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... instead of the link coding which has made the page way longer than the width of the browser.

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I WAY: So which is it, a right understanding about water baptism is overtly "run like mad away from that guy" important, or is it the "please don't bother "me" with your unimportant trivialities?

Doc: Given those two options, I'll choose B. (I can't say I understood your first option).

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You simply hold that once upon a time it was necessary. I can't for the life of me imagine why this is such an important topic for you.

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Mt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David."

(They gave the correct answer(!) to the first question. But more importantly, Jesus' follow up question demonstrated that contextually speaking, they did not understand what they were speaking about. Jesus strongly alluded to the proper contextual understanding, and demonstrated how their working overview understanding was quite lacking. But don't forget, they answered the detail correctly. If only they first respected the context it belongs to, particularly the one Jesus mentioned, then perhaps the details would have fit in together without their misunderstanding.)

43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him `Lord,' saying: 44 `The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"'? 45 "If David then calls Him `Lord,' how is He his Son?" (loud baffling silence) 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

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Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

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(Even wicked people understand but suppress the truth from God) "Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness," The nature of God is loving and true, He is not a liar, His truth sets man free, not falsification of the same. We who love and obey God, must seek to separate ourselves from error, and present the unadulterated truth from God to be a faithful witness to those who need it = everyone. Hence the labels of conservative vrs liberal (theology), apostasy and false teachings, milk vrs meat, mature vrs immature, humble vrs proud, godliness vrs ungodliness and so on. We are to guard against apathy, and promote growth in the Lord.

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My guess is that you'd find yourself in the "conservative (vs. liberal), meat (vs. milk), mature (vs. immature), humble (vs. proud), godly (vs. ungodly) and promoting growth (vs. apathy) but I am confused about something.... Are you on the side of "apostasy" or "false teachings"? I think its probably the latter, but which did you have in mind?

Jus' messin' wit cha.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

Edited by - ModesofThought on 11/06/2001 6:36:59 PM

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Okay, I give, dispensational methodology it is.

Bob Hill has chosen to do 12 dispensations of salvation (though he admits as few as 3 to as many as 37 are possible), here's my 18 dispensations for biblical sexual ethics:


*Gen. 2 initiates the dispensation of nudity which is very brief. More of a flash really.

*Gen 3 introduces the dispensation of physical hiddenness which endures through until the resurrection where we will receive transfigured clothes and be asexual like the angels. 2 Sam. 6:20; 10:4; Isa. 20:2-4; 47:3 are also examples of prohibitions against nudity prior to the resurrection. To accidentally violate this command warrants a curse (Gen. 9:20-27).

*Gen 3 also intiates the dispensation of sexual tension (3:15) which is accompanied by the curse of childbearing pains for the woman (16).

*The dispensation of Patriarchy begins when Adam is punished for submitting to his wife (3:17 says, "because you have listened to the voice of your wife…") and this is not lifted until Gal. 3:28 but it is then reinstated again in 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Tim. 2. This period between Gen 3:17 and Gal. 3:28 is to be understood as the dispensation of marital strife which is followed by a very short dispensation of marital harmony (Gal. 3:28 through 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Tim. 2). After that the strife reensues. Natural enough under the dispensation of marital strife is the allowance of divorce (Deut. 24:1-4). But this is forbidded by Christ (Mark 10:1-12) presummably because our ability to keep the sexual ethical laws has increased over the many generations practice. This in some ways anticipates the immenent dispensation of marital harmony.

* Dispensation of hospitality Under this dispensation the sexual integrity of one’s daughters is understood to be subordinated to that of guests whom you may have. This is evidenced by the attempted gang rape in Sodom (Gen. 19:1-29) in which Lot was willing to give up his two daughters so that the men of Sodom could do as they please. "Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." (Gen. 19:8).

*The Dispensation of Male Gay Bashing (quite literally) began with the giving of Lev. 18:22 states the principle: "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination" (NRSV). (Lev. 20:13) adds the penalty: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them." The dispensation of female gay bashing (or alternately, the dispensation of universal gay bashing ) didn’t start until Paul wrote Rom. 1:26.

* the dispensation of "keep it in yer pants" the spilling of semen for any nonprocreative purpose--in coitus interruptus (Gen. 38:1-11), male homosexual acts, or male masturbation--was considered equivolent to abortion or murder. This dispensation is still in effect so far as the text is concerned (BUT this one does not apply to women. Who says the Bible is TOTALLY patriachal?).

* The "keep it clean" dispensation was initiated in Lev. 18:19; 15:19-24 where it was now competely disallowed to have sexual intercourse during the woman’s menstrual period. Violators where to be cut off but this penalty was not in effect during whatever time period it took Moses to get from Lev. 15:19-24 to 18:19. This dispensation insured you "ain’t gonna get none" for about half of the time. One week of the month PMS, the next MS, the rest is fair game.

* The dispensation of stoned adulterers began with the writing of Deut. 22:22. The punishment for adultery was death by stoning for both. However, it was not possible, during this dispensation, for a man to commit adultery against any of his own wives, only agianst a wife of another man. So unmarried nonvirgins were fair game. Female virginity is the issue here, male virginity is not relevent. Jesus put an end to this dispensation with the incident of the woman caught in adultery in John’s record. While I recognize that this passage is questionable in terms of textual integrity (it does not appear inthe earliest manuscripts) I assure you it is best to keep it IN the canon, if for no other reason than that it fits my dispensations so well.

* The Dispensation of Polygamy is one of the few universal dispensations that the Bible never retracts. Included in this dispensation is the Leverite Marriage which also is universal in scope. (Jesus mentions this practice without criticism in Mark 12:18-27).

* Another universal dispensation is the dispensation of unclean sex (Lev. 15:16-24). Intercourse makes you unclean until sundown and this is never retracted.

*The Dispensation of Prostitution was in effect (Gen. 38:12-19; Josh. 2:1-7) until Paul undoes it 1 Cor. 6:12-20. Again only the woman is to be regarded as sinning in prostitution during the dispensation of prostitution, whereas both are sinners after this dispensation comes to fulfillment.

For a very short period we see that Paul carried the dispensation of celebacy (1 Cor. 7). Even though it was regarded as aberrant in the Old Testament and considered heretical in 1 Tim 4:1-3. In this last instance it is clear that it is the demons who "forbid marriage".


* The "No Low Blows" Dispensation was intiated by necessity in Deut. 25:11f. "If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity". Another universal dispensation from that point forward.

* The Dispensation of using female slaves, concubines and captives as sexual objects is supported by 2 Sam. 5:13, Judges 19-21 and Num. 31:18. The justification for these practices is not clearly recinded in the either Testament.


Since I am new at this please forgive me for not having this all charted out just yet. Eventaually, I surely could have these on a time line with the institution times, the time they come to end, and the way of proper relatingbetween people during the given dispensation.[ I acknowledge significant indebtedness to Walter Wink's research and commentation on this topic.]

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That was beautiful How can I get ahold of a book that touches on those ideas? Or did you research all that?
God Bless
Paul




Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else's scrutiny.1Corinthians2:14

Edited by - faithfullservent on 11/06/2001 7:40:37 PM

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2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable [people] twist to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures.

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Paul shows just how minutely accurate and contextually sensitive God is by saying "seed" in the singular form, instead of in the plural, to clarify the truth about God's promise.

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Actually, this highlights the role of interpretation of God's word. "Seed" is both the singular AND the plural of "seed". I refer you to The Merriam Webster Dictionary definition: seed \'sed\ n, pl seed or seeds...

I guess we could check the original manuscripts, if they existed.

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Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.

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But thanks for trying.


"If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

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OK, that makes sense. But if the exactitude of Paul's word is what is important, how do you deal with his advice about staying a virgin? He clearly states that it would be the most Godly thing to do. In all your Godly striving, how are you doing on that one?

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pia: How were Lots daughters condemned for sleeping with their father? They were the mothers of nations. How was Tamar condemned for sleeping with her father-in-law, Judah? In fact, she is called righteous and is an anscestress of Jesus, as are David and Bath-Sheba (adulterors), and Rahab the prostitute. You may condemn them as sexually immoral, but God worked in and through them for redemptive purposes. How dare you write people off when God does not.

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The topic is baptism, not gay bashing and the death penalty and sexually disgracing Godly teachings like God and dispensational precepts. I was trying to have a reasonable discussion with Mr. Boyd and others. It is not open season on "me", if you want to jump on my case, start a separate thread and I may entertain such an invitation as long as the arena doesn't turn into more carnage like I've been almost constantly subjected to here.

It is possible to discuss opposing view points in a civilized and not offensive fashion. But this only works with civilized people committed to Christ like behavior.

"If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

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Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the "garments of salvation" symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the "new humanity" of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15). Thus, the words of the Apostle Paul are chanted as the newly-baptized is led in procession around the baptismal font three times as the symbol of his procession to the Kingdom of God and his entrance into eternal life: "For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia" (Gal 3:27).

In ancient times this procession was made from the baptistery to the church where the newly-baptized received Holy Communion at the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. Baptisms were normally done in connection with the Easter Liturgy; our present procession around the church building on Easter night is nothing more than our remembrance that we are baptized, that we have left the life of this world to enter the eternal life of the Risen Christ in the Kingdom of God. This new life is given to us in the life of the Church, most specifically in the Divine Liturgy. Before the baptismal procession and the reading of the Epistle and the Gospel is fulfilled in the reception of Holy Communion, however, the newly-baptized is given the gift of the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Chrismation.

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1way--lets you and I just sit and read[/]u a while.

CalciNedKaolin

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As to

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Jesus refused to cast stones at people who were condemned for sexual immorality, and Jesus had dinner with "sinners." This is the example we should follow.
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I agree, but disagree that we should not follow the rest of His teachings, like supporting the death penalty for capitol offenses.

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