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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2004 5:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | This is a SHORT portion of a much larger article:
(I chose this portion because clarity of meaning is important for fine distinctions be remain clear.)
quote:
www.arimathea.co.uk/icons.htm
Icons and Imagination
Orthodox tradition is deeply suspicious of any attempt to give the imagination an important role in the spiritual life. This can seem very odd and even unreasonably restrictive to Christians familiar with the Roman Catholic techniques of mental prayer and discursive meditation, which make detailed and systematic use of the imagination -e.g. to imagine specific events in the life of Christ, which then provides the object-matter for meditation. Orthodox spirituality avoids any such practise. We are expected to read the Gospel accounts of the events in the life of Christ, to study the Fathers' commentaries on the Gospel texts, to think about them .... but not to attempt to imagine them in prayer. Using the imagination in prayer can lead to error of the gravest kind, when our own imaginative creations replace the reality, and we can even end up praying to our own mental fantasies.
The central reason for avoiding exercise of the imagination in prayer is theological. God is present everywhere. Christ is present by His Holy Spirit in the depth of the being of every Christian living the reality of Baptism into the death of Christ. If we live our Baptism, sealed with the Seal of the Spirit, then the Risen Christ lives in us, by His Holy Spirit, and we live the Risen life in the Spirit. We do not need to imagine Christ as present: He is present: we need to remind ourselves of His presence.
Icons can be effective in recalling us to the presence of Christ - the icon can serve as a reminder that He truly is here. Each specific icon type carries its own message about Him. The Pantocrator reminds us that the Christ who is present here is the Almighty, the Creator and Sustained of the Universe, the Upholder of All. The icon of Christ the Teacher reminds us that it is He who teaches, through the Gospels, the Church's proclamation of the Good News, through prayer, if our spiritual senses are awake to hear Him, through the people we meet, the situations we face. The icon of the Panteleimon, the All-Merciful, reminds us that nothing we have done is beyond His forgiveness; the Christ Who is present to us offers forgiveness and transformation, if we will accept it. The icon of the Crucified reminds us of the unlimited love of the Son of God who assumes our human nature in order to let us share His divine nature. He has entered into our humanity in its fullness, into our joys and sufferings, even into degradation and death; there is no part of our life where Christ is not. The Anastasis reminds us that Christ has descended into death to free the whole of humanity from the entrapping power of death, from the fear of death and from the compulsion to sin.
The iconographer has a grave responsibility to ensure his or her icons are not simply works of imagination. The iconographer exercises an ecclesiastical ministry in making icons. The icon must emerge from the mind and spirit of the Church, and must ensure that new icons truly represent the reality the Church knows, not some individual fantasy. Prayer, scriptural study, study of the Church's iconographical tradition and of the doctrine and canons on icons are as important in preparing oneself to make icons as technical study of the artistic processes involved.
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Sahid
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| Posted 7/24/2004 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We are expected to read the Gospel accounts of the events in the life of Christ, to study the Fathers' commentaries on the Gospel texts, to think about them .... but not to attempt to imagine them in prayer. Using the imagination in prayer can lead to error of the gravest kind,
We should use all the resources at our disposal in the sevice of God. There's a story in the Gospel accounts that deals with exactly that. Matthew 25:14-30. Here are the highlights: "I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours." But his master answered and said to him, "You wicked, lazy slave... Take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents." The only way our creativity could be anything but a gift from God would be for it to be a result of the fall. But God made us in His own image before the fall, and He is called Creator. When God gives us a gift and we choose to ignore it out of caution, we betray our distrust of God.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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| Posted 7/24/2004 7:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
We are expected to read the Gospel accounts of the events in the life of Christ, to study the Fathers' commentaries on the Gospel texts, to think about them .... but not to attempt to imagine them in prayer. Using the imagination in prayer can lead to error of the gravest kind,
We should use all the resources at our disposal in the sevice of God. There's a story in the Gospel accounts that deals with exactly that. Matthew 25:14-30. Here are the highlights: "I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours." But his master answered and said to him, "You wicked, lazy slave... Take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents." The only way our creativity could be anything but a gift from God would be for it to be a result of the fall. But God made us in His own image before the fall, and He is called Creator. When God gives us a gift and we choose to ignore it out of caution, we betray our distrust of God.
It makes sense to me, that the creator would use the imagination that He created us with to speak to us, to allow us to relate to Him, and to worship Him. I believe that is where much of the prophetic, and worship through the arts - comes from. He knew what He was doing when He created us this way. It was intentional.
This is not to say that prayer and worship must consist of the Word as well, and our imaginations must be rooted and grounded in the Word, and be consistent with the picture of the Father that we have been given in Jesus Christ.
I don't know why we have to go to extreme "camps" in this. It seems to me that going to one extreme or the other, results in divisiveness among believers, and that is a ploy of the enemy. He wants us to judge each other, and to lose heart. He cannot have our soul, but he tried to trip us up, and when he does we are ineffective in loving Him, and loving others.
Sometimes I think we (myself included) forget what this is really all about. It is about loving Him, then loving others with the love He has given us. That should keep us busy MOST of the time!
God Bless!
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
The only way our creativity could be anything but a gift from God would be for it to be a result of the fall. But God made us in His own image before the fall, and He is called Creator. When God gives us a gift and we choose to ignore it out of caution, we betray our distrust of God.[/font=Book Antiqua]
I must critique your statement, Sahid. The Biblical view of things is "creation, fall, redemption." Your statement says that "only" if creativity is "a result of the fall" would it render harm. That is false. LOTS of things that are created "good," and created "very good" render harm! Lots. (I'm sure you know that; and realize where this is going now.) Imagination can be used "thetically" or "antithetically" my Reformed Calvinist friends will say: God-willed or against-God's-will. The "structure" they say, is "creational." But the use, they call "direction" is either with God or away from God. And they are not the only one's saying it.
Jo-anne, it is fine to be optomistic about the "use" of good gifts -- "all good things come down from the Father of Lights." But we must NEVER underestemate the power of sin. The dangers, especially for imagination are HUGE. Artist's know this. Those who council about drugs and alcohol do too: drugs are a big part of lots of religions for this very reason.
But those two points aside -- that (1) creativity does not have to be intriniscally evil to be dangersous, and that (2) imagination is a big part of lots of false religions -- the MIAN point of that article probably needs repeating. It is THEOLOGICAL, literally:
quote:
"The central reason for avoiding exercise of the imagination in prayer is theological. God is present everywhere. Christ is present by His Holy Spirit in the depth of the being of every Christian living the reality of Baptism into the death of Christ. If we live our Baptism, sealed with the Seal of the Spirit, then the Risen Christ lives in us, by His Holy Spirit, and we live the Risen life in the Spirit. We do not need to imagine Christ as present: He is present: we need to remind ourselves of His presence."
Orthodox Christians greet and respond to each other with statements of reality that differ for different parts of the liturgical calendar. You can guess the season where they say "Christ is born!," and answer "Glorify Him!" At Pascha (Which only in English is "Easter.") they say "Christ is Risen!," and respond with "He is risen indeed!" But the whole rest of the year they say "CHRIST IS AMONG US." and respond with the affirmation "HE IS AND EVER SHALL BE!"
The point is that Christianity is REALITY and not imagination.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
This is not to say that prayer and worship must ... be consistent with the picture of the Father that we have been given in Jesus Christ.
Now, here is a good statement! Thanks, Jo-Anne.
It reminds me of something Greg Boyd refered to on another thread. He finally QUALIFIED (after a view exchanges) that the Modern idea of imagination is entirely unbiblical when applied to God. But that using one's creative-rational powers (My own term -- as an artist I know that the "inspiration" notion is pagan, and that nothing good comes except through hard work, disciplined focus, and dedication!) applied to Revelation one will express from that solid foundation undreampt of (literally) variety, exuberance and vivacity. (The variety among icons, even those produced industrially in Byzantium, is case in point!) It is the DANGER, and a real one, that should accompany any consideration of "imagination" as the popular, the modern notion, is not something I'd 'let my guard down' about. Greg's distinction is a good one!
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | We need a more biblical and realistic view of God.
And that realism needs to be strengthened. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
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| Posted 7/25/2004 11:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I must critique your statement, Sahid. The Biblical view of things is "creation, fall, redemption." Your statement says that "only" if creativity is "a result of the fall" would it render harm. That is false.
I would like the point out the contradiction in what you say and what you do. You say imagination is dangerous and should be avoided. But you do use your imagination when you slightly change my arguement to make it easier to refute. My statement says that only if creativity is a result of the fall would it render harm? Hold on; let me check... Nope. It's not there. You've born false witness against me.
What's so frustrating is that I try to address the issues that are brought up, but others would rather distort what I say. Why? There are tons of possible reasons, and none of them are good.
So point 1: "Creativity does not have to be intriniscally evil to be dangersous." Sadly, this has nothing to do with the time of day. Everyone agrees. Yeah, I could argue that the sky is blue, and I'd be right every time. But I'd be talking to myself. I didn't say creativity is not dangerous. But your icons and church fathers could be taken the wrong way. They're dangerous, and you still use them. If we are afraid of everything that's dangerous, we have no faith in God.
I love point 2: "Imagination is a big part of lots of false religions." Do I really need to even dignify this with a response? Yeah, I think the obvious needs to be stated. Eating, prayer, fasting, reading, singing, dancing, meditating, giving, thinking, and laying on hands are all "big part of lots of false religions". We gonna throw those away too? The Bible says we should do them from time to time. There are even verses about seeing visions and setting our minds on the things above. Now if you make imagination to mean imagining what is false, then ok. The Bible doesn't tell us to dwell on lies. But imagining God healing, loving, forgiving, and restoring is not a lie. It's real. I'll grant you that the role of imagination is debatable, but that we are commanded to do certain things that people in false religions do is not.
When you talk about Doc finally qualifying what he means by imagination you are being misleading. All the talk about imagination on this forum was initiated by his books and teaching. Now I've never heard him teach, but I have read Seeing is Believing. I personally got tired of the repetition. He qualifies his definition of imagination over and over. Our imagination isn't all we use. It must be consistent with the Bible, Jesus, and the Spirit. You seem to assume otherwise.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 1:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid, I'm sorry you were offended.
I can see what you meant your post to mean. Now I understand what you meant, AND I agree with it. You make a good point! But, when I read it this is what it meant to me: (You actually wrote)"The only way our creativity could be anything but a gift from God would be for it to be a result of the fall." I took "imagination" to refer to the nature of creativity, and not individual acts of imagining. It seems to me now that you are refering to those individual acts -- that only if those individual acts are influenced by the fall do they result in bad stuff. But I took you to be making a categorical statement. Taken as such the only way that imagination could result in "bad stuff" would be for it to be bad by nature.
I wish your tone were different. I'm afraid. Please don't let communication slide into the gutter.
You remarked, then, "You say imagination is dangerous and should be avoided." But THAT is exactly the opposite of what I DID SAY. I think my post was clear enough -- teaching art ten years in Evangelical and Reformed colleges hones one's perspective -- so I hope that you will give proper attention the balanced remarks that I did make.
quote:
Imagination can be used "thetically" or "antithetically" my Reformed Calvinist friends will say: God-willed or against-God's-will. The "structure" they say, is "creational." But the use, they call "direction" is either with God or away from God.
Nothing in imagination is bad. There are just good and bad times and good and bad ways for exercising it.
I did not intentionally changeyour arguement to make it easier to refute. I was troubled by the implication that criticizing one expression of creativity might caste an ill-applied pail on all creativity. I value creativity far to much. And as something that God has given us I wanted to "go to bat" for it. That that I have done.
I have tried to answer your post with dignity. I understand your feeling of having had your post misrepresented. (And in fact you did that to me too.) But lets either respond nicely, or not at all.
Again, I'm sorry to have offended you. I did not mean to.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 1:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The central reason for avoiding exercise of the imagination in prayer is theological. God is present everywhere. . . . We do not need to imagine Christ as present: He is present: we need to remind ourselves of His presence.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 2:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Commune with your hearts...and be silent. Be still, and know that I am God. (Psalm 4:4, 46:10) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 2:03 PM (GMT -6) | | If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. (John 15:7)
And whatever you ask in prayer, if you have faith, you will receive. (Matthew 21:22, cf Luke 18:1-8) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 2:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"How many times have I prayed for what seemed a good thing for me, and not leaving it to God to do, as He knows best, what is useful for me. But having obtained what I begged for, I found myself in distress because I had not asked for it to be, rather, according to God's will..." (St. Nilus of Sinai, 5th c., Texts on Prayer)
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? ... God's temple is holy, and that temple you are. (I Corinthians 3:16-17, cf. Deuteronomy 30:9-14, Psalms 139:7-14, Romans 10:5-13) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 2:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with signs too deep for words. And He who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit be- cause the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)
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sometimesisquint
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| Posted 7/25/2004 2:39 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 3:06 PM (GMT -6) | | I deleated that, Mike.
It was meant as humour. I took it off the board. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | We need a more biblical and realistic view of God.
And that realism needs to be strengthened.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | sometimesisquint, I would like to seriously consider the topic of this thread, and the scriptures I posted. What do your posts have to do with that. Or, WHERE do they belong besides here? (I'd prefer you remove them.)
So, what do YOU have to contribute that pertains DIRECTLY to worship and prayer? Please share. Anything from church, or your devotions getting ready for Sunday worship during the week. Anything personally significant YOU can share?
(Your turn.)
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sometimesisquint
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| Posted 7/25/2004 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
sometimesisquint, I would like to seriously consider the topic of this thread, and the scriptures I posted.
Go for it chief.
quote:
What do your posts have to do with that. Or, WHERE do they belong besides here? (I'd prefer you remove them.)
Define relevance.
quote:
So, what do YOU have to contribute that pertains DIRECTLY to worship and prayer? Please share. Anything from church, or your devotions getting ready for Sunday worship during the week. Anything personally significant YOU can share?
I have previously, but this is pertinent to specific comments you made in THIS conversation. Similarly, this current response is pertinent to your previous response.
I will say that I'm getting close to selling out completely to this open view position, due in large part to the conversations (current and archived) on this site. Hmmm...let's see, I also started reading Dr. Boyd's Is God To Blame? Regardless I thought this thread was a bit more specifically centered than one constituting a vague reference to my personal experiences with "worship and prayer".
quote:
(Your turn.)
Already? What are you looking for. I'm sorry that I took a cheap shot. However, judging from your demeanor on this site, it seems that you could use a good cheap shot every once in a while.  Hopefully you'll take that for what it's worth. Which is not much apparently. 
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
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When life gives you dish rags, you make...a kite that won't fly in the rain. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Maybe you will ahve something to contribute tomorrow.
I'm reading Frank Laubach's classic, "Prayer: the Mightiest Force in the World." It belonged to my dad who is 82 and in need of prayer. It was written when the world was falling apart (true today too), and has much to say about prayer.
Frank C. Laubach, Prayer: the Mightiest Force in the World. Fleming H. Revell Company. New York. 1946.
and
Googling a bit:
quote:
TWENTY TO CHANGE THE WORLD
Master Book List Of Works On Prayer
www.ox.compsoc.net/~gemini/daniel_files/prayer.htm
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/25/2004 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sometimesisquint
...I thought this thread was a bit more specifically centered than one constituting a vague reference to my personal experiences with "worship and prayer".
That's the senerio for icons: prayer and worship of God. And I think that its worthwhile to make this real, and not just a discussion of hypothticals.
Laubach, in the book I just mentioned, said that the world needed saving. Atomic Bomb, threat of WW3...he meant it in the most literal sense. And instead of counting how many Christians might be 'dedicated' enough to pray, he counted hundreds of thousands who NEEDED to pray: lost kids in war, lost limbs and livelyhood, families torn apart. They needed to pray 'cause that was all that was left. Those would be among his prayer warriers. Their prayers are real.
Prayer and worship have to be real.
I read today the wisdom passed on among Christians that our whole lives should be IN Christ. That we should live our lives, as much as we can... quote:
are called to be watchful of anything that might draw us away from new life in Christ and, ultimately to deny or refuse it. . . .care to discern and to fight against whatever and whoever may draw them away from Life.
. . .
All of our life, all that we do and say should not exist outside of our rest in Christ. For by incorporating all of life into Christ’s active rest we will become bearers of the Holy Spirit...
What's repeating in my head is the fact that if I'm concerned with all kinds of extra things in life my affections will be spread all over the place, and my prayers won't be as effective. Lots of passions, entertainments, ambitions dissipate affections and dedication. Seems right. So... what goes on before prayer would then naturally affect prayer.
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Sahid
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| Posted 7/25/2004 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We are expected to read the Gospel accounts of the events in the life of Christ, to study the Fathers' commentaries on the Gospel texts, to think about them .... but not to attempt to imagine them in prayer. Using the imagination in prayer can lead to error of the gravest kind,
quote:
You remarked, then, "You say imagination is dangerous and should be avoided." But THAT is exactly the opposite of what I DID SAY. I think my post was clear enough -- teaching art ten years in Evangelical and Reformed colleges hones one's perspective -- so I hope that you will give proper attention the balanced remarks that I did make.
So, am I to assume that when you started this post you where disagreeing with the article you quoted? You think the Orthodox view is wrong and we should attempt to imagine Christ and the Fathers' commentaries?
And you've once again done more of the same. No one is saying that the Spirit doesn't intercede, or our bodies are not a temple, or that God wont answer prayer, or that we should not be still and know that He is God, or that He is not really present. No one is saying that. In fact these things give us more reason to think that we should use imagination in prayer. If none of them were true then we would be imagining lies. As it stands, our imaginations, when guided by the Spirit and scripture, correspond to reality.
Look at how Jesus showed the Kingdom to people. He painted pictures for them, told stories. He involved their imaginations. When we talk to God we are expected to imagine a good shepherd, a vine, a bridegroom. Jesus isn't going to tell us all about a purple elephant and then punish us when we imagine a purple elephant. He was smart. If He merely wanted us to have dry ideas, He could have worked to acheive that goal. If He wanted our imaginations uninvolved when praying, He did a pretty bad job. But Jesus doesn't do jobs badly.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/26/2004 4:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Leave off the ad hominem. This board is about sharing and discussion.
-
As per the lead quote, it is very wise:
quote:
We are expected to read the Gospel accounts of the events in the life of Christ, to study the Fathers' commentaries on the Gospel texts, to think about them .... but not to attempt to imagine them in prayer. Using the imagination in prayer can lead to error of the gravest kind,
That in no way reduces the task and calling of imagination in our lives. It just says that prayer and God's word are things not solely within ourselves, and they have a different nature, diversity and complexity than our own thoughts and emotions.
Any suggestion that this involves an issue of chosing one and pitching the other is false. They both have their place. But each place also has its own nature, diversity and complexity.
There is a trend now days to take the Gospel narrative and portray them in drama. My wife has done that, and friends. It's great. But it should NOT be used in-place-of the scripture reading in church. THAT reading IS GOD SPEAKING TO US and not us conveying words to each other. (A different nature, diversity and complexity.) This link is poinient: (in the Protestant Reformed e-zine Credenda Agenda, called "Close That Bible" -- www.credenda.org/issues/14-3liturgia.php)
To everything there is a season!
quote:
From "Close that Bible:
In Scripture, it is clear that believers are supposed to listen when the Word is delivered—listen, and not read along. . . . Just as important is the corporate liturgical dimension of hearing, for when we assemble to hear the Word of God, we are not receiving private revelations. Worship is a public and corporate act, and the reading of the Word is as public and corporate as any other part of the liturgy. In fact Public reading and common hearing take priority over all the other common acts of the congregation, and this emphasizes that all other actions in worship are responses to the Lord's word. He always takes the initiative, forming us as a community of hearing, before we respond as a community of speaking. In this way, the liturgical order replicates the order of life, for we only speak after we have been spoken to; we address others only when we have been addressed. When members of a congregation read along with the public reading, the corporate character of the liturgy of the Word is destroyed. A community of hearing can only occur if we are all listening together to a single voice. Without that common hearing, we might be assembled in one place, but we remain fractured in our individuality. Of course, this problem is greatly exacerbated by the fact that the Bibles open before us don't all have the same words. . . . When our Lord is speaking to us, let's remember our manners, close that book, and listen.
Imagination comes AFTER we've heard the word. We imagine the kinds of changes that Live Word might profer in us. We imagine based on, as you yourself said, "guided by ... scripture" There is an ORDER of leading and following.
Imagination is US. But what is pointed to in that lead quote comes before what is individually mine or yours. There is an order of leading and following. And the Written word leads. And the community of the Church leads. We are not to go off alone by ourselves. We should not expect to receive from the Spirit something totally other than what the Spirit has given all along. That is the foundation of the Scripture Cannon identified by the Church.
Sahid said: "Look at how Jesus showed the Kingdom to people. He painted pictures for them, told stories. He involved their imaginations." Of course. No one is saying otherwise. After reading the parable of the Good Sameritan we use our imaginations to examine ourselves. We use our imaginations to build pictures of what hospice is, to compare ourselves to that. After, we, realizing that Christ is the Good Sameritan (could also be Paul) revisite portions of the parable to feel the elements that we should have gotten the first time, but didn't.
But compared to how the word "imagination" is used today, we also say that we DON'T imagine extra stuff and add to the narrative. Doing that can quickly lead us off point. The parable's, because they are parables, have one simple point. They are not analogies (Like Tolkein and Lewis). "Imagination" can lead us off point. Being "on point" is everything. As parables the stories lay naked until applied to the life of the hearer. They nag until "put on."
We don't imagine what the "Pearl of Great Price" looked like unless we want to run away from its implications! Our imaginative powers ARE useful though in helping us 'count the cost' of what all we must make less of in our lives to aquire it. Like the barn builder, we 'count the cost.' Imagination after hearing it is useful if in thinking about barns we realize anything that is helpful to us in reapproaching the scripture itself. Barns have many parts, and all parts interact, and extraneous things make them unstable. But those imaginative elements are examinations of ourselves, not the scripture. Again, there is an ORDER of leading and following.
Again: We are expected to read the Gospel accounts of the events in the life of Christ, to study the Fathers' commentaries on the Gospel texts, to think about them...
Sure, thinking involves imagination. But there is an ordering. And there is a time to lay aside.
Prayer of the heart can be reduced to just one word: "Jesus." And it can even contain no other thoughts than just the presence of the one praying and the one prayed too. Fancy analogies--helpful ones--learned in hymns can be paired back to just a few powerful lines from a Psalm. A fancy challace can be replaced by one simple, and only the elements themselves attended to.
In Peter Kreft's book about the conversation between Huxley, Kennedy and Lewis, in the end the light came. All other arguements, reasons, justifications were relevant. While imagination is a capacity that is God-created, and is part of the Cultural Mandate God gave us in Genesis, there are times in the Christian's life when imagination is not appropriate.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/26/2004 8:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
We are not to go off alone by ourselves. We should not expect to receive from the Spirit something totally other than what the Spirit has given all along.
Are you saying that the Spirit wont speak to individuals alone? Didn't Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Elijah, and John receive from the Spirit while alone? For thousands of years the Spirit has been talking to people who "go off alone by themselves. He even uses their "imaginations in prayer". (And no, I didn't say they were imagining something that is not real.)
Lots of people like to be counter-culture and talk about emphasizing community over individuality, but it's not biblical. Jesus spent lots of time in community, but He also spent lots of time by Himself. So did almost every other godly, biblical character that gets more than five chapters written about him.
You have to have both community and individuality. If we're going to emphasize only one, let's go with individuality. It is foundational to community. You can't have a redeemed community without redeemed individuals.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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