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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 12:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | Page 2 >>
MetroIceberg
03/06/01 10:37 PM
God in a box...
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Listen... I understand that theology is an effort to understand an eternal God. But my question is, why do we feel such a need to put God into such nice, neat, definable boxes, just so that He can fit into our own world view?
Here is the thought that I will put out:
God is God, and no matter what we think about Him, that is the ultimate truth. God will do what He will. Whether it makes sense to us or not, His will prevails above all. The answer to all questions about God is that He will do what He wills.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/06/01 11:08 PM
RE: God opened up
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I don't think we ALL have a need to make God well defined.
I have a sister who knows my love of theology and has told me
she doesn't like to read theology and philosophy because she
finds it uninteresting. She says she has a simple faith and is content in it. I know that she believes in and trusts the Lord,
thereby being born again, and is sealed with his Holy Spirit.
However I have found apologetics to be very instrumental in
breaking down the barriers that obstruct people's ability to
believe.
You say ALL questions about God can be answered by he will do what he wills.
How about this one. "I was raised Catholic but I haven't been to church since I got married. It's been 18 years. Now we have this little baby and my mother is pressuring me to take him to church and get him baptized. What would God want me to do?"
Or this one: "Your witness to me has brought me back to the faith.
I really respect all that you know about God. That's why I want to ask you this. Why did God kill my baby?"
The Scriptures say, be ready with an answer. As a chef my sister's witness shines out to her employees, and her small group. But as a
Theologian the Doc has many more answers and a lot more people coming to him with questions.
I find that the more I learn the bigger and more expansive God becomes
not the opposite.
be blessed
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MetroIceberg
03/06/01 11:32 PM
RE: RE: God opened up
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Or this one: "Your witness to me has brought me back to the faith. I really respect all that you know about God. That's why I want to ask you this. Why did God kill my baby?"
My answer to this question is that it is not a question about God. Rather it is a question that makes an asumption about God, and attempts to put the blame on God, and not on a fallen world. There has to be an underlying understanding that God always wants the best for His children, that God wants no evil to fall on His chosen. It is so easy for up to blame God for everything when we have misunderstandings about the nature of God.
The other question you had asked was about God's specific will, not His nature. Those kind of questions are personal, needing an answer either directly from God, or a brother/sister in Christ.
The questions that I was refering to were those like: Why does God do such and such? If God is this, how can this be true? Those are the kind of questions I was refering to.
Ok, perhaps I was a little too broad on my application of this thought of my imperfect, but God-centered brain. But I do believe that this does apply to the whole free-will dilema, and other such questions about the nature of God.
Please. I like this kind of feedback! Keep it coming!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
03/08/01 9:25 AM
RE: RE: RE: God opened up
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A couple things. They are mostly just thoughts:
I'm not sure, but I believe God said something in the Word about wanting to be in relationship with His people. Typically when two people have some sort of relationship, they try to share different aspects of their lives so the other can get to know who the other is. I know there is a difference between having a relationship with another human and haveing one with God, but don't you think that God wants us to know him? If so, don't you think He would explain Himself in terms that we could understand. In order for us to understand we must see things in terms that we know? When you look at the gospels, Jesus largely used parables and metaphores. Did He do it because He was bored and was simply trying to amuse Himself? I would rather doubt that. I would have to say that He was trying to explain spiritual matters in ways that a physical man could understand.
"It is so easy for up to blame God for everything when we have misunderstandings about the nature of God."
Of course we are going to blame God if we misunderstand His nature, but how can we understand His nature if we can't put it in terms that we are able to understand.
I hope that wasn't totally incoherant.
Mr. Indifference.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/08/01 7:36 PM
RE: God defined
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Hey Metro
Great post on the Clarification thread.
Here's another quote from Roger Olson:
"Doctrines were never understood as ends in themselves - ideas to be studied and believed for their own sakes. Rather, at their best the church fathers and Reformers saw the theological task as a survival project. Without doctirnes there would be no way to keep the gospel of Jesus Christ distinct and clear. Without a vision of the truth, proclamation of the gospel would be impossible. And without gospel proclamation, salvation would be unlikely. That is the line of reasoning that lay behind the great fathers' and Reformers' sometimes seemingly esoteric teachings."
So you guys are right dogma is essential and doctrine is important. I see how you can say they should be separate in one sense but aren't they inextricably tied together?
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MetroIceberg
03/08/01 9:39 PM
RE: Exactamundo!
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Springs, how right you are.
The only thing that I was stating is that the Gospel and theology have to be kept for their proper time. If one tries to bombard the unbeliever with all the notions, and nooks, and crannies of theology before they understand the first, most basic, and yet most essential part of theology; i.e. Grace, one will lose the battle far before it even starts. Also, as a response to those who are seeking as to why I asked why we, as temporal humans, feel the need to put God into a definable box, I say that I am probably first and foremost a theologian. I have been seeking the full and utter truth about the nature of God for many years, now. The main point that I'm trying to say here is that God, in the sense that we are limited in our capacity to understand the fullness of the nature of God, will always be just outside the fringe of that which we say we "know" about God. What we "know" about God today, may or may not be true tomorrow. Our understanding of who we, ourselves, are is also in such a never-ending state of flux.
No, indeed, what I am railing against, in my (my apologies about this here) verbose and sometimes convoluted way are those who get to a point in their faith where their understanding of the essence of God is "enough" and, even though it may not make sense with all they know about God, say that, "I know the nature of God." I will never say that I fully understand the nature of God. However, I will say that He has granted me an understanding that, though it is limited in its scope, fills in most of the blanks I need to know about Him. Don't get me wrong. Theology is a wonderful thing to develop. But in the end, when we get to the point that we say to our selves, "God, I stand in awe, amazed by what you are," we are willing, no, eager to say that we still do not understand God. God will do what He will. Though I have an understanding about Him, that truth will always supercede my understanding. When God decides to move, it will most likely make me rethink my understanding of Him. God is the ultimate definer of what He is, and what He can, or can't, do.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/08/01 10:56 PM
RE: RE: Exactamundo!
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Thanks Metro
I love being right.
And thank you for that great post.
MrIndifference I understood you perfectly.
Thank you both for your contributions to this site.
This is an excellent thread.
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
03/09/01 8:27 AM
RE: My favorite ...
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One of the main things I love about God is the fact that He remains Truth despite the seemingly paradoxical qualities of His Word.
Even though His yoke is easy and burden light, life seems hard. Even though He tells us to "seek and we will find" we must continually seek because we never find....(exhaustively). Even though we love...we never come to fullness in love. Why? I think because seeking, loving, asking, knocking etc. are all continuums. Only in Heaven when we seek Him in His temple will we come to fullness in knowledge and love. To me, this sets us up for a lifetime of relationship. I think about my own son always asking "why? how? what?" and (on the rare occasion when I can answer him) it spurs him on to seek deeper. So it is with God. When we come to 'reason together' I think He is pleased with our seeking and excited to reveal things to us, knowing (hehe)that we are delving into deeper relationship with Him. When iron sharpens iron, and one person sharpens the wits of another....I think He is pleased as well... knowing that we CAN'T put Him in a box cuz He doesn't fit.
ps. Springs, I love your first post on this thread. Besides having a ready answer, one of my favorite 'apologetic' verses is Jude 1:23 "...save others by snatching them out of the fire." I completely believe that when we have a concrete answer we can snatch others out of mind controlled cults, disbelief, doubt, anger at God, and fear.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/09/01 8:54 PM
RE: me too!
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Hey Proverbs thanks!!
The verse you quoted is one of my favorite verses too. I often think of it when I minister.
Your post was very good. I like your idea about how he delights in revealing himself and in our seeking of him. I think our understanding of his revelation is getting more and more clear with every generation. It's awesome.
be blessed
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
whasssuuuppp
03/10/01 12:44 AM
RE: RE: My favorite ...
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Hi Proverbs,
Thanks for your post, I hadn't thought in that way before. In fact, those verses you listed always sort of tugged at me, made me think, sort of frustrated me. Why does God say his yoke is easy and burden light? It's never appeared that way to me. And so on. You've given me something to think about. Thanks
peace out, ms. wassup
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Proverbs23_23
04/30/01 6:46 AM
one more thing...
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I don't know, maybe the key to understanding the light burden, is to rest in who we are in Him? When we invite Him to reside in us, we are asking Him to take over. The confusion and problems come when we try to take things on ourselves, apart from Him. I know in my life it's been easier when I 'see' Him in each situation with me. Sometimes I have to SEE myself handing things over to Him and releasing them. I tell myself to remember that His word is reality, and His promises are true...then I can release myself and depend on Him.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
pneumatika
03/16/01 12:34 PM
RE: RE: God defined
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Where can I find Dr. Olson? Does he state that he embraces the OV?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
03/16/01 5:38 PM
Dr. Roger E Olson
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I got Olson's quotes from his book 'The Story of Christian Theology'
He is a professor of theology at Bethel College in St. Paul MN.
He serves as editor of Christian Scholar's Review. (I got that from the dust cover )
I've heard good things about him but other than that I don't know much. So I won't even guess as to his theological stances.
springs
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BeckiMadvig
04/30/01 1:37 AM
RE: God in a box...
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MetroIceberg I totally agree with you on this. I try to understand God in my terms, but this is only the very surface of who He is. God is much more than we can every imagine. I cannot wait to actually get to see God and know Him completely! It is just too hard for us to understand that God is much more than we as finite beings could every imagine or have words for. The best way that I have been able to think of God is to say wow with awe and mouth hanging open. I can't even start to think about how wonderful He is because then I start to try to describe Him and put Him in a box.
In Him-
Becki
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
04/30/01 9:44 PM
whopse sorry about the double post
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i still dont know what the heck im doing when it comes to puters. check out the third of these posts for what i ment to send here. sorry. pride really does come before the fall.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
04/30/01 9:47 PM
Whopse again. sorry about the triple post
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see below hey someone out there who actually does know what they are doing: is there any way to delete a message once it is posted or is the best i can do to cover my incapable butt is to just edit it down to this junk? lil' help. p) ;(
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
04/30/01 9:39 PM
Is That teh Sound of Hubris Knoking?
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MetroIceberg writes:
“Listen... I understand that theology is an effort to understand an eternal God. But my question is, why do we feel such a need to put God into such nice, neat, definable boxes, just so that He can fit into our own world view?
Here is the thought that I will put out:
God is God, and no matter what we think about Him, that is the ultimate truth. God will do what He will. Whether it makes sense to us or not, His will prevails above all. The answer to all questions about God is that He will do what He wills.”
Wislawa the great deconstructer writes:
Let’s take a closer look at this shall we. As soon as MetroIceberg says, “Here is the thought that I will put out…” he enters the realm of theology. When he says, “God is God, and o matter what we think about Him, that is the ultimate truth” he has constructed his own, quite unoriginal, but certainly pious sounding box for God to be confined to. So in the same breath MetroIceberg has condemned theology and participated in it. He has condemned boxes and constructed his own. Not everyone believes that God is God. Not everyone believes that who he is remains independent of how we image him. How, may I humbly ask, are you going to defend your view MetroIceberg without appealing to the all-funky all-fascinating all-encompassing realm of theology? Besides this Jesus Himself commands us to worship God with all of our minds. Where better to do this than in the ultra creative locus of theological discourse? You may doubt the value of theology but you can only do so by using the language and the tools that theology provides you.
Penelope and the Giant Pomegranates
–Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
MetroIceberg
05/01/01 7:12 AM
RE: Is That the Sound of Hubris Knoking?
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Wislawa-
You understand the statement incorrectly. I am not condemning theology, the practice. What I am condemning is the fact that most theology is done at the risk of losing palpable objectivity. When one creates a "box" to stuff God in, one creates limits, bounds, and dimensions to put what most consider an infinite being in. Are you arguing the fact that God is limitless? Is God not omniscient? Omnipotent? Omnipresent? If you think thus, I believe that most classical theologists, and indeed much of the church, would call you, dare I say, a heretic. Now neither end of the duscussions of this site suppose anything other than God's limitlessness. Therefore, anything else stated would be seen as heretical. Now, heretical thinking is not bad. (Remember Luther's 96 Theses.) But when it goes against the grain of all that is stated in what is supposed to be our ultimate authority as to the being of God, the Bible, that kind of theology is treading on mighty thin ice. Being from MN I know how dangerous that is!
No, Wislawa, I am not condemning theology. I am condemning the Pharisitical view of many modern theologists that they are right and all else are wrong, without allowing any room to the contrary. I am trying to at least be open in my understanding of God. I don't want to fall into the trap of saying I "know" who and what God is. What is your excuse?
In Christ,
The Iceberg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MetroIceberg
05/01/01 7:18 AM
RE: Is That teh Sound of Hubris Knoking?
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Just as a further statement.
"Besides this Jesus Himself commands us to worship God with all of our minds. "
I always believed that Jesus said to love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, and strength.
Just a thought.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
05/02/01 11:53 PM
Clarification needed
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MetroIceberg—
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Here is my excuse YOUR POSTS ARE AMAZINGLY CRYPTIC! Or maybe everyone else can track with them and I’m the only one who doesn’t get it. Anyway here is what I need explained.
First of all I find this part really confusing. You wrote:
Are you arguing the fact that God is limitless? Is God not omniscient? Omnipotent? Omnipresent? If you think thus, I believe that most classical theologists, and indeed much of the church, would call you, dare I say, a heretic.
Correct me where I am wrong but it sounds like you are saying that people who believe God is limitless, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent are heretics. ? Or did you mean the opposite? That people who deny these are heretics. If the latter is the case then I would like to know why you think I deny any of these attributes. I may ask questions to highlight what I don’t get about say, God’s omnipotence or omni benevolence, but I don’t deny them.
Second you say: Now, heretical thinking is not bad. (Remember Luther's 96 Theses.)
Wislawa: If I thought Luther was a heretic I would definitely say his theology was bad. Someone might label him a heretic but hardly praise him for it. Those who praise him for the 95 (not 6) Theses do so because they view him as a reformer or something else but not a heretic.
Third you say: You understand the statement incorrectly. I am not condemning theology, the practice. What I am condemning is the fact that most theology is done at the risk of losing palpable objectivity.
Wislawa: Where did that come from? Nothing in your previous post sounded anything close to the ‘risk of losing palpable objectivity.
Fourth you say: No, Wislawa, I am not condemning theology. I am condemning the Pharisitical view of many modern theologists that they are right and all else are wrong, without allowing any room to the contrary. I am trying to at least be open in my understanding of God. I don't want to fall into the trap of saying I "know" who and what God is. What is your excuse?
Wislawa: a few comments. I think I can agree with what I can only assume was intended to be a ‘spirit of humility’ when it comes to theology, even though it came across as kind of arrogant the way you worded it. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt in the hope that you’ll return the favor. So while we may be able to shake hands and agree with each other about this ‘spirit of humility’ I have to wonder what kind of relationship is left if you are saying we can’t “know” who and what God is. So what’s the God you live and die for like? Ummmm, iduno. Doesn’t sound like much of a relationship. If someone is claiming their theology is right and can’t be wrong that’s one thing. Most theologians will gladly admit that their theologies are off somewhere—probably by a lot. But if they knew where they would also gladly correct it. That’s just the problem. We can’t possibly know where we are wrong so we do the best we can with what we’ve got. If you want to know what someone really believes watch their actions not their words. Even when you say others are Pharisees you are in action demonstrating that your theology is superior than theirs. This is not something you should be faulted for. No one can escape it. Buddhists are Buddhists because they believe Buddhism is superior than everything else. Christians are Christians because they believe Christianity is superior than Buddhism and everything else. I believe my theology is better than all the competing theologies. If I didn’t I wouldn’t hold it, rather I would hold whatever seemed superior to it. This doesn’t mean that I don’t know that it is off in many places, only that I’m doing my best with what I’ve got just like everyone else. Where did you see me seem otherwise?
Finally you wrote: When one creates a "box" to stuff God in, one creates limits, bounds, and dimensions to put what most consider an infinite being in.
Wislawa: perhaps it would clarify things if we defined our terms up front so as to avoid any unnecessary misunderstandings. I do believe that God is infinite. I do believe that is some respects God might be thought of as limitless. But I feel like many people misuse these terms and end up concluding that I am denying God’s infinitude. The way many people use the term, and they way it appears you are using it in your last post, ends up dissolving the concept of God (so that he can’t fit in any ‘box’). There are an infinite set of numbers between the number 7.3420985798257598275 and the number 7.9845798342579085. But the number 10 is not one of them. God is infinite yet there are things which are not God. To deny this is to embrace Pantheism. God’s power is infinite but that does not rule out competing powers. Gods knowledge is infinite yet that does not mean some ‘things’ couldn’t exist outside of this knowledge. (such what nonsensical propositions look like when actualized). Etc. So now the question appears to be weather theology or boxes threaten this infinitude. To some people merely insisting that there are things which are not God is already to insist on placing limitations on him. I think differently. To know something about who God is (which is what theology is all about) is to also know things about what God is not like. If you think this is a box or a limit than this is where we disagree. But I don’t suspect that you do, at least not in practice. If you are claiming that we can’t know God as he is when he is “by Himself” then I agree but don’t think that “God by Himself” is a truer God than the God with us of Emmanuel.
With hopes of clarification
& with wax covered watches
–Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
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