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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 10:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | trosie
02/08/01 7:53 PM
TNT Meta Model Test
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Hello fellow TNT readers:
I am posting a TNT topic since Greg invited us to do this with each other. I am hoping to get some responses back regarding how the studying is going for the upcoming 'Meta Model' test? Do you feel ready for the test? Are there any areas that you are struggling to grasp? Personally, I understand how each pattern works, but I see some sentences overlapping with other patterns -- like when the word "all" is used it's sometimes used in a different sentence than as a Univeral Quantifier... I'm interested to find out how ready other people feel about the upcoming test?
I decided to post my question here because that way we can work together to help support one another through this course. I am hoping to get some replies!
Let's hold one another up in prayer
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/08/01 9:43 PM
RE: TNT Meta Model Test
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Yo Tros. Don't know diddly bout what you talk'n. So, till nother one of the TNT's people bite the bait, mind telling mr. smarter than average and more curious than normal me what TNT is? I read the post on the site. tNT looks interesting. but could you say more? why you in it? what's it do for you? and how's it different than -- well, whatever the competition is.
teach me!
with curious ears and eyes
Shine150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
02/09/01 12:16 AM
RE: RE: TNT Meta Model Test
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Hi Shine150:
Hey, I am glad that I sparked an interest because I believe in this TNT program. On the front page of Christus Victor there is a place that specifically talks all about TNT. I encourage you to read all about it and the testimonies that are posted there. It's extremely interesting
I'll just briefly say that TNT is a break through in therapy. TNT stands for Theosynergistic Neuro-Transformation -- which means cooperating with GOD for a neurological transformation (change) You see we have neuro nets (emotions) that are in our heads that have been programmed into us. God has designed us so that we can take authority over these emotions. The TNT approach teaches people how to run their life instead of living robopathically. This TNT approach teaches people "how" they do what they do instead of "why" they do it. This process is effective and FAST for helping people to deal with issues, phobias,.... It helps wake people up (if you may) out of the matrix by challenging the "hows" of what we do.... I hope you will read what is on the home page about TNT for I fear at this late hour I am not doing it the justice it deserves.
Feel free to ask any further questions. I hope some other TNT folks will jump in.
The testimonies are encouraging
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/10/01 12:48 PM
How not Why
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Thanks Trosie, "how" not "why." this sounds like "cognitive behavior therapy." Is it a version of that? how's it differ?
Shine150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Psalm_18
02/16/01 10:46 AM
RE: TNT Meta Model Test
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Hey Trosie,
I am 'feeling'(hehe)ok about the Meta Model test. I am fairly 'clear' on everything. I have trouble 'seeing' the difference between some of the deletions, but am confident that I will be able to 'digest' the material well if I keep practicing.
Seriously though, I'm glad you opened this thread because I've been wondering about the impact of TNT. How, with these tools, we will be able to set the captives free and help many many people.
What do you think about that kind of 'pushing back the kingdom of darkness'? Do you (or anyone) see this kind of applied truth as so powerful that it places us on the front lines?
What do you think spiritual warfare LOOKS like? Are we at an increased risk (is the bounty on our heads increased?)? Should we have more of a prayer covering? I am not settled in this area, (nor am I worried about any of the above), I'm just wondering. What are the practical evidences of spiritual attack? Is there just an all over spiritual attack, or is it increased at times when we are doing work against the kingdom of darkness?
Does this attack ONLY happen in the area of temptations, and things in our minds or is there some actual 'hits' that we take on a day to day basis?
~~~filled with questions on this one~~~
Psalm 18
ps. PRAISE THE LORD FOR TNT AND THE POWER OF APPLIED TRUTH
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
02/16/01 11:37 PM
RE: RE: TNT Meta Model Test
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Hi Psalm 18*
I think that anytime we live our life sold out for Christ we are standing on the front lines (whether we are in TNT or not), thus I believe it is important to put on the full armour of God daily. I think it's crucial to hold one another up in prayer. I know that my small group is committed to praying for one another on a continual basis. Actually, whenever God puts people on my mind I usually pray for them. Sometimes a name from this web site will come to my mind and I will say a quick prayer for the person. Who knows why a person comes to the mind but why not take the opportunity to pray for them. I believe we can always be praying for one another. I wouldn't worry too much about the warfare thing though because it can become a distraction in our walk. GOD IS IN CONTROL if we surrender our lives to Him. I know the warfare is real but God is my fortress.
I really am enjoying this TNT stuff too! I believe that this approach is a powerful tool to help free people from "junk". Anything that can help in setting people free from darkness and pain to live lives victorious for Christ is okay by me
I am feeling a bit better about the test too. I think that it is finally making more sense the more I think about the questions to ask. The only trouble is that I hear myself questioning my own statements now -- kind of like a nag in my head... HELP!(LOL) Thanks for responding.
God bless,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
02/16/01 11:56 PM
RE: How not Why
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Hi Shine150:
I just realized that you asked me another question about TNT. Sorry I missed it until now. TNT has been shaped from a few different models. I know that it has been influenced by Gestalt Therapy. It uses the structure of language and language patterns in it's approach. I took some Psych. classes back in college but that was a while ago -- could you refresh me on cognitive behavior therapy? I will tell you more of how they are related after I refresh myself with this.
Blessings to you
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/17/01 3:58 AM
Meph's Take on the "How, Not Why" of TNT
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Trosie,
Hope you don't mind, Trosie. I know that you asked Shine, but I figured I'd give it a shot and share some of my impressions of it all. I've found the TNT thing VERY interesting. I notice some things. First of all, from what I recall, the cognitive behavior therapy is best summed up by the application of this statement: "As a person thinks, so is he or she." The cognitive behavioral therapy system, as I think of it, is based upon the cognitive approach understanding of personality development developed by George Kelly, which is ultimately based upon Piaget's cognitive development theory in some major ways. Kelly basically said that human beings possess cognitive structures about their respective worlds. They react and respond to their worlds via these cognitive structures. Therefore, if something is going wrong with an individual, it could be because they have inadequate cognitive structures about life. This produces frustration and anxiety on multiple levels.
{Digression: I think Shine hit the nail SMACK on the head with his initial description. I'm quite impressed.}
If you read the TNT section of Christus Victor, it seems pretty apparent, to me at least, that the "how, not why" thinking comes almost directly from cognitive psychotherapy. George Kelly's take on psychological problems is almost the same way. It's based on basically the same foundations. Quote from the "How TNT Works" section:
"Approximately 800 psychological theories about the best way to make people whole. Most of these theories center on the question of why a person is the way they are. They attempt to explain why a person feels frustrated, depressed, angry, helpless, worthless, etc. While many people have been helped by some of these approaches, TNT practitioners do not believe that the why-question is the most effective question to ask. We believe the how-question is more effective and empowering. We attempt to help a person understand how they do feeling frustrated, depressed, angry, helpless, worthless, etc., rather than why they feel these things.
There are two problems with “why-approaches” to personal transformation. First, it is often difficult to answer the why-question definitively. Years can be spent rehearsing a person’s childhood experiences trying to figure out, “Why am I so paranoid (or depressed, etc.)”? Second, even when this question is answered definitively, the answer does not necessarily result in transformation. For example, knowing that your fear of sex is rooted in childhood sexual abuse doesn’t empower you to have a healthy sex life. Indeed, sometimes preoccupation with the why-question hinders the healing process by cultivating a “victim mentality.” The why-question may help people learn who or what to blame for their woundedness without helping them learn how to divest this person or event from the past of its power over their present."
Check it out. To me, it seems like a dead ringer for real. This is not a pejoration, by any means. Just an observation. However, I would say this. The original description of TNT states that:
"It is more accurately construed as an applied theology rather than a distinct psychology, for it is based on theology rather than standard psychological approaches to personal transformation and counseling."
I would say that this may well be overstating the case. To be certain the cognitive psychotherapy method is pretty much a recent rave (though the concepts have been around for a while) But the fact remains that is IS a distinct psychological approach that exists outside of any real theological basis. However, I will note that TNT's use of the cognitive psychotherapy is definitely backed BY it's theological pressuppositions. For example, check out the "TNT theology of human constitution" section of Christus Victor. I ask you to read it in its entirety, but here's a section I think is interesting.
"According to TNT, spiritual growth is a matter of aligning the whole self with the truth of God’s Word. In other words, spiritual growth occurs when we align the God-spirit-soul-body-world relationship with God’s original design for the self and for creation. It is a matter of making the soul subject to the spirit and the body subject to the soul. This is why Scripture says we are to be “no longer conformed to the patterns of this age” (the Satan —> world —> body —> soul —> spirit pattern) but to be “transformed by the renewing of the mind” (Rom. 12:2). We are to “take captive every thought to Jesus Christ” (2 Cor. 10:5)."
Ok. Looking at this, it really seems pretty cool. Summing up, it basically posits a tripartite view of the human constitution, the body, soul, and spirit. (Brandon should find this very interesting...hehe) And that our souls should be controlled by our spirits, according to God's original design for creation. Now, let's notice some things. What seems to be the real dynamic going on here? It is posited that the "inverted order" is such that human beings now get their impressions of reality (including their essential self-concepts) mainly from external sources instead of internal sources. From the same page:
"Instead of being defined from the top-down and inside-out, we become defined from the bottom-up (Satan —> us) and from the inside-in (world —> body —> soul —> spirit)."
This is the wrong way, it is claimed, and therefore has to be reversed. Now how is it reversed? As I see it placed, this occurs basically from taking induced principles of God's Word and applying it directly to one's perceptions about life in general and life as it pertains to the self in particular. This is considered "renewing the mind" Please notice that this is little more that cognitive psychotherapy with Christian theistic foundations for the new "self-schema" It's almost like you are being told the following:
"If you are having problems, it is probably because you are having the wrong thoughts about yourself that were given to you by the world. Forget about WHY you now have those thoughts. Ascertaining that would probably be a waste of time. What is important is to recognize HOW you are thinking now and discovering new ways to perceive your self, thereby change your thinking and THEREBY changing your attitudes towards life and your behaviors. You accomplish the preceding by 'thinking God's thoughts' as it were, meaning you alter your present thinking via Scriptural truths."
I think I'm pretty on point about this one. Hopefully, you can see exactly what I am saying. The person is being encouraged to trade cognitive structures for those more biblical and positive and THIS is seen as aligning the soul with the already renewed spirit. It's straight up cognitive psychotherapy...and I have no doubt that it's VERY effective. (Note: As formal as some psychologists try to make cognitive psychotherapy, the essential concept of changing thoughts to change behavior is not new at all. Just check out some of the wisdom literature of various world religions...including the Bible.)
*******************************************************
What I Find REALLY Interesting About TNT
One thing that is often stated about cognitive psychotherapy is that it fits well within our spirit of the times or "Zeitgeist" The age of self-empowerment and self-help. Besides that, it works upon the unavoidable assumptions of the POWER OF THE HUMAN WILL and it's real POWER TO CHANGE THINGS. More psychoanalytic theories (Freud, Erikson, et.al.), to some people, have the ring of determinism and (falsely) fatalism. The popular sentiment is
"I am a perpetual victim of my past. My past has made me what I am. Because I am powerless to change the past, I am powerless to change myself. The best I can do is find out WHY I am the way that I am and try to accomodate it as best as I can."
This, of course, negates for many the power and freedom of the human will. I think also this is why the word "determinism" puts a bad taste in the mouths of some people. However, cognitive psychotherapy doesn't do this. It says something like this...
"Your future is what you make it. What has come before is prologue only. THE FUTURE IS UNMADE and your decisions about your thoughts can help you change your life. Change the way you think about life and you life can change, reasonably regardless of your past experiences."
Notice the big difference and also notice the text that I highlighted. The future is unmade. The above is a very melioristic concept. Whether you fly or fall is ultimately up to you...and no one else. Doesn't this mentality go WONDERFULLY with the chief tenets of open view theism? Think about it. One of the non-negotiables of open view theism, as I see it, is libertarian free will. Qua Boyd, it is the power of will such that REGARDLESS of the amount of outside or inside influences upon a being, said being can ALWAYS do otherwise because of the power of his will. Another non-negotiable of open view theism, as it see it, is the predominantly UNSETTLED nature of the future. By this understanding, we GENUINELY effect our surroundings and our futures. Again, libertarian free will and the predominantly unsettled nature of the future. Talk about a hand and glove! Open View Theism's main points provide nearly the PERFECT theological context from whence to do cognitive psychotherapy. Perfect! Not only that, but you have God to help you. Another quote from "What Is TNT":
"Theosynergistic Neuro-Transformation (TNT) trains people to cooperate with God for a change. TNT is a synergistic integration of God’s truth and God’s design of us, for us, and through us. Our mission is to equip and empower the saints to live life passionately and abundantly."
(Emphasis Christus Victor)
Do you see what I'm saying? Now backtrack in your mind and remember what I said when I was the Open Theist? From my 02/08/01 11:36 AM post
"I'm a colaborer with God." and...
"5) I am completely free to determine my life. There are no fatalistic impulses upon my life. I don't feel like I'm on some ultimately meaningless treadmill called existence. My life has true significance. If I succeed or I fail in any aspect of my life, spiritual or otherwise, it's because I made wrong choices. Even in the midst of tragedies, I am free to make creative good come from them."
In open view theism, you are FREE and God is there to HELP you use your freedom wisely. You can help God help yourself, as it were. Personally, I think this is something else. Really! TNT is a system of psychotherapy that is extremely compatible with its theological presuppositions such that they blend together so well that it is considered "applied theology" Fascinating! Also notice something else. For those of you who are open view theists. Think of some of the pragmatic effects of open view theism that you often here about. I bet that you will notice that a significant amount centers around the ability to genuinely CHANGE a given state of affairs. Social activism, personal growth, evangelism, etc. All based upon the fundamental aspect of change. TNT falls right into this paradigm.
**********************************************
Summing Up,
I've said a lot, Trosie. But hopefully, I've given you some insight into my views of 1) what cognitive psychotherapy is 2) how it relates to TNT and 3) how TNT relates to open view theism as a whole. Hope that this helps. Again, none of this was pejorative. It was just some observations that I found interesting.
Your pal,
Mephistopheles2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
02/17/01 8:35 AM
RE: Meph's Take on the "How, Not Why" of TNT
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Hi Memphi:
"Forget about WHY you now have those thoughts. Ascertaining that would probably be a waste of time."
Not actually a waste of time if it helps to see where a certain thought is being triggered from. It's just that TNT doesn't focus or concentrate on the "why" because all a why does is answer a question. TNT is interested in changing the way our mind operates to take authority over the way our emotions effect us. The past DOES effect us because we have been programmed to believe the way we do from the experiences of the past. The way a belief gets installed is very important to discover in order to go back and restructure that belief. So, it's not a "waste of time" to find the trigger point as long as we don't remain stuck there.
Memphi, I am impressed with how you summed this up. I have never thought about how my believing in the open view and my believing in the TNT approach complement each other. I believe that TNT can fit in with the bible no matter which way one views God's knowledge of the future, however. I am glad that you like the TNT method!
God bless you,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
02/18/01 10:46 PM
RE: How not Why
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Hey Shine 150:
If Memphi is correct about you being "GB", and me thinkist he is, then you stinker -- you tell me how TNT is like cognitive behavior therapy?
Very curious
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
02/18/01 11:42 PM
RE: Mephi is an expert at what now?
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Yo Meph,
I disagree with some of your statements about TNT but it's late and
I don't have time to go into it all. I will say I find your overview is a bit simplistic but I guess that's understandable from someone who has never taken the course. Yes there are some cognitive behavior roots but it includes so much more. THe Meta Model is about language patterns. Ill formed grammer and such. Very helpful for discovering a person's worldview. TNT has much more to teach about language than this however. It also goes into preferred representational systems that are reflected in predicate usage.
Some people recieve, assess, and store information primarily through
a visual mode, others favor auditory digital, and others kinesthetic.
From the verbs and adjectives in your post I would hazard a guess that you are a visual, kinesthetic.
Check out your language
From the visual category you used:
As I see it
pretty apparent
just an observation
looking at this
you can see
see what I'm saying
gives you some insight
Your kinesthetic language:
give it a shot
found
check it out
dead ringer
falls right into
centers around
hand and glove
on point
You can discover which of these two systems is your favorite by
noticing other things about yourself.
A visual person speaks rapidly, will make hand gestures above their shoulders, sits erect or forward in their chair often with arms crossed. The breathe from high in the chest in a shallow fashion.
They are concerned with the way things 'look' from their environment to their personal dress. The have superb internal visualization skills. yada yada
Kinesthetics talk much slower. The breathe in long slow breaths from deep in the chest. They tend to sit back in their chairs in very relaxed postures. They love to work with their hands, because touching things is as important as their internal sensing (feeling).
I would say from the length of your posts you are a VK.
Although your predicate usuage is so balanced you could be a KV.
I would only have to spend a few minutes with your personally to know
for sure.
What does this have to do with your superficial summation?
Not much except to express to you that there is a lot more to TNT
than what you read in the excerpts on this sight, and you don't
quite have the philosophy captured yet.
Nice try tho
really
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
02/19/01 12:06 AM
No Expert Here. Hehe...
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Springs,
How's it going? Just a couple of things. First of all, I never said that TNT was STRICTLY cognitive psychotherapy. As you've said, I've never participated in it and besides that much psychotherapy uses somewhat eclectic methodology anyways. So I never would have said that is was strictly cognitive psychotherapy. Moreover, it seems to me that the main of your contention with my evaluation is its "superficial" nature. I would submit that it is more characterization (NOT caricature) of the general process as I see it from the information presented. Nothing more. My summation was NECESSARILY limited by my lack of experience and I never posted anything to say otherwise.
Again, I never said that there wasn't MORE to TNT than cognitive psychotherapy. I merely made the point that you yourself have asserted:
"Yes there are some cognitive behavior roots..."
If you read my post again, you will see exactly what I'm talking about. I never claimed to be an expert. Trosie asked this question:
"could you refresh me on cognitive behavior therapy?"
It was this question that I was attempting to answer and I just attempted to display the link I saw between cognitive behavior therapy and TNT. No one claimed to be an expert. LOL And with all due respect, if the TNT section of Christus Victor is accurate, I think that I do have a good overall idea of the main philosophy of the process. With respect to the more precise METHODOLOGIES involved, I do not, of course. If you look at the things you have mentioned, they seem to be methodologies that are used to acheive the goal of the main philosophy. If I'm wrong, forgive me, but that's what I think. Hope this clears things up.
Your pal,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
02/19/01 9:57 PM
RE: Tweakin'
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Mephi wrote:
As I see it placed, this occurs basically from taking induced principles of God's Word and applying it directly to one's perceptions about life in general and life as it pertains to the self in particular. This is considered "renewing the mind"
*The rub is how that is done. Like the Doc says information doesn't lead to transformation.
"Please notice that this is little more that cognitive psychotherapy with Christian theistic foundations for the new "self-schema" It's almost like you are being told the following:
*Please understand that it is a lot more than this. What do you mean
by theistic foundations?
Mephi:
"If you are having problems, it is probably because you are having the wrong thoughts about yourself that were given to you by the world. Forget about WHY you now have those thoughts. Ascertaining that would probably be a waste of time. What is important is to recognize HOW you are thinking now and discovering new ways to perceive your self, thereby change your thinking and THEREBY changing your attitudes towards life and your behaviors. You accomplish the preceding by 'thinking God's thoughts' as it were, meaning you alter your present thinking via Scriptural truths."
*You don't just find out where a client has erroneous beliefs and then just tell them well 'this is what God says' and ask them to try to start thinking God's thoughts. While we use the some cognitive behavior techniques we also have many other tools at our disposal to cut to the chase. That is discover the 'real' beliefs they hold that are not true. But from there it is not simply telling them what God says but actually bringing them into the presense of God. Cognitive dissonance can have roots in great woundedness. Christ is the healer.
Many people that go into counseling have erronious beliefs about God and to be sure a theological foundation can help them find the truth, but only by receiving that spirit of truth into ones heart and truly experiencing God's healing touch is that given witness.
Mephi:
I think I'm pretty on point about this one. Hopefully, you can see exactly what I am saying. The person is being encouraged to trade cognitive structures for those more biblical and positive and THIS is seen as aligning the soul with the already renewed spirit.
It's straight up cognitive psychotherapy...
*Nope. It is so much more. In my work with clients I have used many different techniques to locate their worldviews and their subconscious belief systems, but having arrived at that point I don't tell them to try harder. We bring God into the picture in an experiential way.
You getting me on this one?
I was a bit of a grump last night so I admit I may have been having a bit of a knee jerk reaction. The truth is despite your missing the other techniques or 'roots' we have and use and the role of God's Spirit you did a bang up job of summation. Better than some that have taken the course. j/k
I admire how gracious you are.
Julie Springer
Counselor
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
02/19/01 10:56 PM
RE: RE: Tweakin'
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Hey Springs and Shine 150:
Springs,you say that you were a bit of a grump last night and so tonight is my turn. I want to question what you said to Memphi at the end of your post: "I was a bit of a grump last night so I admit I may have been having a bit of a knee jerk reaction. The truth is despite your missing the other techniques or 'roots' we have and use and the role of God's Spirit you did a bang up job of summation. Better than some that have taken the course."
Call me a bit sensitive but I hope that you weren't referring to me in that last line. All this stuff that we're learning in TNT is so new to me still and at times can seem like a bunch of pieces of information so I am still in the process of integrating all this together, therefore, I find that it can be a bit confusing to try to convey what TNT is all about over this computer while doing it justice. I hope you weren't referring to me when you made that ending statement -- I am probably just being a little too sensitive? I am probably doing a "mind read"(LOL)
Shine 150, I am still waiting for your response in answering the question that you threw out for me to answer. How (not why ) is TNT similar to cognitive therapy in your opinion? Why did you choose to ask that particular question? I believe you have many of us curious about what the "150" stands for?
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