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lbeck
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Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 8/18/2004 2:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
What does forgiveness feel like to the forgiver? Can you still be angry while also forgiving?
Interesting point. I don't know the answer. My first course of reasoning in such matters where I can't find a clear answer is the good ole WWJD approach. The first thing that came to mind is "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." In this case, I think that Christ was not angry with his executioners. On the other hand, I get the sense of anger in His dealings with the Pharisees and their attempts to entrap him. My concept of grace is that Christ forgave the Pharisees, but did he continue to feel “anger” following the confrontations? Were his emotions more akin to disappointment? I don’t think it was a totally “turn the other cheek” situation or Christ wouldn’t have turned the Pharisees’ words in the clever ways that he did to show them the err of their ways. Did he do this with educational motives, or to “get back” at them? I’m thinking that it was more the former.
I’m convinced that anger prior to conflict can be a good thing if one is conflicted by ungodly situation. There is no question in my mind that Christ was angry with the temple-moneychangers. Anger in these situations is sometimes the motivating factor. But anger after forgiveness... I don’t know.
I know that for me personally, it has become much easier to withhold anger when I am clearly wronged by “the world” (gee, it’s nice to use these Christian terms on a forum where they may actually be understood). Hopefully, it’s not from pious arrogance, but I actually pity those who try to unjustly harm me (usually emotionally rather than physically). They generally are battling a torment that I don’t have to deal with. Harm from a fellow Christian hurts more, but at least I have a better opportunity for dialog, which again mitigates the anger.
I know that I haven’t answered your question – just some thoughts.
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
What does forgiveness feel like to the forgiver? Can you still be angry while also forgiving?
Sahid,
That is an excellent question. I have learned, in my own walk with God, that forgiveness is NOT necessarily linked with some other things. It is not necessary to trust someone when you forgive them, perhaps not even wise.
And, your question about being angry while forgiving...well, I believe that there may be steps to forgiving. I think the most important thing about forgiveness is that it releases the person who has done us wrong - if we are granting forgiveness, and perhaps (perhaps) establishes some kind of new relationship, or foundation upon which to build a new relationship. Sometimes it may just be an act of selflessness, so that everybody (including the injured party) can "move on" in their lives, in their walk with God...
Yes, I think that anger may surface from time to time, even when you have voiced your forgiveness to someone - or even if you haven't "voiced" it, but just forgiven them in your heart. Anger is a natural part of the grieving process, and often a breach in relationship is a loss. The most important thing about the anger (I think) is that you find a healthy way to express that anger, and that you don't hurt the person you are angry at (intentionally anyway).
Short answer: Yes.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
What does forgiveness feel like to the forgiver? Can you still be angry while also forgiving?
Guess I missed the first part of your question: What does forgiveness feel like to the forgiver? What does it feel like to you Sahid? I guess that is subjective somewhat - and probably depends on what is being forgiven etc.
The first thing that I thought of is that it feels like restored relationship with the Father. But it may feel like a new beginning. It may feel like a relief, being able to sleep at night, like the world around you looks new. I forgave a brother who hurt me terribly, and it dramatically changed my life: my walk with the Father, my relationships with others, fear disappeared from my life etc, etc (even wrote a book). I do not have a new relationship with him, though I'd love to. I pray for him...he's a lost and hurting soul. I do not "trust him" - probably because I may not ever have that opportunity, or be put in a place where that is put to the test - again. But I can honestly say I have no anger toward him - but then, that forgiving was a process, which finally came to completion about 2 and a half years ago.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/18/2004 9:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Can you still be angry while also forgiving?
Short answer: No
Anger and resentment eat away at us. It is through forgiveness we are set free from the bondage of the perpetrator. Without complete forgiveness, we are kept captive to the very wrong that hurt us in the first place. Forgiveness can do more for the forgiver then the forgiven; the perpetrator might not care less if you forgive them or not. But if you don’t forgive them, they actually are still hurting you, yes hurting you with the deep anger and resentment that dwells inside your heart. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/18/2004 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Short answer: Yes.
Hi Moon,
Maybe your answer of "yes", can we forgive and still be angry, is why we don’t see eye to eye about divorce. If a couple could not forgive each other without holding on to anger, well then I guess I would agree with you about divorce. But personally, I don’t think that is true forgiveness. Trust is another issue, but anger and resentment have no place in a healthy relationship.
Blessings,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 8/18/2004 12:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Forgivness, is a two part thing: I don't think you can simpl,y say, "I forgive you," if the sin has been a continuous process over a long period of time. In that case, a person can forgive the act, but must deal with the feelings associated with it. To deny that the feelings are there is what eats a6t a person, not the feelings themselves.
Yes, a person can certainly forgive and still be angry. The process of letting go of such feelings takes time. | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/18/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6) | | I also should say that I find the popular idea that "you must forgive unconditionally" to be irrational, psychologically unsound, and most of all, unscriptural. Jesus said we were to be forgiving in the same way God is forgiving, and nowhere in Scripture is God shown to forgive without conditions of repentance (a true change of heart), atonement, and a faithfulness to one's commitment to change being met by the offender.
Jesus said, "If your brother sins against you and repents, forgive him," (even 70 x 7). He never says, "You have to forgive without conditions."
I should hasten to add that we must certainly guard our hearts against the emotions of anger, resentment, bitterness, and ill-will against those whom we are offended by, but, again, forgiveness is NOT an emotion, it is a choice one makes to set aside punishment (even holding something against someone in one's heart) in favor of mercy and in light of the other's repentance.
Forgiveness without conditions isn't really forgiveness, it's just sympathy, and we certainly shouldn't sympathize with an unrepentant person who refuses to admit they have done wrong.
Does anyone REALLY believe that we should forgive without conditions? Why our country would be overrun by evil if we didn't resist it by imprisoning and (even executing) some offenders. Paul doesn't seem to reflect the popular "warm fuzzy" idea of forgiveness that is so common in our "Christian" culture today:
1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Should you not rather have mourned, so that he who has done this would have been removed from among you? 3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present I have already pronounced judgment 4in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 6Your boasting is not a good thing. Do you not know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?
7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch, as you really are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore, let us celebrate the festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral persons— 10not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since you would then need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother or sister who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber. Do not even eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? 13God will judge those outside. ‘Drive out the wicked person from among you.’
My how judgmental Paul could be! No doubt the "judge not" crowd on this board would call Paul a hypocritical Pharisee.
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/18/2004 2:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Short answer: Yes.
Hi Moon,
Maybe your answer of "yes", can we forgive and still be angry, is why we don’t see eye to eye about divorce. If a couple could not forgive each other without holding on to anger, well then I guess I would agree with you about divorce. But personally, I don’t think that is true forgiveness. Trust is another issue, but anger and resentment have no place in a healthy relationship.
Blessings,
Mark
Mark,
We agree on the sanctity of marriage. I was referring to an abusive, unsafe marriage. I do not believe in divorce. God does not believe in divorce either - but there are situations where staying in a marriage is unsafe.
As I said, I do not experience anger in forgiving my brother - but it took time - and I want you to know - that when I forgive my husband for something - that I forgive him, and do not harbour anger. You have misunderstood me Mark. Now, in an abusive relationship - where a husband (or wife) hits their spouse, or abuses them some other way; repeatedly asking forgiveness, but not changing their behaviour...hurt and anger may result; anger in the form of tears, depression, physical problems... It is not cut and dry. It's alright to be angry - when anger is "called for". When you deny your feelings - more problems result. Anger is a signal that something else needs to be done, or resolved, I believe.
I guess I have a heart for people who are hurting in impossible situations - ongoing painful ones, or those who have been hurt, and need to work through that hurt. The grieving process involves anger, as well as other emotions.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Jesus got angry, and he forgave.
Yes, but was his anger and forgiveness simultaneously directed at the same persons, and do we ever find him forgiving without conditions?
So if my indignation is righteous, I shouldn't forgive?
Matt. 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Doesn't sound to me like Jesus advocated forgiveness without repentance.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Jesus got angry, and he forgave.
Yes, but was his anger and forgiveness simultaneously directed at the same persons, and do we ever find him forgiving without conditions?
Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive these people, because they don't know what they are doing." And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Mark 11:25
But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Jesus got angry, and he forgave.
Yes, but was his anger and forgiveness simultaneously directed at the same persons, and do we ever find him forgiving without conditions?
Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive these people, because they don't know what they are doing." And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.
Are we to assume that everyone under the sound of his voice was thus automatically forgiven by the Father? God wants to forgive and reconcile the whole world to himself--what prevents it from happening?
Just because Jesus expressed the Father's disposition to forgive does not require us to believe that there was actual forgiveness of those who did not seek it.
Regardless of the response of the Father, was it not in Jesus’ heart to forgive? | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Mark 11:25
But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too."
I certainly agree that we should never bear grudges. However, the issue is more complex than the typically one-sided "you HAVE to forgive unconditionally" dogma recited by so many today:
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. 5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Regardless of the response of the Father, was it not in Jesus’ heart to forgive?
Yes, we should certainly have a disposition to forgive, just as Jesus had. This is only possible by His Spirit within us.
I agree with you JEE (and I'm sure with others), that forgiveness is a choice. I do believe His spirit empowers us to forgive in supernatural way as well. I also know that we are flesh and blood, and that He understands that, and that He is far more patient, and compassionate with us than our brothers and sister in Christ - that is why there is so much in the NT about loving one another, submitting to one another in love, bearing one anothers' burdens, praying with and for one another...
He created us with our God given emotions - anger as well, and anger is likely the hardest emotion to deal with personally, or in others. I grew up afraid of it. To this day, when there is anger, my tendency is to want to smooth things over.
I have seen what happens when anger is not expressed in a healthy way, when it is suppressed, or denied.
I do agree that in complete, and God honouring forgiveness - that there will be no anger - but I also know that being human, that forgiveness may come in stages or steps, and that there needs to be (in some situations) repentance. I also know it is possible to forgive someone who is not repentant - but, if you continue to subject yourself to hurt (ongoing) - that anger will result, and justifiably so. I think anger is a protective emotion that God created us with. It signals (or may signal) us that we are in danger, and need to act; just as fear does.
Each situation is so unique, so subjective; individual - but God also knows that, and knows each heart - intimately. I count on that.
Then there's that little matter of free will...
I think this ties in with the thread on the "enemy being us". Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. Anger hurts the person who is angry, and must be dealt with.
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/18/2004 8:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Mark 11:25
But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too."
I certainly agree that we should never bear grudges. However, the issue is more complex than the typically one-sided "you HAVE to forgive unconditionally" dogma recited by so many today:
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. 5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
John, I agree with you that forgiveness is not a feeling but an act. But there are feelings associated with the act or lack of it. You will carry the burden if you do not forgive. The perpetrator might be glad that the wounds are not healed. To forgive is to bring closure to the wound; you will still bear the scar. Repenting is also an act with feelings attached. One cannot force a heart to repent, that is the responsibility of the perpetrator. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/19/2004 6:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j... if you continue to subject yourself to hurt (ongoing) - that anger will result, and justifiably so. I think anger is a protective emotion that God created us with. It signals (or may signal) us that we are in danger, and need to act; just as fear does.
Hi Moon,
I agree with almost everything you say, even thou you might only see me responding to things I don’t agree with. 
So without further delay, I disagree with you. TRUST is the protective emotion God created us with, not anger. We discern are level of trust by our pain. Pain yields fear, fear produces anger and anger completes the cycle by generating pain. Forgiveness relieves the pain and breaks the cycle.
Blessings,
Mark
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/19/2004 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j... if you continue to subject yourself to hurt (ongoing) - that anger will result, and justifiably so. I think anger is a protective emotion that God created us with. It signals (or may signal) us that we are in danger, and need to act; just as fear does.
Hi Moon,
I agree with almost everything you say, even thou you might only see me responding to things I don’t agree with.
So without further delay, I disagree with you. TRUST is the protective emotion God created us with, not anger. We discern are level of trust by our pain. Pain yields fear, fear produces anger and anger completes the cycle by generating pain. Forgiveness relieves the pain and breaks the cycle.
Blessings,
Mark
Mark,
I have a friend who said this to me recently: "Anger is failed expectation". I believe he's right. I do believe that fear/anger can protect. They are the emotions that produce adrenalin in a dangerous situation - the "flight or fight" hormones that enable us to react when we need to. They are definitely a signal. Trust is a much more pleasant emotion - but can be a much more dangerous one without the other two emotions. Emotions - God given, wonderful, but complicated.
I agree with you that trust is a wonderful emotion - and is essential for building, or rebuilding relationships. There are some situations though where forgiveness is possible - even necessary, but where trust is not advisable. I was going to give you an example, but I believe you can think of your own here.
Forgiveness does relieve pain, but does not necessarily alleviate mistrust -and depending on the situation, and given free will, may not break the cycle. I've learned that you can only change yourself with God, and pray for others. You cannot change someone else.
It sounds like you've done a lot of reading/research into this area Mark. I appreciate your insights. I'm not an expert - but I have spent a lot of years ministering to people in pain, and have experienced firsthand the transforming power of forgiveness.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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