 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > "SUFFERED IMPASSIBLY" | Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/30/2004 8:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Nestorius asserted unqualified divine impassibility. Cyril, in contrast, held a qualified view of the divine impassibility and maintained that neither divinity suffered alone, apart from humanity (in which case the assumption of humanity would be superfluous), nor humanity suffered alone, apart from and in sharp contrast to the impassible divinity (in which casethe reality of divine involvement in the incarnation would be put at risk).
quote:
Ooops. I almost forgot that it was a quote from St. Athanasias and not just the author. Does St. Athanasias have creditable grasp of the Greek he's writing in. Seems so. St. Cyril....
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your quotes. I'm saying you site quotations that almost, but don't quite support the claims you make. My question still stands. Where does Athanasias or Cyril or any of the other people you've quoted say that impassibility means non-passivity? I can't find it. And yes I have read what you've posted though it's pretty tedious when none of it deals with the larger of the two sides of divine impassibility you posit. Your discussion seems to be well thought out, and on other posts I've seen that, but quite freqently you quote someone who says, "Birds can fly," and you offer this as evidence that, "The sky is blue." I get the felling you maybe have read what I wrote but haven't thought about it. I don't know of a more reputable early Christian Greek lexicon than the BDAG, and it only agrees to the first of your aspects of impassibility. The quotes you use to back the second don't say what you tell us they say.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
|
feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/30/2004 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | POW: no, POW, you are not. it seems, many times, that you talk down to people who do not agree with you and you do not want to honestly engage people in dialogue, but assume you are right and that they should follow your lead in the discussion. And if they don't, you cop an arrogant attitude about the subject.
Bulletin boards are for dialogue, not simply posting your own agenda. I would suggest instead of having dialogues with yourself, you open yourself up to the fact that the Christian community is far beyond the "Orthodox Way," and that good, sincere Christians can disagree.
POW, you got something to say. But it seems you mainly like talking to yourself...if you want people to listen , you need to do some listening yourself. | | Back to Top | | |
|
feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/30/2004 10:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | Ross: That was a joke, given the context of what I was saying I thought it pretty easy to detect. Anyone who has even casually gone over POW's posts would realize he is Orthodox by nature, if not by profession...BTW, many of us second your opinion...many of us have been waiting a long time for POW's opinion on many subjects... | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/30/2004 10:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
PS-- I have enjoyed learning more about the Greek Orthodox church through PoW's interaction on the board.
 | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/30/2004 1:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
epathen apathos
38 relatives here for there days of family reunion. No time.
Sahid, I don't know Greek. the above addresses any lexicon doubts you have. Athanasias ans Cyril wrote those words. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/30/2004 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid, frankly, you just have to do a better job of reading what is here already. What can I say. Its too frustrating to perceive that you want someone else to do your work for you. (It sounds whiney.)
You got stuck on "that impassibility means non-passivity", but what you should see plainly in the first post and in a few others is that while the "suffer" part is as we expect it to be, the "passible" part is not what we refer to in daily life. Accordingly my post said:
"the suffering did not happen to him by surprise, or by force beyond his ability to handle it. It was not a rollercoaster that zoomed out of control. Christ was not "passive" in his suffering. He chose to die for you and me."
And a quote from someone in a source said:
"—God is impassible. This means, not that God is impassive and unfeeling (a fre-quent misunderstanding), but that no created beings can inflict pain, suffering and distress on him at their own will. In so far as God enters into suffering and grief… it is by his own deliberate decision; he is never his creatures‘ helpless victim.“–"
The quote said it better than I did; but to my eyes its the same thing.
That's simple: God suffered in the flesh when and insofar as he chose to, "for us and our salvation" (Nicene Creed).
But THAT should not be unfamiliar to anybody. Its central to the faith.
What is wonderful -- my personal opinion, then, is not speculation but wonder and awe -- is that the savior taking our humanity as his own flesh and confronting OUR weaknesses, by his choice at every moment and in every aspect of our weakness, transformed humanity. THAT'S COOL!!!
Neither Athanasias nor Cyril were trying to be Scholastic theologians hundreds of years before their time. They were dealing with the Cross and our salvation, with our transformation and liberation. THAT is what the "impassibility" of Christ is about.
epathen apathos
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/30/2004 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | | If you want to fit this all into the few choices that particular dictionary gives, look at "harm" and interpret it to be the issue of whether one is forced to do that what is not chosen freely. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/30/2004 5:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Incarnation of the Reason and Wisdom of God,
One of the all-holy Trinity, Who created all that has been made,
and was born of the flesh of the all-holy Mother of God
and thus renewed the entire cosmos
And it begins: The impassive passion, the willed sharing in our suffering; and with his actions the transfiguring of the cosmos...bit by bit.
quote:
... God according to the will and power of God; that He was truly born of a virgin, was baptized by John, in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him ...
(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans)
More and more, a little bit at a time...
| | Back to Top | | |
|
feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/30/2004 5:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Same picture at the end of column one as in column two...cool...if only there was a point beyond the tip of POW's nose...
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/30/2004 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
Same picture at the end of column one as in column two...cool...if only there was a point beyond the tip of POW's nose...
T H E P O I N T :
The impassive passion: the willed sharing in our suffering; and with his actions the transfiguring of the cosmos...bit by bit.
Incarnation of the Reason and Wisdom of God,
One of the all-holy Trinity, Who created all that has been made,
and was born of the flesh of the all-holy Mother of God
and thus renewed the entire cosmos.
That's the point.
(Cut it out, feel'n.)
BTW, when I do have an opinion I say it. But some times I want to think about something before settling. But in this case "AWE" is more meet than 'opinion.' | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/30/2004 6:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | there are some really neat things athanasias was talking about, along the line of our being naturally passible (changeable with the blowing wind--if i had to illustrate it) while the deified humanity of christ by virtue of being joined to the eternal word was impassible, and that as we by the spirit are 'in christ' we too can profit from the benefit of that up-grade (again, modern illustration). neat stuff. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2004 2:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
If these words mean (2)"suffered not against will", then they don't translate to the English words "suffer impassibly." ... I'll grant you that Athanasias could use the Greek words in the second sense. ... Athanasias may very well have argued for "epathen apathos", but that does not mean he argued for "suffering impassibly". "Impassibly" is not always a good translation for "apathos". From what you tell me Athanasias ... did believe that "Theos epathen apathos". [/font=Book Antiqua]
If you are going to read Athanasias at some point, get ready for the term, because, there is a lot more (as in my post before yours) were that sort of term is a useful tool for exploring a lot of wonderful ground.
But where you say "that does not mean he argued for..." I'd give guide-advice that such a single matter is not what his goal was. Athanasias was talking about the CROSS and the salvation and transformation of the Christian. "On the Incarnation" is not a theoretical tretise--its dynamic.
Thanks for your reply. (Glad you began to catch on.)
Peace
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
|
feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 7/31/2004 8:57 PM (GMT -6) | | | (Glad you began to catch on). Sahid aren't you happy now? I've SUFFERED IMPASSIBLY in these posts. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 7/31/2004 10:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
POW: When Christians (like St. Athanasias did) say that Christ "SUFFERED IMPASSIBLY" they are not spouting nonsense!
quote:
Me: If these words mean (1)"suffered without suffering", they are nonsense.
If these words mean (2)"suffered not against will", then they don't translate to the English words "suffer impassibly." In English "suffering impassibly" is most certainly #1. I'll grant you that Athanasias could use the Greek words in the second sense. What we can't do is translate "epathen apathos" as "suffered impassibly".
quote:
POW: (Glad you began to catch on.)
I still say "suffered impassibly" is nonsense. I said your Athanasias quote, "epathen apathos" could work, but I still firmly disagree with you, POW. Athanasias may have made sense, but your translation and interpretation do not. quote:
But where you say "that does not mean he argued for..." I'd give guide-advice that such a single matter is not what his goal was. Athanasias was talking about the CROSS and the salvation and transformation of the Christian. "On the Incarnation" is not a theoretical tretise--its dynamic.
It's wonderful that he had broader subject matter, but he apparently did make a case for "epathen apathos". Even if Athanasias could speak English and responded to your original post, you have given no reason to believe that he would agree with you. Christ never suffered impassibly, and I doubt that Anthanasias ever agrued that He did. The only thing that I have caught on to here is that Athanasias is being misrepressented.
Let me spell it out. In your original post the second, third, and fifth paragraphs make sense. The first and fouth do not. You have offered no reason to believe that Athanasias thought Christ "suffered impassibly". Your translation of "epathen apathos" is correct in paragraphs 2, 3, and 5, but you use a different traslation in 1 and 4. Impassible suffering is not what you say it is.
Your quotes tell us that Athanasias believed Christ suffered "voluntarily" not "impassibly". These words do not mean the same thing. Not even close. They're both the same part of speech, but that's about as far as it goes. The only way your agruement makes sense is if we assume that all suffering is involuntary, but if we do this "suffered impassibly" changes from nonsense to tautology. Athanasias didn't use "impassibly" in a different way than we do; he didn't use it at all (within the resources that you've provided).
The point that you are driving at is a good one, but it has nothing to do with "impassive passion". The opposite of passive is active, not impassive. There is a case to be made that the Greek "apathos" can sort of mean "voluntarily", there is no reason to think it means "impassible".
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 2:30 AM (GMT -6) | | First, its not my point, my opinion, nor my arguement.
Second, YOU concluded that Athanasias held nothing about the impassivity of God. Don't know why you did that. But it is baseless. Rather, you have a different idea of what impassive means, and you read it back into history. Doesn't work.
Most of what you said below has to do with my making errors. I took no actions. But you presumed lots on Athanasias without reading him. I can't agree with you then.
My "opinion" is that this is a "politicized" matter, and you hold definitions for political reasons. You won't get far in Athanasias with a anachronistic reading of what he is saying. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 2:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
(Glad you began to catch on). Sahid aren't you happy now? I've SUFFERED IMPASSIBLY in these posts.
He's not happy now. But he has only begun to catch on. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
It's your understanding of the English language that is lacking.
Insults? Maybe you would rather spend your time elsewhere?
As for me, I'm digesting something and using this thread as a tool. There are many ways that "passive" and "impassible" are used by Athanasias; but I won't share them with this thread at the moment.
As for you, you strike me, on the surface of things here, as being a bit obsessive about how other people have to think and express. also, you strike me as being someone who maybe took some classes in a dead language or two, but not much in the way of being bi-lingual or tr-lingal, or having an linguistics background. Seems that way because you are prepared to tell other people how they have to express things.
Dr. Ken Pike got maybe a Nobel for his theory of "tagmemics" where both "emic" and "etic" aspects of language are recognized -- like expressed and unexpress genetic traits, languatges have both the "rules" of what "has" to be and then also the actual aspect of what actually happens. the seeming inner contradition that you seem repelled by in "suffered impassively" (which is a scholarly expression not my own but common enough that a scholar with an Oxford PhD uses it and cites it) is fully congruent with typical terms and expressions and literary comparisons in Eastern and Western Christianity. It fits the neighborhood.
Further, even somone only knowing chinese but lettering a certain two words on a sign will notice that "Epathen apathos" has "e-PATH-en" and "a-PATH-os." The presence of "path" in both screems for attention. It is visually poetic, and lingually poetic. The seeming contradiction, in whatever proportion, is used by the author by conscious selection. As a reader, I like it. And you can have your own opinion in the matter....
But I don't have a clue why that doesn't occur to you. But then I don't know you. | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | I get a lot out of the combination of parallelism and juxtaposition in this liturgical form:
quote:
The Lord of all has taught us in a parable to shun the boastful thoughts of the evil Pharisees; and he has instructed all of us not to think more highly than we should. He himself became our pattern and example, for he emptied himself even unto death upon the Cross. Let us therefore render thanks with the Publican and say: O God who suffered for us and yet remained impassible, deliver us from the passions and save our souls.
THE THIRD SUNDAY IN LENT: THE ADORATION OF THE PRECIOUS AND LIFE-GIVING CROSS -- AT MATINS
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 1:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
for the Feast of the Transfiguration of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (August 6)
quote:
KONTAKION in Tone 7
On the Mountain You were Transfigured, O Christ God,
And Your disciples beheld Your glory as far as they could see it;
So that when they would behold You crucified,
They would understand that Your suffering was voluntary,
And would proclaim to the world,
That You are truly the Radiance of the Father!
I think that I remember Sahid pairing "suffering" with "voluntary." Here it is, above. And it is true. But when "suffering" and "impassible" are paired, it seem in order to set up other emphasis. Along the lines of:
"O God who suffered for us and yet remained impassible, deliver us from the passions and save our souls.
"
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 3:15 PM (GMT -6) | | From Paul Evdokimov's "Struggle with God" jbburnett.com/resources/evdokimov_strugglewGod1966.pdf
quote:
Footnote-1
The man who declared himself God is unsupportable for the Jews and God-become-man is a scandal for the Greeks. The Old Testament knew God but was closed to the idea of a suffering God; the Greek mysteries knew the image of a suffering God, but they did not know God. The New Testament reveals both.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2004 3:18 PM (GMT -6) | | From Paul Evdokimov's "Struggle with God" jbburnett.com/resources/evdokimov_strugglewGod1966.pdf
quote:
(top, page ten)
Gospel speaks is never the mechanical destruction of evil, but a cure, and Christ “has conquered death by death”. As long as the last human being has not freely participated in this victory, evil will continue to condition history. God could take our place in order to suffer and to die, but he cannot do so for our acts of freedom, of choice and of love. Liberty frees only the one who desires it. That is why the one who desires nothingness will have it in his own way, at least for a fleeting moment. No human exigency equals the divine exigency for freedom for man. This is what forms God’s hell before forming man’s hell, and that is why God descends there.
| | Back to Top | | |
| 217 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 11:33 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|