the foundation (perhaps this corresponds to habitus infusus?) for the building and we are responsible for what we build on that foundation (perhaps this corresponds to habitus acquisitus?).
As an aside, the relational nature of this basis for legitimacy in 1 Cor. 3:11 (Jesus Christ as our foundation--a person as opposed to a principle or a presupposition) offers interesting resources for those who are disillusioned with foundationalism.
Growing in Grace,
GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
03/08/01 3:17 PM
RE: God gives the growth
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GDG: am a big fan of Willard's and I think his book, Divine Conspirary, is the must read. Modes, have you seen SK's book Provocations? I've been reading it off and on over the past year. Its a grouping of his spiritual writings. Its like getting quick nuggets of him...John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
03/08/01 6:18 PM
RE: RE: God gives the growth
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Harold,
No I don't have that one. I am mostly working through SK's full length texts: Fear and Trembling, Repetition, Sickness Unto Death, Practice in Christianity, Works of Love, Philosophical Fragments, Johannes Climacus, etc... The one collection that I really appreciate so far is Thomas Oden's collection of SK's parables. It is SOOO worth getting a hold of if one can only afford a short period of time with SK.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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