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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 12:35 PM (GMT -6) |   |
Proverbs23_23
04/23/01 10:48 AM
the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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I thought it would be nice to start a topic where anyone could share testimony as to feeling, seeing, hearing, etc...the POWER of God in Praise and worship,(which isn't often talked about), as well as prayer. Someone preached a needed message on this today...and I'm thankful.
*proverbs*
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
04/23/01 9:13 AM
RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Interesting... I sure everyone will agree we don't base our faith on "feelings", but what is that sense of God's presence in prayer and praise. Just some emotional "high" or maybe some tangible effect of the Spirit of God. Is it just crowd dynamics in a group setting, or what. Just what the heck is a religious experience ? Why do we have a sense of awe about God in a starry sky ?
Should we suppress these "feelings", or nurture them?
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/23/01 10:21 AM
RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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might-be-don wrote:
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Interesting... I sure everyone will agree we don't base our faith on "feelings", but what is that sense of God's presence in prayer and praise. Just some emotional "high" or maybe some tangible effect of the Spirit of God. Is it just crowd dynamics in a group setting, or what. Just what the heck is a religious experience ? Why do we have a sense of awe about God in a starry sky ?
Probably some of all of the above. If you watch any type of motivational meeting, you will see a lot of the same dynamics that go on in certain types of "Christian" services.
Should we suppress these "feelings", or nurture them?
Neither. We should recognize feelings as feelings - they are not indicative of truth, faith, committment, or anything else. They are nice when they coincide with our faith, but should never be something sought after for their own sake. Faith follows after fact, with feelings along behind.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/23/01 11:50 AM
RE: RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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I am coming to the place in my life where I recognize that feelings have their place but they are not the "endallbeall" of my life. It would seem within the Christian life these days that knowing God is with you is the equal of feeling good about life in general and when one praises God one has to "feel" the presense in order to know God is with a person. Personally, the times in my life when God worked the greatest, the circumstances were horrible and I usually felt like crap, didn't want to be where I was and, to be perfectly frank, was irritated at God for what he was doing.
The church I left recently (AOG) was big on allowing the Spirit to work, which was the equal of working yourself into an emotional state that you could feel the presense. In worship now, I just find an avenue to praise God and try my best not to worry as to how I "feel" about the worship. I take my cue from the Psalms. Most were lament Psalm but most all of them end with praise to God, despite the circumstances. And, of course, Paul, "I learned to be content..."
God meets needs, but I don't always think feeling good is high on his list...John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
04/23/01 1:09 PM
RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Oops, maybe I lead people to think that I was focusing on the feeling. I should have asked more about the POWER of, or the RESULT of, praise and prayer.
I have been thinking about the awesome power that people can see if they call upon the prince of this (temporal) world (eg. satanists see things move etc). What do we SEE as we call upon Jesus, or as we Praise Him?
I'm thinking about corporate praise, and the power there, as well as corporate prayer. It seems to be (at least in my experience) very powerful.
*proverbs*
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
04/23/01 2:50 PM
RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Here's one (of seven zillion): About four years ago I ran into a man before church service who identified himself as an atheist who was "just coming to placate an obnoxious christian friend." At the end of the service he came forward to accept Christ as Lord. He later commented that while he didn't remember a word I preached,he'd never forget the "sense of something real" present during the worship service. Intellectually he thought the people were looney. But at the core of his being he sensed there was a reality here that he wanted, and desperatedly needed.
Psl 22. God is enthroned on the praises of his people. Where people are invested in passionate praise -- God sits! Where God shows up, people who have any openness to God sense him.
Personally, I think the best thing a church can do to enhance evangelism is to teach people how to be sold out, abandoned, singularly focused and uncompromisingly passionate in giving glorify to God -- individually and as a corporate whole.
Blessings
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/23/01 4:31 PM
RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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I like this idea of discussing sermons that minister and stand out for us
One thing that has stood out for me in TNT is that God changes us from the inside out. When we submit to worshipping and praising God (even when we don't "feel" like doing it) He is able to deliver us from our trials and burdens at least a bit and replace the emptiness or heaviness with His joy and peace. He allows us to make the choice, but when we do He is ready to come right in and fill us.
I personally do NOT always "feel" like entering into a time of praise and worship BUT I have NEVER left a worship time feeling empty. Looking up toward Him lightens the load and gives me a fresh perspective about everything else.
Awesome topic!
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
04/24/01 6:47 AM
TNT
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Doc-
Trosie mentioned TNT. Tell me, is this material available in study guide format, with videos, cassettes (8 Track ) for purchase? How does one get acquainted with the material?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
RevivalTheology
04/24/01 9:50 AM
RE: RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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One question, Doc: How can you know this person then is truly meeting the conditions of the Gospel?
I'll tell you, in my drug days (long time ago), I had the same type of experience on LSD in the middle of a field and spent the next two or three years chasing that.
Just my opinion, but I think some serious re-evaluation is in order if this is considered a legitimate conversion.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Misevac
04/24/01 11:14 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Revival:
Can you explain more? I guess I thought there was just one condition to the gospel and that was accepting Christ as your savior...are there more? I am not aware.
Secondly, I don't know that it is our job to decide if a person meets the "criteria" of the gospel. That is between them and God. What is cool is to see how this atheist was able to sense a reality in the presence of God that was not explained through logic.
To others:
Can I offer a definition of feelings that I believe would follow the TNT model? (For those of you not familiar with TNT, see Greg's homepage. This will give an overview. Also, any TNT students, correct me if this is not accurate.) I think this may be helpful for our discussion:
Feelings are the neurological responses to the beliefs that we have. To the extent that our beliefs line up with God's truth, is to the extent that our feelings will be an accurate reflection of reality. Feelings also have purpose. They help us to know whether or not we should do more or less of any given action or if we should move toward or away from something. Fear can help us move away from something dangerous, the feeling of love can help us move toward helping a person we might not otherwise help, etc.
In worship, we can sometimes have the wonderful feeling of God's presence. We can check it with God's truth and realize that yes; we should do more of this! Sometimes when we worship, we do not feel that feeling. We may even feel bored, frustrated, etc. Those kinds of feelings motivate us to "move away" from worshipping God. However, when we look at God's truth, (Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!), we realize that they do not line up. . So we choose to worship anyway. That part takes faith because we are putting our hope in something that goes against the "evidence".
Feelings can be based in untruth, but then again so can thinking. I believe they are both a part of God's design and that without the Holy Spirit; we would not be able to discern truth in either case.
For what it is worth-
Misevac
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/24/01 5:30 PM
RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Misevac, please show me one, just one verse that says anything about "accepting" Jesus in the New Testament.
There are a number of "conditions" for salvation. First, the Cross itself is a condition of salvation, apart from the Cross no man can be saved. Second, one must repent and believe (or exercise faith) - this might be construed as two, but I'll leave them together. Third, the scriptures are quite clear that one must persevere in the faith - "he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
And please, do you believe that Mormons are "saved"? How about Jehovah Witnesses? I hope you get my point. There is a "criteria" for determining who is a Christian and we all have it - the question is the criteria we use scriptural or not?
As for faith being "against" evidence, that is pure credulity, not faith. "Faith" is submission to, obedience to, trusting in, the truth. If the mind is not convinced of the truth, the heart cannot long follow. "Feelings" aren't evidence of anything accept a "neurological response" to a perception of our environment. As such, they may be enjoyed or overcome, but should never be followed!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Misevac
04/24/01 6:09 PM
RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Revival:
You say: "Feelings" aren't evidence of anything accept a "neurological response" to a perception of our environment."
Okay…I think that's what I said when I made the statement "Feelings are the neurological responses to the beliefs that we have." So I am not sure what your argument is there.
Are you referring to when I said: "when we look at God's truth, (Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!), we realize that they do not line up. So we choose to worship anyway. That part takes faith because we are putting our hope in something that goes against the "evidence"? If so, what I meant by evidence is that sometimes it takes faith to worship because there is no "evidence" (internal or external motivation) to do so. I was not saying that feelings = evidence. I wonder sometimes, when feelings line up with truth, if they are there to give us the added encouragement we need to act.
Also, I understand that we have criteria for Christians. What I said is that I was unaware of one besides accepting Christ as savior. When I said accepting, I meant the same thing in which you pointed out which was believing in Christ. I also believe that you would need to repent. I would assume among Christians that when we talk about "accepting" Christ that we are referring to the same basic criteria of believing and repenting (I guess I won't assume that anymore).
When Greg stated:
"At the end of the service he came forward to accept Christ as Lord…"
You seemed to be concerned about this criteria and then somehow related it to an LSD experience. This made me think that besides "accepting Christ as savior" there was some other criteria that Greg or any of us should be sure to watch for to make sure this atheist was saved. I guess in that sense, I am not sure what criteria you would look for before you judged someone to be saved…. especially if you only had one experience with them.
Anyway…I am curious to know what everyone else thinks the purpose of feelings are, if any? Did God create them for no reason, just to add a little variety in life or something else? If they have no purpose at all, why does the Bible talk about all the different emotions of God? Just curious and trying to spark a little discussion…
Misevac
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/24/01 6:54 PM
RE: RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Revival said: "How can you know this person then is truly meeting the conditions of the Gospel?"
WOW! That sounds pretty judgmental -- I am not sure why you would want to assume that this person wasn't meeting the "criteria"? I guess it isn't for us to know what is in a persons heart.The ONLY thing we need to be sure of is that the person is meeting Jesus Christ -- He can do the rest of the work. Personally, I just thank God that this atheist had an God changing experience!
Misevac said: ""when we look at God's truth, (Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!), we realize that they do not line up. So we choose to worship anyway."
I guess to me this is where we choose to have the "I" take charge over our emotions and this is where we can choose to walk in the "Fruit of the Spirit" and apply the "Pillars of Wisdom". I believe feelings are good gauges for helping us to make sense of things BUT they need to be aligned with God's truth. We can not walk nor base our decisions solely by our feelings but rather use them to help us assess situations...
Blessings to you all
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
04/25/01 9:02 AM
Pondering out loud....
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Ok, let's talk LOVE....aw...
Is the main FEELING in worship the confession of LOVE towards the 'Personified love', or Creator of all love? Could the feeling we have be so strong because of the simultaneous outpouring of (the realness of) His love toward us?
Could an unbeliever (who lives in a world devoid of this love) be receiving a taste of pure love and be so moved by it that he/she MOVES TOWARDS it? I think so!
What's the PURPOSE of the feeling called love? Maybe to bind us together with Him and with each other, to increase our faith and strengthen us, to comfort us and give us rest, and maybe just to affirm what is good and pure and lovely...
*love,*
proverbs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
04/25/01 12:51 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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I must drop a line in about judgment. We exercise judgment everyday. I am not sure why Christians are so "paranoid," about judgment. We judge those that are safe to love, we judge whether a person is a threat to us, etc. We judge whether or not a person may meet the "criteria" of being a Christian so they won't deceive us and lead us astray. Nothing personal, but we are called to be as wise as wolves. How can we do that if we are not judging what those around us believe? For instance, Mormons want to be known as simply another Christian demomination now. Should be just believe them when they say they are Christians? Judging people, situations and beliefs is a part of life. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/25/01 9:54 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Harold:
I see the logic in what you are saying regarding judging things (discerning things) BUT when it comes to someone saying that they have accepted Christ or that they felt the power of God in a praise time it is NOT for us to sit and try to evaluate whether they have met the "criteria".... Yes, we must be on guard and sift through the people, situations, and beliefs that we encounter but we cannot judge another person's heart -- that's what I was trying to say. We shall know people by the fruit they bear.
Blessings
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
churchmouse522
04/25/01 11:05 AM
RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Hi Everyone,
I want to begin by saying I can really understand every viewpoint that has been expressed here. Sometimes I think we're really not that far apart, but experiences in our past make us nervous when we see the conversation turning in a certain direction.
I'll begin by being out loud about the things in my experience that bias me in this area. I came from a very emotional pentecostal background. (Lots of whooping and carrying on.) They also had a lot of "criteria" for judging who was "saved" including things like speaking in tongues and being baptised in a very particular way. And if you tried to ask questions, your character was suspect. It was very anti-intellectual.
Now that there is no question what is coloring my point of view, I'll say a few things in response to what has been said in this thread. First of all, even though I can see how emotions can be carried to an absurd extreme and used to manipulate individuals and a crowd, I have been truly blessed both in private devotions and in corporate worship, and that blessing is manifest by very strong emotions. Isn't that a natural way to experience blessing from God? I am a being with senses, and God uses that. Wonderful. In Greg's sermon last week he went out of his way to explain that worship should happen apart from feelings. So please don't hear that we are going after a feeling. Worship is just ascribing worth to God apart from any feeling we might have. It very often makes you feel pretty dang good. Bonus.
Now, I really understand where some of you are coming from backing off of any talk of feelings. Honestly, I spent the first couple of years after leaving this church searching for every intellectual tidbit I could find. I so much appreciate the freedom both in this discussion room and in my present church environment to ask questions and get solid intellectual foundations for my faith. Still, I would not want to totally negate feelings in the context of worship. Tell me how else one would experience blessing?
I'm going to say something now that might get me in a lot of trouble. In the area of "judging" or "discerning" or whatever you might call it, I get pretty edgy when someone begins to question a persons salvation claim. Someone earlier in the thread threw out a statement something like "well you don't think mormons or jehovah's witnesses are saved, do you?" and my immediate response was to think to myself, "who says their not?" I know their theology is way way way off. Granted. But would you really want to say "you're not really saved" to a mormon? Could you really have any confidence in that statement? It's God who saves. Maybe he saves them IN SPITE of their screwed up ideas. Maybe not, but I would rather engage them on the level of their faulty beliefs than question the reality of their salvation. I had some MAJOR wacko ideas about salvation and the godhead from my church background, but God saved me in the midst of it, and then lead me into new truths from there. I'm so thankful that he didn't wait until I had correct theology (if indeed my theology is correct at this point. I guess that's up for grabs, especially now.)
Anyway, I have been very very blessed lately by things I see God doing, and I want nothing more than to see that blessing spread like wildfire. So if anything I have said has offended anyone, sorry.
All kinds of mad blessings to you all,
Churchmouse
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
04/25/01 7:42 PM
RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Don't have much time these days, just a quick pop in, but wanted to respond to trosie, who wrote:
Revival said: "How can you know this person then is truly meeting the conditions of the Gospel?"
WOW! That sounds pretty judgmental -- I am not sure why you would want to assume that this person wasn't meeting the "criteria"? I guess it isn't for us to know what is in a persons heart.The ONLY thing we need to be sure of is that the person is meeting Jesus Christ -- He can do the rest of the work. Personally, I just thank God that this atheist had an God changing experience!
Hey trosie, aren't you being pretty "judgemental" towards me? Seriously, I think one of the most dangerous things that can be done is to be too quick to pronounce someone "saved" because they have followed some preconceived formula or procedure - especially when its not scriptural!!
What I perceived the Doc relating was a guy who thought the theology was "loony" but was responding based on a subjective experience. Subjective experiences are a dime a dozen - what makes his any more valid than the one I had on LSD, since neither follow any scriptural pattern? That was my point.
We are on most dangerous ground encouraging people to believe they are "saved" when they have not given evidence of having repented and believed the Gospel. In the illustration Doc gave, the guy apparently didn't believe (trust and obey) anything other than his experience. The concept of false conversions seems to have been lost upon our modern generation. However, Jesus warns of those who will stand before Him and say "Lord, didn't we..." and He'll say "nope, I never knew you."
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
04/25/01 9:50 PM
RE: TNT
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TGB asks, "Trosie mentioned TNT. Tell me, is this material available in study guide format, with videos, cassettes (8 Track ) for purchase? How does one get acquainted with the material? Tom"
TNT is dyno-mite stuff my man! Right now the material is only available through a 9 month class that I and Al Larsen teach. Al also leads seminars on this material in various locations -- but not in Beirut. Sorry. We are working to have this course, and related materials, available via an internet course within two years. Keep posted.
Later bro
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
04/25/01 10:05 PM
RE: RE: the POWER of PRAISE and the POWER of PRAYER
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Revival Man: A few points
* I don't see how anyone can conclude ANYTHING about the GENUINENESS of a conversion on the basis of the MEANS by which one was converted. Some are converted by reason, others by the more "subjective" pull of the Holy Spirit. How the person came to trust in Christ is irrelevant to the question of whether they in fact trust in Christ.
* Whether this person has true God-life pulsating through them will be clear by whether or not their life had (or had not) begun a process of change. Are there, or are there not, signs of life.
* Did the theif on the cross meet all your "conditions"?
* Might you not be over-reacting to an over emphasis on subjective experiences in some Christian quarters? Have you ever been around Christians who over-emphasize cerebral matters at the expense of valuable subjective experiences? Are not both extremes to be avoided? Might not the devil try to get us to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" (something evangelicals are very prone to do) by giving pseudo-God experiences? ARe you not revealing that you have bought into this very tactic when you claim that "experiences are a dime a dozen"? Do you really want to say that the experience of the Holy Spirit is no different than the experience of LSD? I have experienced plenty of both, and I would say the Holy Spirit is a very distinct experience.
Night night
Doc
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
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