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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 10:56 AM (GMT -6) |   |
BBBCanada
02/02/01 2:26 PM
Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalism and OT
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I was just over at the Open Theism site and Joeseph Holt said about Pentecostalism and Open Theology:
Note from the Web Master: Open Theism is not a Pentecostal theology, though Dr. Clark Pinnock, who is a Pentecostal, is often thought of as fathering the movement (I imagine history will record it as such.) In fact, Open Theism is quite cross denominational. Yet, it seems worthy to note that Openness is being received well in Pentecostal circles. One can only assume that the allure of a personal God, a real God of relational give and take are irresistibly attractive to a movement already steeped in such a metaphysic. Or, one might suggest that the movement, having been fired by the passionate flame of Pentecostal experience was picked up by other kinds of thinkers who saw the solid value it offered to all Christians. ~ Joseph S. Holt
What do you think of this statement and what are your views of spiritual gifts? Have they ceased or are they for us *still* today? I have for the most part associated within Pentecostal circles and I strongly persuaded that they have not ceased, but are an active ongoing part of the life of the church. What do you think?
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
02/04/01 12:20 PM
RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalism and OT
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Brandon-
As a Pentecostal...I'd agree!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ModesofThought
02/11/01 10:35 PM
RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalism and OT
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I am not a "Pentacostal" per se, but I would not shy away from the term "charismatic" though I oppose the dogmatic insistence that certian gifts are "signs" of salvation. God blesses people as God sees fit when God sees fit for what God pleases.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
02/12/01 1:50 PM
Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalism and OT
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This is going to be off the top of my head. And therefore, it is going to be short (books, books, info, I need more info!)
I really wanted to see some more interaction with this thread, but unfortunately, no one has really come forward. I’ll just start off with some thoughts and see where we go from there, but before I do, I will give some kudos to Modes for saying:
“I oppose the dogmatic insistence that certian gifts are "signs" of salvation.”
As we use to say in Bible college? HALLE-JULIA!!! I am up with what you are saying. Greg pointed this out in, “Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity” (my best friend is in the Oneness camp) as well. Also, I don’t hold to the party line in the PAOC (Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada) or the AG for that matter where we state that we have to have some “subsequent experience” *after* salvation with the “evidence, of speaking in other tongues” to show we have “it” (the baptism in the Holy Spirit). Generally, Pentecostal hermeneutic has tried to have their theology fit their experience and not the other way around. Fee points this out in his book on New Testament hermeneutics (I don’t have the name at the moment). Fortunately, that is changing.
Anyhoo, as some of you know, Richard Gaffin is one of the major proponents of cessastionism (a Calvinist, surprise, surprise, could not his views of cessastionism flow from the same hermeneutic as his understanding of OT or freewill theism flows from?). Gaffin, a professor, is *extraordinarily* skilled in exegesis. I mean he can exegete a rock. We need people in the church like that. God knows we have too little of it. People not handling God’s word properly. There is such flimsy, flighty, teaching out there. It makes me ill. I can’t believe North American Christianity has whole “ministries” built on unsound shotty “teaching,” (look at TBN, with Blowing Benny as we use to call him in the charismatic Bible school I went to. Which reminds me, why do we “highlight” certain ministries in the body of Christ over certain other ones as D.A. Carson points out. Are they not *all* spiritual gifts from the same Spirit?) Ugh…
Anyhoo, exegesis is Gaffin’s strong point. Yet. Yet! It is also his weakness (IMHO). See, Gaffin, exegetes into oblivion the spiritual gifts. But the whole of his exegesis is built upon a faulty premise to start with. That premise is a question. And that question is this. Ready?
“Have the spiritual gifts ceased with/(soon) after the apostles?”
Complicated isn’t it? But do you see it? The flaw is in the question itself! There is a hidden presupposition in that there question. Let me explain. The question is a 20th century or 21st century question super-imposed on to the Luke-Acts text and the Pauline corpus. This is the wrong place to start. We don’t start by asking Paul or Luke or any other apostle for that matter if the gifts have ceased with them. That would be tantamount, (IMHO), to asking if the Spirit, who initiated and sustains creation, withdrew His presence from it. Paul and Luke and the other apostles, “lived and moved and had their being” in the life of the Spirit with the gifts manifesting themselves as a natural outcome. This question would have been totally foreign to them.
The question that I raised at the top and the quote was intentional. It was put there for a reason and I hope that you can see why. Again, call me a naïve realist/literalist, but I would really like to get back to the text. And it is only in doing so, that we can then move forward in our theology of the Holy Spirit. Anyone?
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
02/12/01 8:31 PM
RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalism and OT
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I used to be really big on refuting charasmatics with the cessation arguments. Mostly because charasmatic Christianity nearly ruined me...but I have begun to lighten up (or perhaps I have just gotten rusty?).
Historic Reformed Theology says that certain gifts (i.e. speaking in tongues) were for a specific purpose and passed away. That is historically, but many are accepting these signs for today. The denomination I am in, the Reformed Church in America, has been greatly influenced by third wave pentecostalism. It is accepted, and there are some pastors trying to perform faith healings...yack!
There are, of course, more moderate people in Calvinism that do believe in these gifts...John Piper is one of them. I have also heard that John Knox, the great Scottish Reformer, was supposedly endowed with the gift of prophecy (not just preaching, but prophecied certain future events).
I said earlier that I was a cessationist...how about now? Weeeeelll. I would say I am leaning strongly toward cessation. After all, the Apostles had performed some great miracles (Paul raised a man presumably from the dead after he fell from a balcony), yet when Timothy was sick Paul didn't heal him. He recommended he take a little wine for his stomach (which could bring up another issue)
I was wondering if anyone has read The Charasmatic Chaos by John MacArthur. He has convinced me through exegesis that certain gifts have ceased. I won't go into it now, I'd like to see if there is any response, but I will say a little. MacArthur opened up the original Greek in 1 Corinthians and discussed that the tenses of the verbs that discuss certain things passing away and being done away, that the verb used in corollation with tongues showed a quick passing away, to be very soon, and to never come back again. It was also interesting how he interprets the verse that says "to eagerly seek spiritual gifts." MacArthur argues that this doesn't fit the context of the book. After all, Paul is showing the Corinthians that they are seeking things WRONGLY. He says that a better translation is "But you seek eagerly spiritual gifts", not commanding them to seek, but it was a statement of fact: they saught these things primarily. This seems to fit the context most appropriately. After saying "this is what you do", he goes on to say "but hey, let me show you a more excellent way".
Watcha think?
Craig
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/13/01 12:15 AM
RE: RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalis m and OT
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A book to read on the subject is Douglas Connelly's Miracles. He shows that when you look at scripture you see three or four (Moses, Elijah/Elisha, Jesus/the apostles) times of great outpouring of miracles and the rest of scripture tells there are isolated instances, but no great movement of miracles. His view is that while God could do anything at any time and, as such, we should not limit God, at the same time the full example of scripture is that great outpourings of miracles were isolated instances in certain periods of history and we probably are not in one now. Its a very good book. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
02/13/01 10:23 AM
RE: RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalis m and OT
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While not a cessationist, I share some of CHF's concerns about Charismatic/Pentecostalism (in the interest of full disclosure, I was P/C for a good 20+ years, including as a pastor). While not cessationist, I do believe P/C's misinterpret the nature and use of spiritual "gifts". For those interested, see the article by Robert Zerhusen Detective Columbo as Theologian. This is just a brief introduction to a couple more extensive works which can be found here.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
02/13/01 5:36 PM
RE: RE: RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostal is m and OT
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With y'all against the silly and damaging notion that speaking in tongues is "evidence" of being filled with the Spirit -- or worse -- of being saved. Where's that in the Bible? BUT, Paul tells us three times to "seek" (Gk: zelao = be zealous for) spiritual gifts. (I Cor. 12 and 14). He implies that the Corinthians should "come behind in no gift, waiting for the coming of the Lord" (I Cor. 1:7). personally, i've seen some beautiful wonderful outstanding blessed delightful and beneficial examples of people using the gift of prophecy, healing, word of knowledge and word of wisdom. They are for today, for sure! I feel sorry for Christians who theologize two whole chapters OF THE NEW TESTAMENT out of their lives! (I Cor. 12 and 14). It's real dudes! praying in tongues in private (I Cor. 14:2) is also fantastic, but i don't think its supposed to be for everyone. Everyone's got different gifts.
i also way agree that Openness theology fits very well with Pentecostal/Charismatic theology. Their view of God, and emphasis on human will and responsibility, is perfectly compatible with, even enhanced by, the open view of God.
rock on
and Shine150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/13/01 6:52 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecost al is m and OT
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Shine150: let me clarify my position. I believe God can do anything at any time he wants to, so long as he has not stated he wouldn't. So God could do anything at this time that he chooses to. But is there any evidence as to a wide outpouring of the gifts of the Spirit? No. I was a member of an Assemblies of God church for five years and heard all about how we need to let the spirit flow, etc., but all I saw there was blatant emotionalism. I believe God heals but we cannot make him heal no matter how much faith we have. We cannot make God do anything. Tongues CAN be an evidence of the Holy Spirit, but one does not have to have an outward sign to have the Holy Spirit. AG's believe you must speak in tongues. Where is that in scripture?
I believe we should be open to any leading God would have, including not having the gifts of the Spirit. There is an emphasis in Penecostal circles with one-upmanship (look what God is doing through ME) that is unhealthy. There is no evidence that the widespread outpouring of the spirit is meant for today. IF Penecostals wish to be taken seriously by the rest of the church it would benefit them greatly if they would document their claims.
Once a missionary came to our church and claimed that, at one revival, people were being healed by touching the tent near where an evangelist was speaking. When I asked him about it later (name of person speaking, where it had been held), he stated that was something that was related to him by a missionary friend (couldn't recall his name), and "Praise God!" God does not deal in hearsay. It doesn't benefit the church to deal in hearsay.
Let us remember Jesus and the apostles RAISED people from the dead. Think about that. They actually raised people from the dead. They actually made lame people walk, blind to see. When did that last happen in your life, truly? God can do anything he chooses, but in the vast majority of history he chooses to work through the natural laws he set up. There is a reason why they call them miracles, supernatural. Because they are not of the natural, meaning they do not happen in everyday, in ordinary life. John 17:3 Harold PS. I would also like to add that most "miracles" in Penecostal circles are the kinds (speaking in "tongues," words of knowledge, prophecy) that (no offense entended) that are usually so general that they are easily fulfilled.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
debutante2
02/13/01 8:49 PM
Spiritual Gifts/Penteco stalism and OT
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Hey, I am new at this...
I just wanted to respond to "writerdad" by saying this: It is obvious that you have had a hard experience in the A/G. I can understand how the things that you heard and saw were tough, and how they can damage your view of "pentecostals". I am sorry it happened. I have witnessed that "oneupmanship" and I hate it and God does too. I agree with the others that "tongues" is NOT essential for salvation. I don't agree, however that it is a dead gift. I have been a Christian for almost 6 years now, and had no experience at the church beforehand. I received the gift of tongues a year after I gave my life to Jesus, and it was in just the same way that I got saved in the first place: without coaxing, emotion, or hype. When I got saved, I was alone in my room, deciding on my own to give myself to God. When I recieved the gift of tongues, I was praying and the gift came to me, it seemed, very naturally. Now, I have wondered, debated, and thought with my classmates if tongues IS the initial physical evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit. I am not sure yet what I think of what Scripture has to say about it. But, I am not one to ever tell someone that they are not saved if they don't speak in tongues. That is like telling someone that they don't know God if they don't prophesy.
What do you think?
On another note, I am really intruigued by the Open View and tons of my friends and classmates are talking about it. I am almost finished with Dr. Boyd's book, and have in fact convinced some of my classmates to do a presentation on it in one of my classes.
Hey, God bless you! I am glad that there are Christians out there that are using their brains for the Glory of Jesus!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
02/13/01 11:39 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecost al is m and OT
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Shine-
You brought up that Paul commands us to seek spiritual gifts. I was wondering if you considered what John MacArthur says about the instance where Paul says "to seek eagerly spiritual gifts", and then goes on to give his shpeal about love being the better way? It wasn't a command, rather, Paul is saying "this is what you do, now let me show you the way of excellence". This is not people "theologizing" away these notions. As I have said earlier, charasmatic Christianity nearly ruined me...what does that mean? It means I was part of that movement seeking eagerly these "gifts". I have seen people "speak in tongues", I have been prophecied over (perhaps "word of knowledge" would be more accurate). This prophecy was false. It said that I hated my older brother and was jealous of him. This was funny because I had been thinking about how much I loved him, wanted to know him better, and just how much I admire him! I told this prophetess it wasn't true, and she said I needed to search my heart. She was disgruntled that I could possibly think it was false.
Let it be known it wasn't for at least another year that I became Reformed, and then another year before I became a cessationist! You can tell me your experience, I can tell you mine; but I am convinced from Scripture that certain gifts served a set purpose and are now not necessary. Scripture comes first, and in retrospect I can see how false my experiences were.
You also brought up this:
"praying in tongues in private (I Cor. 14:2)is also fantastic, but i don't think its supposed to be for everyone"
Here is what those first few verses say:
"1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."
Here is some of what MacArthur has to say:
"He who speaks in a tongue" - This is singular (that is 'tongue'), indicating that it refers to the false gibberish of the counterfeit pagan ecstatic speech. The singular is used because gibberish cannot be plural; there are not various kinds of non-languages. There are, however, various languages; hence when speaking of the true gift of language, Paul uses the plural to make a distinction (that is tongues), except in verses where it refers to a SINGLE person speaking in a single genuine language."
MacArthur goes on to say that these "mysteries" one speaks in a tongue (that is the gibberish) is demonstrative of this not being an endowment from the Holy Spirit. Why? In other instances tongues were not mysteries, but revelations! MacArthur continues in respect to not speaking "to men but to God": "This is better translated, "to a god". The greek text has no definite article (see Acts 17:23, 'an unknown god'). Their gibberish was worship of pagan deities. The Bible records no incident of any believer ever speaking to God in any other language other than human".
So what has MacArthur said so far? He says Paul isn't saying the gifts the Corinthians are displaying are true. Their so called mysteries are more demonstrative of a pagan, or pre-gnostic idea of religion. Only the priveleged few can demonstrate and know these "mysteries". The true Christian use of tounges brought revelation, not confusion.
But what about verse 4? It seems we should encourage our faith by praying in our secret language, right? Nope. Here Paul is introducing a contrast. He who speaks in gibberish PUFFS HIMSELF UP. Wait a minute, doesn't the text say edify? Yeah. Edification isn't always positive. The same word for edify is translated in relation to pride elsewhere, I am not sure why they would translate it as something positive here. The context calls for it to be "puffed up". So what was Paul saying? "Hey! You think you're following the way of God? Your so called "tongue" is puffing you up, but if you have prophecy the CHURCH IS EDIFIED". See the contrast? "what you do induces pride, the gift of God is for edifying the church".
I assure you my intention isn't to limit God. I am convinced through revelation that these gifts were for a set purpose now past. I would love to receive divine revelations about the future. I wish I could be instantly endowed with gifts of tongues to preach the gospel. It would be nice to heal people. I definitely think God "could" use these things...but He has revealed He WON'T. Its passed away. The foundation is firm enough now.
Craig
As an aside: I would recommend some works by Hank Hannegraff. I never knew that many pagan religions have had their own version of "tongues". It is also interesting to note how charasmatic churches create an atmosphere much like these pagan groups. Much of it is faked, some of it is just hypnotism and power of suggestion; some of it may be demonic. After reading this stuff, I am wondering what the source of the wailing, screaming, laughing, shaking, etc was that went on in the revival meetings I went to. God isn't a God of confusion.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/13/01 11:52 PM
RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pente co stalism and OT
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Debutante2: I truly believe God can come upon a person and they can speak in tongues. It sounds like that might have happened to you. I am suspicious when people talk about speaking in tongues and they mentioned pressure or people around them, stuff like that. I simply believe that we should never say God cannot do something unless He has said he won't. But I do not see evidence for all the miracles Penecostals are always talking about, which, of course, makes me suspicious. God is never glorified by deception. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
02/13/01 11:56 PM
RE: God's Spirits falls on men even now
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whoa,
I think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
And I don't agree with your definition of miracles.
I think that the cessationist doctrine originated at a time when the church was woefully bogged down in corruption. They were not open to recieving God's Spirit therefore they did not recieve God's Spirit.
Ergo there were no miracles being done. Let me rephrase that. By and large the religious system was dead however I am sure that even then God saved out a remnant and indeed the miraclous was occuring in the lives of 'Christians'.
Even now revival is coming to our land. God's Spirit is stirring in all the churches. He is tearing down the walls. Do you want it documented? Would this be for your personal use or publication?
If both, perhaps you could volunteer to be the witness and aver for us the truth so that we can know it is not hearsay.
I think one way to accomplish this task would be to go to the broken reeds and the bruised wicks and hear their prayers and then watch and see whether God bruises and snuffs or actually delivers the most mindboggling, impossible, wonderful, studependous, unexpected, joyful, outrageous miracles to the poing it makes you want to have a halelujah breakdown in the face of the most unspeakable odds. Go to where they pour out their hearts and hear God give a word of knowledge that actually saves somebodies life. Listen to a prophet share their vision and thank God you don't carry that burden.
Miracles in my dictionary have never left us.
God is good, all the time
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/14/01 11:30 AM
RE: RE: God's Spirits falls on men even now
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Heard that tune before...I want it documented because Christians tend to believe anything that comes down the pike, claim healing where there aren't any and God looks like a fool. Where God is dishonored I take exception. If you don't believe me, take a look at any of the following Benny Hinn, just about anyone on TBN, the Penececola Revival, Toronto Revival, etcetc. We should want to document anything, all miracles to seperate them from the fake, that God may be truly glorified. Otherwise, people think God is a fake.
It should also be noted that if there is such a revival in our land, why isn't the crime rate going down. Why aren't things changing dramatically around the areas where these "supposed" revivals are taking place? Reival is a misused word today. What we need are Christians who will follow and honor God in their daily lives and stop worrying about whether or not God is going to do that "miracle" in their life. This is NOT a criticism of you, Springs, but it seems to me that we have a lot of emotional Christians who are more into serving their feelings, than God. I believe God has been doing miracles, on and off, throughout history. But is there a widespread outpouring of his spirit today? I have yet to see it. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
CHF
02/14/01 11:52 AM
RE: RE: God's Spirits falls on men even now
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Springs-
I have no idea where you came up with what you said...actually I do. I was in the charasmatic movement and what people like to say is that we are now in a time of great outpouring of God's Spirit(which I don't deny), and they say it is through their miraculous gifts (which I do deny). This is somehow our new apostolic age, and the past 1000 years or more we lost it...somehow this comes across presumptuous.
You said this:
"whoa, I think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. And I don't agree with your definition of miracles."
I am not sure who your post was directed toward, but no one has even defined what a miracle is or is not. I have not denied the miraculous, I have denied that certain gifts are for today. Please tell me who and what has been said that made you think the miraculous is being denied.
You continue:
"I think that the cessationist doctrine originated at a time when the church was woefully bogged down in corruption. They were not open to recieving God's Spirit therefore they did not recieve God's Spirit. Ergo there were no miracles being done."
You can say you think this; but can you substantiate it? Ignorance of church history will always bring faulty notions. The spread of Christianity is proof of the miraculous. The Reformation is proof of the miraculous. Many people wanted to kill Martin Luther...yet he wasn't. When he went before the heads of the church in Germany they had to promise to not kill him. Which really meant nothing, because they gave the same promise to Huss and we know he was martyred.
The preaching of God's Word transformed entire societies. I see no change in the church today as a whole. We are very worldly. I am not talking about blatant sinning (though it is there); we seem to be moralistic. But our thinking is very earthly. We embrace the way the world lives, and we justify it. Far from a spiritually vital time, we are spiritually weak. We have the resources, but nobody wants to think the thoughts of God after Him.
You also say:
"God's Spirit is stirring in all the churches. He is tearing down the walls."
I hear this everywhere. It is one of those catch Christian phrases...do you even know what it means? I know I don't.
You continue:
"Go to where they pour out their hearts and hear God give a word of knowledge that actually saves somebodies life. Listen to a prophet share their vision and thank God you don't carry that burden."
I have listened to their Godless chatter. Their knowledge usually tells people they have unconfessed sins inhibiting God's Spirit, or they don't have enough faith. I hear the crying, I see the tears, yet there's no answer to their cry. I have heard of the visions, I will be going back to my home church in the next few weeks; I will see if a vision that someone had 15 years ago will be fulfilled. I know that it is very apparent these people think it is being fulfilled, and I know the people well enough to know that they will probably try to orchestrate things into looking like it was fulfilled.
I can go on and on with my experiences; but I don't care to. I believe in the miraculous. I believe in speaking in tongues...it really happened; but it isn't for today. Look at my defense of cessationism which deals with the Scripture. That is what has my conscience captive; your experiences won't free it. Use the Word of God.
Craig
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
02/14/01 3:34 PM
RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pentecostalism and OT
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Hey people, thanks for weighing. Ummm...I will have to weigh in on some of those important questions in a little bit. However, let me say this much. MacArthur couldn't be any further off the launch pad. Read some Gordon Fee. Ewww...
Brandon
Church time!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
02/14/01 4:51 PM
RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pente co stalism and OT
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I'm sorry, I'm going to throw a wet blanket over this whole things because I am firmly convinced that what modern Pentecostals and Charismatics do have abosolutely nothing to do with New Testament tongues. William Samarin, a linguist, has published a comprehensive research study on tongues and not one single person he studied spoke in a "real" language - that is, anything that even remotely resembled or had the necessary characteristics of a language. Robert Zerhusen makes a very strong case that NT "tongues" are simply languages not common to a particular congregation (I am vastly simplifying this, but I really would encourage people to check out Zerhusen's thesis here).
Oh, btw, I "spoke in tongues" for over 20 years.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Geebob
02/14/01 10:47 PM
RE: RE: Spiritual Gifts/Pent e co stalism and OT
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I know someone who speaks a tongue. She didn't know it was a real language until she demonstrated for her spanish teacher who recognized it as an ancient form of spanish. I know that she wouldn't lie and she is not a nut.
that the guy studied a few phonies is not viable evidence against its existence.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
trosie
02/15/01 12:02 AM
RE: RE: RE: God's Spirits falls on men even now
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Writerdad:
It's late so I may not be reading your posting correctly. Are you saying that you don't think that the miracles that are happening in the revivals you mentioned are truly miracles? If that be the case then I want to set you straight because MANY of my friends, and myself as well, have received various healings (physical, emotional,...) I just need a little clarity. I'd love to share some testimonies to support these miracles if need be.
Thanks
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
02/15/01 12:31 AM
RE: RE: RE: God's Spirits falls on men even now
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Hi Craig:
I feel so passionately about this topic that I cannot skip over what you have said without responding to a few of your statements. First, I say AMEN to your statement:
"...I see no change in the church today as a whole. We are very worldly. I am not talking about blatant sinning (though it is there); we seem to be moralistic. But our thinking is very earthly. We embrace the way the world lives, and we justify it..."
Actually, I am getting sick and tired of how Satan has put blinders on people to the point that they buy into the worldly view of thinking that the things that are tangible(materialism) is where it's at!
Secondly you stated:
"I have listened to their Godless chatter. Their knowledge usually tells people they have unconfessed sins inhibiting God's Spirit, or they don't have enough faith. I hear the crying, I see the tears, yet there's no answer to their cry. I have heard of the visions, I will be going back to my home church in the next few weeks; I will see if a vision that someone had 15 years ago will be fulfilled. I know that it is very apparent these people think it is being fulfilled, and I know the people well enough to know that they will probably try to orchestrate things into looking like it was fulfilled"
What you mentioned above is human ignorance not to be mistaken for God's giftings. Not EVERYTHING that EVERYONE sputters out is from God. We need to test things to see -- God has given us His discerning Spirit if we are open to it. Many times I think people use the spiritual gifts to abuse people... When this is the case it is pathetic because it robs people from seeing the true beauty and reality of God's gifts that He still offers us today. All I can say is "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" or "One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bushel" Not ALL gifts that people display are from God but God does still give us these gifts even in 2001!
In Christ,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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