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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 10:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Polly_Histor
01/12/01 9:57 AM
How different is The Son since having been made flesh?
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This question has been on my mind recently, and I wanted to throw it out to see what others think. I don't really have any clear ideas myself, but the OV gives space for the question. (The question is based on some of the premises of the OV, which may or may not be true)I'll expand...
Before the incarnation, The Son, had never been in a body, but may theoretically have been able to imagine what it would be like. Nevertheless, He had never assumed a human brain as the vehicle, as it were, for the expression of his personality.
Jesus is born
Suddenly, The Son is unable to express himself fully, but relies on the built-in mechanisms of the human body to aquire understanding about the world around him, and skills to be able to interact with it. Over the years, Jesus gained an awareness of who he is, but we assume had no remeniscence of life as the preincarnate Son.
Ascension/Return to the Father
This is the part I am really getting at. When Jesus returned to the Father, he went back as Jesus and did not revert back to the identity he had beforehand, i.e. He is different.
The Question
When we compare those two identities, the preincarnate Son and Jesus, are they only different in their experience, and knowledge of the interim events, or are their natures different in some way because the preincarnate Son, is not God and Man, like Jesus?
Possible Answers
1. For Jesus, his return to heaven was like waking up from a dream, ie. like remembering something you know you knew, but didn't realise you had forgotten. In this case, there is no fundemental difference between the preincarnate Son and ascended Jesus.
2. The Son was communicating through a human machine, which became more and more efficient as time went on. (A bit like a computer that keeps getting upgraded, and is more capable of doing what you want it to do). When Jesus went up to heaven, the humanity in him was no longer necessary for his function, and so became irrelevant.
3. Becoming man was for The Son like having humanity woven into the Godhead, since the second person of the Godhead is now God-Man. In this case, God is different, unless the extra humanity acquired is no different to what was already there.
What are your thoughts? Does this make any sense?
Love Polly.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
springs
(Forum Moderator)
01/13/01 9:17 PM
RE: How different is The Son since having been made flesh?
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" but we assume had no remeniscence of life as the preincarnate Son."
*I'm not sure I agree with this. I think he looked forward to returning to glory. I'd have to reread his prayers for his disciples and future followers before he went to the cross. About wanting them to share the glory that he and the father shared before the world began. And there verses about being willing to suffer because he was aware of what glory was like.
"Ascension/Return to the Father
This is the part I am really getting at. When Jesus returned to the Father, he went back as Jesus and did not revert back to the identity he had beforehand, i.e. He is different."
*He didn't go back as Jesus. After the resurrection he had a new body. We don't know what it was like but we know we shall be like him.
He could eat but yet walk through walls.
"The Question
When we compare those two identities, the preincarnate Son and Jesus, are they only different in their experience, and knowledge of the interim events, or are their natures different in some way because the preincarnate Son, is not God and Man, like Jesus?
Possible Answers
1. For Jesus, his return to heaven was like waking up from a dream, ie. like remembering something you know you knew, but didn't realise you had forgotten. In this case, there is no fundemental difference between the preincarnate Son and ascended Jesus.
*I don't like this one, cause of the waking up part, see above.
2. The Son was communicating through a human machine, which became more and more efficient as time went on. (A bit like a computer that keeps getting upgraded, and is more capable of doing what you want it to do). When Jesus went up to heaven, the humanity in him was no longer necessary for his function, and so became irrelevant.
*hmmmm was his humanity just his physical body?
3. Becoming man was for The Son like having humanity woven into the Godhead, since the second person of the Godhead is now God-Man. In this case, God is different, unless the extra humanity acquired is no different to what was already there.
*If we are made in his image some of what we are has to be there.
I think the emphasis changes if you think of us as spiritual beings.
What are your thoughts?
*I just don't know.
Does this make any sense?
*yeah. It's interesting.
*Any of you big guns have any comments on this one?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ModesofThought
02/11/01 11:02 PM
RE: How different is The Son since having been made flesh?
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Great questions!!
Here is a speculative shot at it...
The incarnation involved a REAL change for God. The Son of God became the God-man (as SK called him). All of this was quite real and binding in every sense that we experience ourselves as being bound as humans. After the ascension, what occurs for Jesus is not different that what will occur to us in our resurrections followed by fellowship with God. An important theological term here is "perichoesis" which refers to the radical and complete inter-penetration of the three persons of the Trinity. This perichoetic inter-pentration would communicate effectively the heart/mind/etc. of God the Father and God the Spirit to Christ, in a way similar to the pre-incarnation relations. We too are invited into the perichoetic love of the community of God!! This is an amazing promise! This is what is meant by experiencing the full measure of the presence of the Lord.
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