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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 6:26 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
avalonia3
01/25/01 9:47 AM
Curiousity about Witchcraft... and Christianity.
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Hello, I am a follower of the Old God and the Goddess. Which makes me the 'enemy' - but I would like to know what modern Christians like yourselves think about Witchcraft.
Do you think its evil?
How do you think it differs from Christianity?
How do you think our festivals compare to that of yours?
Looking forward to your responses!
Posted Originally From: CoolBoard.com
ghost-dog-girl
01/25/01 10:44 AM
RE: Curiousity about Witchcraft... and Christianity.
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Welcome avalonia. To be honest, I don't know hardly anything about Witchcraft so I don't have much of an opinion about any of your questions--certainly not an informed one. I guess I believe that Witchcraft is powerful, but I would not trust the source of your power like I trust the source of mine. Beyond that, I will have to leave it others to give more adequate replies to your questions.
Peace, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Wislawa
01/25/01 6:21 PM
RE: Curiousity about Witchcraft... and Christianity.
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Hello and welcome Avolonia3. I like G-D-G do not know much about Witchcraft so I won't speak for all of contemporary Christians (or at least not the knowledgeable ones). The truth is I probably do represent well the average contemporary Christian in regards to Witchcraft because I don’t think that many of us really know very much about it but we do harbor rather uniformed intuitions which may or may not be on target. So I’ll give a crack at your Q’s just don’t project them onto other Christians.
DO YOU THINK ITS EVIL?
-The short answer: probably yes.
-The slightly longer and more qualified answer: Evil is a word that I believe is often misused because the emphasis is placed on the intention of the term rather than the extension of the term. Dr. Boyd (the professional theologian who’s site is co-hosing this discussion board and who posts some cool stuff too) points out, correctly I think, in his book “God at War” that we never experience evil abstractly. Evil always always always manifests itself in our lives in concrete ways so it demands to be dealt with concretely. One of the consequences of this truth is that we can only ascribe the attribute ‘evil’ to particular things and not general things. So I would say that Witchcraft in general would be evil if and only if it deals with particular evil actions, thought patterns, emotional states, spiritual happenings etc. If so it would fall under the extension of the term evil. Once again I don’t know this to be the case but I believe the majority of contemporary Christians suspect this to be the case.
HOW DO YOU THINK IT DIFFERS WITH CHRISTIANITY?
-We are caught up in a war that is bigger than we are. Christians weapons of this warfare are not of this world. Witchcraft, I believe, draws upon worldly weapons. By worldly I don’t mean unspiritual. The weapons of Christ are to out love the advisory’s evil. We do not necessarily view those who practice Witchcraft as our enemy; rather we view our enemy as Satan and his angels. Some of those who practice Witchcraft may or may not be captives of our enemy. Our goal, which we are assured of achieving, is to utterly defeat the enemy but that does not mean that we are trying to defeat you or others who practice Witchcraft! Rather the goal is to liberate all captives everywhere. In truth we view ourselves as former captives who are learning to how to live in the freedom of love.
HOW DO YOU THINK OUR FESTIVALS COMPARE TO YOURS?
-Actually I think that many Christians don’t understand the true purpose or meaning of festivals in general. I wouldn’t locate the error within contemporary Christians so much as I would contemporary Western culture at large. I think that the fundamental problem lies in our view of time. We treat time as a commodity to be divided and spent. It is thought of as raw material that we make something of, waste, fill, or leave empty. In a festival (Christian or non-Christian) the ontology of time changes-it is what the German philosopher (also a Lutheran Christian) Hans-Georg Gadamer calls ‘fulfilled time’ or time on it’s own terms. It is like the tide, something that we are pulled into rather than a commodity that renews itself every 24 hours. This problem seems to plague our own time and culture particularly. In other ages and in other cultures the concept of the festival seems to have been better understood. Witchcraft from what I gather incorporates several pagan elements so perhaps you understand the function of festivals IN GENERAL better than most Christians, perhaps not? As to particular festivals within Christianity and Witchcraft I would need to know more about your festivals to make a decent comparison.
Many Christians might not make that big a deal out of Witchcraft because they are functional materialists, others might make to big of a deal out of it because they are functional Gnostics. Maybe the best thing to do is to ask you to share with us exactly what Witchcraft is. Is it like Wicken? Is it the same thing? What do you know about Christianity? How would you answer your own question? How do those who practice Witchcraft view Christians and Christ and spiritual warfare? Perhaps you should educate us so that I won’t look so silly the next time I’m asked these questions. Thanks for the Q’s and welcome again.
Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Kassiopeia
01/26/01 9:39 AM
RE: I'm Curious Too! (ohh!! NO!!)
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Hello Avalonia! What a pleasant surprise to see you here on this coolboard! I’ve been periodically following the discussion on the other one you frequent for the last couple weeks. And I guess you beat me to putting in a word in ‘enemy’ territory. Bravo!
While I consider myself a christian, I, like you am interested in witchcraft. Not so long ago, I was seriously considering witchcraft and its cousins because these belief systems seemed to be more accepting and accommodating to my own mystical bent. In fact a friend of mine once told me I have more in common with the pagans than I do with the christians. But as I am sure you know, the easier path is not always the right one.
As to your questions…
Do I think witchcraft is evil?
First, it depends on what kind of witchcraft you are talking about. From my limited knowledge of witchcraft, as practiced by solitaires and earth-based religions, I have not encountered any with aggressively evil intent. The discussion over witchcraft as evil often centers on the issue of power and casting spells etc. Solitaires and people practicing earth-based religion often use their power to cast spells or channel energy for the benefit of others and that is the most noble cause. Most say that if it doesn’t harm anyone then it is a good spell. At worst this type of witchcraft has been self serving or trickery--like the guy I know who cast a spell on a house of women, because he wanted to know if any of them were interested in him. Not entirely noble but ‘harmless.’ (I would disagree that this was harmless) I would also say that I would attain to a higher standard than ‘if it doesn’t harm anyone.’ Love for others would be that higher standard.
Then there is this other witchcraft I’ve encountered that is aggressively evil. People of this persuasion have intentionally cursed others and brought harm to them. The people I’ve talked to who have been involved in this sort of thing, have since amended their ways—But truth is I don’t understand this lack of good will at all, as I am sure many witches don’t. Currently, I am trying to understand the connection (or the lack there-of) between this type of witchcraft and what I described formerly.
How do I think witchcraft differs from Christianity?
(speaking of witchcraft from a earth-based religious bent and its difference with christianity)
Truly, I have observed an awful lot of similarities. On your other forum where Darkstar and everyone else was talking about Reiki experiences. You didn’t seem to be too keen on that subject but Christianity totally has that sort of thing! Some christians wouldn’t concur but Darkstar described the very thing that I’ve witnessed and experienced in my church setting.
As for the differences--for me details matter. Earth-based religions and witchcraft emphasize the ‘Deity in everything’ or ‘all things are God.’ The energy and power that resides in them is seen and appreciated. I too acknowledge and appreciate the Deity in everything and the power and energy that accompanies these things. But the difference is that I believe the Deity in all life forces is a reflection of or a piece of the Deity outside of all things (even the greatest of these life forces), for two reasons. 1) Because it is only as the Deity is also found outside of a thing that allows each thing (physical or non-physical) to be in harmony with all other things. The world would not hang together if there were no Deity outside of all things. 2) Because something outside of all things had to be the source of all things. This Deity (the Deity above all other Deities) is the creator of all other things for as we have discovered we cannot create ourselves, nor has any other Deity done so (that I know of). Plus, we also are experiencing the ‘winding down” of all things. The scientific term for this is entropy. Something had to put this life force in everything for if things could put the life force into themselves they would still be doing so. And the world would not be winding down (dying) as we speak. The death within everything and the desire for life speaks to the infinite source of power of life outside ourselves.
I don’t want to minimize the Deity in everything but I also don’t want to minimize the Deity outside of everything. It is the unifying Deity outside of everything and within all things that I acknowledge and give reverence to. And in doing so I also honor everything that has life force.
I hope this is not too convoluted. As I have witnessed you are very bright and analytical so I hope my thoughts will incite a few musings. Your controversial side may lend itself to pointing out disagreements you may have—I’m game for that. We can only learn together. As I said before, I am very interested in talking about Wiccan, Pagan, beliefs and practices and I would love to hear back from you. In my honest opinion--before the witness of my fellow Christians--I must say that many Christians could stand to learn more than a thing or two from the Wiccans and Pagans. As a whole I have found that followers of the craft have a sense of perception and awareness of their environment that puts most people to shame.
So, if I may ask...
How long have you been practicing and what has brought you to your path?
And I am assuming you believe in avalon, how is avalon different from the christian heaven?
I apologize if this is longer than you expected but I was just too excited to keep it short. It’s hard to meet witches so I jump on any opportunity I get. (Many of them like to hide in the broom closet)!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/26/01 12:07 PM
RE: RE: I'm Curious Too! (ohh!! NO!!)
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Kassiopeia: Please do not take offense at this but I find it rather incredious that someone who considers themselves a Christian would also be interested in witchcraft (I assume you mean as an art or practice, something to be partipate in). Perhaps, you would be so kind as to define what Christianity means to you. Considering that the Bible pretty clearly condemns witchcraft and that it also shows that, spiritually there are basically two powers God and Satan, warring with each other, it would seem logical that, if something is not from God, then it must be from Satan. And, in reality, there are no benign powers. Thanks. John 17:3 Harold PS. It should also be noted that, in Christianity, there is only one path. Jesus Christ.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
01/26/01 1:20 PM
What do Witches think of Christianity?
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avalonia, Between wislawa, kassiopeia (welcome, by the way!), and writerdad, I'd say these posts represent a broad range of Christian responses to Witchcraft. I must say I am eager to hear your answers to wislawa's and kassiopeia's questions. Let me add a question of my own--what do modern Witches like yourself think of Christianity? Peace, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Kassiopeia
02/01/01 10:19 AM
YO
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Writerdad and whomever is shocked,
No offense taken (giggle)
My priority here was to interact and connect with Avalonia. I understand I did so at the risk of being misunderstood or criticized by possibly everyone on this site but if Avalonia had responded it would have all been worth it. Even for her to read my post and see there is someone who calls herself Christian somewhere who takes a great interest in her as well as the things she holds most dear (her Paganism), makes it worth it to me. (I am not patronizing, just trying to be real). To do any less is to curse and not to bless, to hate and not love.
I am not afraid of witches and pagans. In fact I do my best to seek them out. I love the type of people who are drawn to the Pagan faith. I find them much more interesting than most. To hang out with them is not automatically to become like the worst circulating rumor about them. To attempt to speak their language and talk about the things that interest them is what love calls anyone to do. Avalonia showed her love and kind regard toward us by posting here. I applaud her, for to her this is truly enemy territory and a cesspool of hate.
I also mean no offense in anything I say.
I still want to talk to you, Avaloooooniaaaaa.......!!
I think your cool and the best thing that has happened to this site. Oh well, If you don’t respond I hope we’ll talk elsewhere. Hope your cronies are loving and open minded enough to not devour ME because of my Christian persuassion.
Blessings
Kassiopeia
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/01/01 11:01 AM
RE: YO
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Kassiopeia: To say one disagrees with another doesn't mean that one does not love them, nor does it mean that one hates them. I certainly believe that those who believe in pagan gods or witchcraft are wrong and, as the Bible declares, stand in judgment by God (as I do many other faiths, and as I was before I found saving faith in Jesus). That does not mean that I do not love them nor that I do not care what happens to them. Jesus came that we may have fellowship with the Father and we are called to compell the world to come to him by showing his love to all the lost. However, that does not mean we identify with them to the extent that we compromise our faith and that is why I asked the question. Your statement seemed to imply that your view of Christianity was not in line with the historical view, and considering that many people have many differing view of what a Christian is, that is why I asked for further charification (something you did not provide, I might add). I find different faiths in general interesting, yet I am also clear as to what I believe when asked. So I am still interested in how you define your Christian faith. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Kassiopeia
02/01/01 1:20 PM
RE: RE: YO
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WriterDad,
I Did not intend to suggest that you hated only you can be the judge of that. I only intended to say that I did not.
You wrote,
I find different faiths in general interesting, yet I am also clear as to what I believe when asked. So I am still interested in how you define your Christian faith. John 17:3 Harold
Again, I must simply reply: I am not intrested in defining my faith in your language and on your terms. Instead my intent is to talk about faith and religious practices with Avalonia. If I at some point decide that it is profitable to define my faith to all you, I will post in the "what's your story thread" until then you can pray for my salvation (snicker) As. 17 Kassiopeia.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/01/01 10:53 PM
RE: RE: RE: YO
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One who is not willing to simply assert their allegiance to Christ as their only saviour and Lord and yet claims to be a Christian certainly does need pray and I will pray for you. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
02/02/01 12:56 AM
RE: Curiousity about Witchcraft... and Christianity.
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Now now Dubya D.
I don't think you have reason yet to believe that Cass does
not have a personal relationship with Christ. She simply denied
you request to post her statement of faith.
take it easy fella
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/02/01 9:49 AM
RE: RE: Curiousity about Witchcraft... and Christianity.
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I am not making any judgment either way, but I believe we are called to proclaim the gospel to all creatures. Last time I checked the proclaimation of the gospel means speaking it to each creature. Someone who will not adknowledge faith in Christ, yet at the same time claims to be a Christian simply needs prayer. I am making no judgment either way, but it would seem to me that anyone who claims any faith yet refuses to articulate said faith would be suspect by virture of their refusal. John 17:3 Harold
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