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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Icons and Imagination | Forum Quick Jump
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 8/3/2004 7:18 PM (GMT -6) |   | If our imaginative prayer shows us truth about our relationship with God, then it is real. It's kind of like Jesus' parables. Most where not factually accurate, but He never said they were. There was still important truth to be learned from them. When a person sees Jesus' healing or love or justice in his or her life by seeing how Jesus repairs past situations, it is real. Icons, at least many of them, portray truth from the Bible, and they do involve imagination (at least if we use Doc's definition of imagination, and this is his website, so that might just be appropriate). I, personally, am not that visual of a person, so visualizing my past and using visual aids in worship don't do much for me. I think there is the danger of worshiping the picture or the people pictured in an icon. But, if that danger is dealt with straightforwardly, I think it's ok. Same goes for imagination.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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sewerbob
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 8/4/2004 8:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Just as a bit of info:
Regarding the "Icons" article posted, I sent it off to several Orthodox freinds of mine who are big fans of imagination and contemplative prayer. They didn't like the article at all-at least not the part on imagination-and believed in fact that it did not reflect accurately the beliefs of the Orthodox church on Imagination....it was more the authors particular opnion and interpretation of how and Why to use Icons. Much of the article proved factual, but I guess it is not universally accepted that his views on imagintion are Orthodox views.
Just some stuff to think about.......
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Sewerbob, were their grandparents Orthodox; and if so, what was their practice. Then, they might be recent converts too; but not necessarily. (read on)
There is orthodoxy and orthopraxis (right practice), and their is the ethos of Orthodoxy. The "Orthodox world" is vast, and not homogenic. Parts of it are greatly influenced by Roman Catholicism since the treaties between Napoleon and Peter the Great. And there has always been things that challenged that core, but the core was preserved. And so, the exeptions don't cancel the rule. What the scholarly article says about the WHOLE of Orthodox tradition is true. And that there is a very conscious differentiation made in the article reflects just as strong a differentiation in Orthodoxy as contrasted to some RCC traditions. The "heart" of Orthodoxy is undoubtely and indisputably found in its monastisism. And the Latin tradition described is strongly contra to Orthodox monastisism. You can even draw a hard line there.
Of course your good friends personal experience may, and seems to, differ.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 9:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
This is a SHORT portion of a much larger article:
(I chose this portion because clarity of meaning is important for fine distinctions be remain clear.)
quote:
www.arimathea.co.uk/icons.htm
Icons and Imagination
Orthodox tradition is deeply suspicious of any attempt to give the imagination an important role in the spiritual life. This can seem very odd and even unreasonably restrictive to Christians familiar with the Roman Catholic techniques of mental prayer and discursive meditation, which make detailed and systematic use of the imagination -e.g. to imagine specific events in the life of Christ, which then provides the object-matter for meditation. Orthodox spirituality avoids any such practise. We are expected to read the Gospel accounts of the events in the life of Christ, to study the Fathers' commentaries on the Gospel texts, to think about them .... but not to attempt to imagine them in prayer. Using the imagination in prayer can lead to error of the gravest kind, when our own imaginative creations replace the reality, and we can even end up praying to our own mental fantasies.
The central reason for avoiding exercise of the imagination in prayer is theological. God is present everywhere. Christ is present by His Holy Spirit in the depth of the being of every Christian living the reality of Baptism into the death of Christ. If we live our Baptism, sealed with the Seal of the Spirit, then the Risen Christ lives in us, by His Holy Spirit, and we live the Risen life in the Spirit. We do not need to imagine Christ as present: He is present: we need to remind ourselves of His presence.
Icons can be effective in recalling us to the presence of Christ - the icon can serve as a reminder that He truly is here. Each specific icon type carries its own message about Him. The Pantocrator reminds us that the Christ who is present here is the Almighty, the Creator and Sustained of the Universe, the Upholder of All. The icon of Christ the Teacher reminds us that it is He who teaches, through the Gospels, the Church's proclamation of the Good News, through prayer, if our spiritual senses are awake to hear Him, through the people we meet, the situations we face. The icon of the Panteleimon, the All-Merciful, reminds us that nothing we have done is beyond His forgiveness; the Christ Who is present to us offers forgiveness and transformation, if we will accept it. The icon of the Crucified reminds us of the unlimited love of the Son of God who assumes our human nature in order to let us share His divine nature. He has entered into our humanity in its fullness, into our joys and sufferings, even into degradation and death; there is no part of our life where Christ is not. The Anastasis reminds us that Christ has descended into death to free the whole of humanity from the entrapping power of death, from the fear of death and from the compulsion to sin.
The iconographer has a grave responsibility to ensure his or her icons are not simply works of imagination. The iconographer exercises an ecclesiastical ministry in making icons. The icon must emerge from the mind and spirit of the Church, and must ensure that new icons truly represent the reality the Church knows, not some individual fantasy. Prayer, scriptural study, study of the Church's iconographical tradition and of the doctrine and canons on icons are as important in preparing oneself to make icons as technical study of the artistic processes involved.
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2004 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | sewerbob, here are some articles that do not point right to this, but do provide a bit broader background:
- Orthodox Worship -- http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7118.asp
- Worship -- http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7119.asp
- What is prayer? -- http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8634.asp
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